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So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.

I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.

The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.

This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.

What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

I think it's a decent model set, but I'm not in love with the idea of trying to fix an underperforming codex with formations (especially when they're making a new version anyway!). That was a big part of why I lost interest in 7th ed.

But I was unlikely to pick them up, as I'm too busy with Genestealer Cults, and if I'm going to do a Chaos army I'll be waiting for a Slaanesh codex.

I'm not a chaos player (aside from a few Death Guard I have for Kill Team).

I pre-ordered Abaddon. The model looks really cool.

I just need to kit-bash a Kardan Stronos wielding the Axe of Medusa so he can remove Abaddon's weak, fleshy head from his weak, fleshy body.

Instead of the fight we deserve on Vigilus, we'll have weak-ass Calgar get his butt kicked, I'm sure.

Quasistellar wrote:
I'm not a chaos player (aside from a few Death Guard I have for Kill Team).

I pre-ordered Abaddon. The model looks really cool.

I just need to kit-bash a Kardan Stronos wielding the Axe of Medusa so he can remove Abaddon's weak, fleshy head from his weak, fleshy body.

Instead of the fight we deserve on Vigilus, we'll have weak-ass Calgar get his butt kicked, I'm sure.

I dunno. That would require that GW wrote fluff in which the Ultramarines lose.

It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.

I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.

I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.

The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.

This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.

What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?

I'm very happy with what I am seeing. I've never played a Chaos faction before, so I am really excited for this. I think Iron Warriors is going to be where I land, I really like the idea of Havoks and Oblits supporting my Chaos MARINES (won't be running any silly cultists). I'm also really excited to be able to pick up a deflier, its long been one of my most favorite models, and I think it will fit right at home!

My plan doesn't include any other deamon engines at the moment, but as the summer goes on I am looking to expand the initial army.

Funny thing is that I'm considering getting rid of my other armies and fully investing here.

We'll be better at winning the fair fights. We got nothing new to help us win the unfair fights.

So, yeah. It's OK I guess. I will be building a Daemon Engine list with like 12 models in it at some point.

I'm happy to see more options available. That's nice, especially since they aren't all 'false' or 'trap' options (unlike a majority of the Legion traits which only seem useful in a CAAC environment, where self sabotage is apparently the aim of the game).

I'm not happy to see the fact that the bog standard troops of the army cost £35 despite having little in the way of customisation or options (I can buy like 30 models from Warlord Games for the same price).

GWs Chaos designs also range from dumpster fire to 'hey that's pretty good'. The Obliterator sculpts are horrendous (I hate all that 'big lumps of flesh' aesthetic, it's incredibly lazy). Abaddon is real neat, the normal Chaos Space Marines are cool bar some really bad head sculpts. Thankfully that's easy to fix.

The Cultists loss of legion traits is a pain. I'll miss my -1 to hit Cultists.

Also, considering it'll now be a minimum of £100+ to build a 'standard' force of a Chaos Lord and ten Chaos Space Marines, I am even less inclined to directly support Games Workshop.

 warboss wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.

This but unironically.

Also anyone who uses the ''''''counter-argument'''''' of' '''whining''' to dismiss criticism should be ready to have any points they make summarily dismissed in turn.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.

I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.

I think this kind of sums up my feelings too. Personally I like Primaris marines. I think they are the size and have the rules that marines always should have had. My opinion is that they should have just called them “the new marine range” and let people replace their models as they saw fit.

Now they’ve got Primaris and normal marines they’ve tied themselves in knots. They probably aren’t going to release any non-primaris loyalists but are doing so with chaos. So now chaos marines are basically just weak marines, and that’s not cool at all.

As you say, they should have just given all marines 2 wounds and attacks, and made them all Primaris scale from now on.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris. Oldmarines/Adeptus Secundus though have no future either in the fluff, rules, or tabletop. The writing on that wall was written with the Primaris reveal and the story continues to be written with Shadowspear.

Has the difference in size been confirmed? I thought I remembered reading that recent chaos releases were bigger overall? I think the new chaos marines regardless of size are well done. People rag on the now previous kit but that was *very* well received in its day (and I even kept the white dwarf magazines because I thought the new art and models were so cool) similar to the also currently derided Cadian line. Time passes, scale creeps, and details change and increase and people think they didn't age well.

 warboss wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris. Oldmarines/Adeptus Secundus though have no future either in the fluff, rules, or tabletop. The writing on that wall was written with the Primaris reveal and the story continues to be written with Shadowspear.

