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I’ really excited to get my CSM back on the field. The new kits look like how I’ve always imagined Chaos Marines would look. I’ll be doing a Black Legion Force with Abaddon leading it for sure.

I’m tempted to use my old CSM to make a Red Corsairs detachment just so I’m not starved for CPs.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I am going to hold off judgement until the new book has been out a while. That said, it definitely feels like more of a second printing with the current-ish information and not really worth the trouble on GW's part since it will be about 6 months before it starts to act like the current codex.

I mean, their own description says this:

If you already own a copy of Chaos Space Marines and Vigilus Ablaze, you'll find this book a handy compilation. However, you do not need a copy of the original codex or Vigilus Ablaze to use this product!

And the real advantage here is you don't have to buy three books just to start being able to play the army. At least till December it has current points values, and barring another major release this year for chaos undivided in 40k it'll be current for quite a while.

40 bucks in books is a lot more tempting than 130 for the old codex, vigilus 2 and CA.

I wouldn't be overly surprised to see books like this along side the story supplements for major releases and I'm kinda looking forward to the reaction when it happens for space marines. It keeps the barrier to entry low, tempts old players to get the condensed version of the rules, and drags the people who complain about having to buy a lore book back into the market.

It's not world shattering, but it's a solid enough idea. Let alone being accompanied by releases I'm into enough that it's threatening my painting queue.

 warboss wrote:
Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris.

Not sure why they'd want to do that. I thought the whole point of CSM was to be like SM but worse? Why screw that up by giving them primaris stats? If anything, squatting the oldmarines will allow Chaos to inherit all the stuff the loyalists used to lord over them but now don't want anymore (like thunderhammers).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall?

Plastic Havocs.

That is all.

yeah that's a very much "about time" shocks me GW took as long as they did

Chaos Marines can stay as they are. They just need to be cheaper in points because their profile is really bad in the context of this edition (even more so than previous editions). I imagine the reticence to do that is that GW would feel compelled to make basic loyal marines cheaper, which is something they seem loathe to do, as it would make their Primaris line less appealing.

I'm actually really feeling the new releases. Do I wish they had more? Yeah. Could they have better rules? Sure. But getting some multipose models is great.

Now let's hope that we get some more varied releases in the coming months, for Chaos and Xenos alike.

In the context of my own army as a black legion player... I am pretty happy with this release.

Host Raptorial has made warp talons truly viable for the first time, raptors are overall decent and a couple of those black legion unique strategems are brutal on the table for large units (merciless killers especially).

Base Marines seem fine now, they won't top ITC tables but in 90% of metas they will do just fine! Especially using Red Corsair trait for replacing units strat and CP generation.

Possessed for the first time ever are truly fieldable in a big way. Fantastic!!! If done correctly it would give almost any opponent fits in attempting to remove them and they have alot of output potential

I think this update overall really brought CSM up a big notch.

Main thing I'm not excited about is chaos Marines being $60 for 10. Can I even combo parts from them with normal iron armor bits for my iron warriors? Will the leg/torso/arm amalgamations let me do parts swaps like that?

 ph34r wrote:
Main thing I'm not excited about is chaos Marines being $60 for 10. Can I even combo parts from them with normal iron armor bits for my iron warriors? Will the leg/torso/arm amalgamations let me do parts swaps like that?

By looking at the sprues for both the regular CSM and the Havocs, you should be able to glue whatever arms you want to the bodies. And it takes very little to cut down a peg to make any backpack lay flush against the panel and glue it. And other than beakies or something similar, you should be able to use just about any head you want on them.

having just put together my shadowspear CSMs I gotta say asteticly this is a great design. I think the priamris clean almost taticool look and the chaos contrast nicely with a real baroque look.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.

They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

Superb new models. The new CSM design knocks it out the park.

Great new rules. People are under-estimating the impact of all these little changes imo. Alpha Legion CSM in 5-man squads with a rotor cannon, for example, put out 10 Bolter shots and 8 heavy Bolter shots, and are hard to shift. Pretty nice troop. Then you have the many new detachments - lots of fun to be had there, love the way they're not locked to legions, like the loyalist ones are. Finally, Havocs. I think they might be the best anti-horde unit in the game now. I'm a happy bunny.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.

They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

Thank you for the swift response!

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.

They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

Thank you for the swift response!

A quick photo of previous plastic CSM, DV Chosen, Shadowspear CSM and Shadowspear Interceptor

 blood reaper wrote:
Also, considering it'll now be a minimum of £100+ to build a 'standard' force of a Chaos Lord and ten Chaos Space Marines, I am even less inclined to directly support Games Workshop.

So 35 £ (new Chaos Space Marines) plus 8-15 £ (various Chaos Lords, from Night Lords one to termie/sorcerer kit) is somehow 100 £ now?

And that is without considering the 25% discount from local shops in the UK, making the 'point' even sillier...

 Sersi wrote:
I have to agree. The fact that Primaris exist saps does curb my enthusiasm for this new Chaos release. Honestly, I just prefer them because there larger models and better proportioned. I'll buy at least a box of CSM and Havocs. Then just bits order the parts I need to continue converting more chaos-ified Primaris. I've never bought any of the daemon-engines, and even though the new ones are much better don't really fit my idea of what the Emperor's Children would field. The new Obliterators and Greater Possessed are simply ugly, like the Helbrute.