Has the difference in size been confirmed? I thought I remembered reading that recent chaos releases were bigger overall? I think the new chaos marines regardless of size are well done. People rag on the now previous kit but that was *very* well received in its day (and I even kept the white dwarf magazines because I thought the new art and models were so cool) similar to the also currently derided Cadian line. Time passes, scale creeps, and details change and increase and people think they didn't age well.

They are about the same size as the Chosen we got in the other box.

Alphalpha Legion are up!! New pics and details!!!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/24/24th-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-alpha-legiongw-homepage-post-1/

That's an underwhelming detachment, and bizarrely associated with Alpha Legion (doesn't look as if it's limited to them, of course).

 warboss wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.

I am a chaos player and I am very happy, please stop assuming a few of the loud section represent the entire audience.

Personally I am all aboard the CSM hype train, rules be damned.

And Ceorron: you always seem to be a day or two behind on the Warhammer Community posts and reveals, do you work nights or something?

I nearly went heretic when I saw Abaddon so everything else just swayed me even more. Not entirely fussed about the overall power of the rules I like the models more than the Space marine range which I currently have (except my Primaris) so May end up selling them to buy some BL in the future. Just waiting till Xmas again to finish my Orks first then we’ll see.

As a quasi-CSM player (Renegades) I'm fine with everything.

I won't be buying any new models (will kit-bash a few new characters, and order a couple 3rd party miniguns) but I get some new rules, strategems, and as a Renegade player I actually get some stratagems, relics, and warlord traits. I already enjoyed playing my CSM (admittedly in a casual environment). So this is nothing but a bonus for me. I just won't be sending GW any dollarydoos for models because I don't use CSM models.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.

I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.

The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.

This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.

What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?

Im very happy with the new rules, talks within the chaos tactica are going towards CSM as being suprisingly decent, bolter rules + new minigun makes them pretty decent for small groups for objective taking over cultists as they also put out decent number of shots down range. There is also talk about pulling a 30k legion trick with the 20 man stack where you can just recycle the unit like old cultists. I think the main reason you dont see many normal marine squads is often people just prefer to take the cult marines over them then fill in with cultists, cultists losing their edge means people will see more value in them. This new codex though is very very combo heavy, individual units dont look that scary but with amount of combo psychic/commands/prayers/legion traits most units can get alot of work done, even the basic CSM.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.

I am a chaos player and I am very happy, please stop assuming a few of the loud section represent the entire audience.

Please take a look at the following link as you may find the information it contains quite informative.

http://bfy.tw/KZ2

I'm extremely disappointed that they didn't take the revamp of the CSM codex to redo the legion rules or to add them to other types of units. 5 point cultists with no VOTLW and no legion traits is also a sick joke from whoever at GW still thinks much better guard infantry should be 4 points each. I'm also bummed the Lord Discordant is not 4++. 115 per Obliterator is also just way too much even with the improvements.

However, other than that, I am very happily surprised with the release. The renegade rules and new detachments are overall much better than I expected. Still some duds, but not too many. I am also very happy with some of the improvements (Abbadon, Havocs, Terminators). What I think is best about the changes is the incredible flexibility you get between the legions, specialist detachments, field commander warlord traits, council of traitors warlord traits, psychic powers, and marks of Chaos. There is a dizzying array of combos with taking a detachment, picking the legion, making it a specialist detachment, taking an extra specialist warlord trait, and then picking the marks for the units in the detachment. Really really cool.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I nearly went heretic when I saw Abaddon so everything else just swayed me even more. Not entirely fussed about the overall power of the rules I like the models more than the Space marine range which I currently have (except my Primaris) so May end up selling them to buy some BL in the future. Just waiting till Xmas again to finish my Orks first then we’ll see.

Same here. I don't realistically see myself starting any 40k army but the Abaddon model made me at least reconsider restarting my old Black Legion army from 3rd edition the last time there were this many new chaos undivided releases (when that was still a category of thing).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.

I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.

I have to agree. The fact that Primaris exist saps does curb my enthusiasm for this new Chaos release. Honestly, I just prefer them because there larger models and better proportioned. I'll buy at least a box of CSM and Havocs. Then just bits order the parts I need to continue converting more chaos-ified Primaris. I've never bought any of the daemon-engines, and even though the new ones are much better don't really fit my idea of what the Emperor's Children would field. The new Obliterators and Greater Possessed are simply ugly, like the Helbrute.