I find this funny because this CSM release alone got 100x more love than every single primaris release combined. See idiocy that is primaris "melee" squads that can't, actually, take any real melee weapons (ditto for vanguard captain, literally first such SM HQ in their whole history), or such uninspired rules as vanguard lieutenant hitting twice because he has two knives (which strangely enough aren't combat knives unlike the whole rest of the range and as such both are worse weapon than single knife every other primaris has). Can you imagine howls of CSM players if squad sarges were actually better in melee than chaos champions and lords?

That said, I really like looks of vanguard and will hold any criticism until I see full rules, but I won't be holding my breath. Especially after that slap to the face of all primaris and DW players that was GW's decision to forget the idiotic 'no bit no rules' policy for once to give CSM players full access to thunder hammers, bit found nowhere in their whole range. Because they surely won't be bought from third party knockoff peddlers, while tons of official, all-GW marine power weapons get to languish in bit boxes, banned despite making negative impact on shiny new range GW wants to sell...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.

I can speak to him: unless my tired memory is playing tricks on me, he's exactly the same cost (as of his release) as a Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and a SM thunder hammer. And his rules effectively are the same as the generic one with the slightly unusual wargear choice, except that he also provides his lord buff to the BSF keyword models and requires they deploy near him. He's the most generic special character I've noticed in a while. If they add the BSF units with the new cultist "not a space marine" rule, he'd be essentially identical to a generic character with specific gear.

Yeas, You are all over what I was looking for information on, That's for the heads up!

I think one of the key things I love the most about this release is that it makes my CSM army a true CSM army now. I got little reason to play cultist unless for bubble wrap. I got tons of reasons to actually bring CSM now. +3CP ? yes! tide of traitors on CSM? yes!! And havocs are basically heavy support CSM too. My army looks like an actual CSM army now and I love it.

And I don't know how competitive it will be. But there are lots of themes for my army I really want to try now. Daemon Engines theme, raptorial host theme, even tons of terminator armor in a bringers of despair theme because chain axe combi bolter terminators are now a thing.

It just adds a ton of flavour. And that I feel is far better than some borg standard like army list that everyone will feel compelled to bring because everything else is just so bad.The 40 cultist thing was so jarring and unfluffy. I mean, I was a CSM army, but somehow, we were supposed to rely on that 40 man cultist blob... Cultists are mere fodder!!! They should have never become our key lynchpin unit.

This release brings back the CSM to our CSM armies in a big way and I love it because of that.

All in all it is a typical Codex/ Campaign book release.

Shadow Spear is a good start for a new Black Legion player, and I'm picking one up for the Blackstone Fortress guys I have to round them out.

I have my issues with the release, but not enough to make me throw too much shade.

( Edited, because I sounded salter then I really am in the matter.)

 Irbis wrote:
that slap to the face of all primaris and DW players that was GW's decision to forget the idiotic 'no bit no rules' policy for once to give CSM players full access to thunder hammers, bit found nowhere in their whole range

Yeah, it's pretty dumb. I think that the easiest way to allow Mallex in would have been to give lords the option. While I think that it's good that they have access (and there are a few other old bits of gear that fit). it's pretty absurd how much they opened that up when they've been rigid for a lot of other releases.

I agree that Primaris and DW have suffered a fair bit for not having some really simple kitbash options available. GW's been so irritatingly cautious when the issue had to with available parts, not parts specific to a given kit... Let's hope this marks a design shift rather than a hypocritical anomaly.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think one of the key things I love the most about this release is that it makes my CSM army a true CSM army now. I got little reason to play cultist unless for bubble wrap. I got tons of reasons to actually bring CSM now. +3CP ? yes! tide of traitors on CSM? yes!! And havocs are basically heavy support CSM too. My army looks like an actual CSM army now and I love it.

And I don't know how competitive it will be. But there are lots of themes for my army I really want to try now. Daemon Engines theme, raptorial host theme, even tons of terminator armor in a bringers of despair theme because chain axe combi bolter terminators are now a thing.

It just adds a ton of flavour. And that I feel is far better than some borg standard like army list that everyone will feel compelled to bring because everything else is just so bad.The 40 cultist thing was so jarring and unfluffy. I mean, I was a CSM army, but somehow, we were supposed to rely on that 40 man cultist blob... Cultists are mere fodder!!! They should have never become our key lynchpin unit.

This release brings back the CSM to our CSM armies in a big way and I love it because of that.

Know your own fluff, AL, IW and WB rely on massively differing quality of cultists far more then on their marines.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.

Well, they are not smaller

Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.

There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...

Price list is out

Terminators $60, £35, €45
Havocs $55, £32.50

USD and GBP prices are confirmed Havocs are either €40 or €42 depending on what rate they pick.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.

There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...

"Heretic Astartes" excuse you!

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.

There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...

"Heretic Astartes" excuse you!

Chaos Space Marines is correct. Heretic Astartes refers to the wider faction that includes Death Guard and Thousand Sons; any army that exclusively features the other legions and Renegade Chapters is a Chaos Space Marines army.

"Well Actually" 2x combo! :p

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.

For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.

There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...

What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.

And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.

Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......

In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.

And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.


Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.

tneva82 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.

For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.

Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.

There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...

What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.

And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.

Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......

In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.

And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.


Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.

I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.