Also would have killed them to dedicate two pages to giving the Emperor's Children and World Eaters some love in Vigilus Ablaze?

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Personally I am all aboard the CSM hype train, rules be damned.

And Ceorron: you always seem to be a day or two behind on the Warhammer Community posts and reveals, do you work nights or something?

Yeah I am really busy with work. Not nights but just very busy.

I'm quite happy with where GW is going with CSM imo. They're doing everything they can to distinguish them with loyalist space marine : loyalist have the primaris range, while the CSM are going more and more towards deamonkin and diverse weapons that have no equivalent in the space marine range. It's not a problem that CSM have weaker stats than primars, as long as they have other tools to compensate.

 blood reaper wrote:
I'm happy to see more options available. That's nice, especially since they aren't all 'false' or 'trap' options (unlike a majority of the Legion traits which only seem useful in a CAAC environment, where self sabotage is apparently the aim of the game).

I'm not happy to see the fact that the bog standard troops of the army cost £35 despite having little in the way of customisation or options (I can buy like 30 models from Warlord Games for the same price).

But the standard Warlord Games model is half the size of a Warlord model. Plus Warlord is incentivized to charge less because a) there is a lot of competition in the WWII miniature marketplace and b) they are a smaller company and one of the ways you attract newcomers is to charge less than your competitors.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.

I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.

The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.

This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.

What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?

From a model standpoint, I'm thrilled. The Chaos Marines are the upgrade that I've been waiting a long time for, and they nailed the style. I can't wait to get those in my hands and start building them and divvying out special weapons. The havocs and terminators were a much-needed upgrade, Abaddon is gorgeous (even though I won't be getting him) the Noctilith Crown is pretty cool as a centerpiece model, and the new characters and daemon engines are totally ace.

Looking at Chaos Armies, if you ONLY use models that have been released in the past couple of editions, you can make an army that looks really thematic and amazing. I'm planning my army around *not* using Rhinos (and vehicles based on it) to really push for that daemon engine feel.

Yes, Bikes, Cultists, Lords, and Sorcerers still need an update to be brought more in line, but older kits like Possessed and Defilers still hold up well in the new style, I think.

Rules wise, I'm... conflicted. I'm happy that we got a lot of specialist detachments, new traits, new warlord traits, new relics, new stratagems, and the Dark Apostle upgrade is pretty nice too. I think there is a lot of potential here that will take some time to figure out. I don't think Chaos is going to be rising to the top of any metas, and I think much of what works currently for chaos (cultist spam, oblit spam, etc) will continue to work. I don't think that anything except maybe 2 of the new characters (Dark Apostle and Master of Possessions) adds much that competitive players will want to play with, so lists will be much the same, though a little deadlier depending on what specialist detachment they run with. Oh, and you might see minimum detachments of Red Corsairs mucking about too, for the CP.

I do wish that more work was put into making the daemon engines and regular chaos marines a little scarier (even if it meant becoming more expensive) and I do wish they'd gone back and revamped some of the old legion traits. Word Bearers and Night Lords especially need some love.

That said, I'm not a competitive player. I build and paint more than I play and I'll have plenty of fun playing casual games when I get around to them. I'll build my thematic army and it'll look way cooler than any of the competitive spam armies when I put it on the table. To that end, I'm thrilled with this release. I'm just waiting on the Venomcrawler and Obliterators to get a release outside of Shadowspear, which may be a few months away judging by how long it took them to make separate kits for the Plague Marines and Bloat Drone from Dark Imperium.

I'm also convinced that eventually, whether it's this year or next, we will see Emperor's Children and World Eaters get their own releases, and so I will theme my Chaos Marines around that, planning on them to be a great ally to the Emperor's Children when that comes out. I'm planning on doing CSM/EC/Chaos Daemons of Slaanesh all in one beautiful force, and I can't wait to make it all happen. With much of my hobby, it's just been a waiting game for GW to release the thing that I want.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall?

Plastic Havocs.

That is all.

Mandragola wrote:
So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

I am very tempted


But, luckily for my wallet, I am swamped in building and painting my GSC army so I am not going to start any big armies right now.

I could order box of Marines and Havocs at some point however.

Mandragola wrote:So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?

I am very happy with the release. I have been patiently waiting for updated an Abbadon, CSM and Havocs for years. I am pleased with appearance of the new Abbadon, CSM and Havocs and even like some of the other portions the expand the range. From what I have seen, I would have preferred Terminators to have a little more going on in the models, but I still plan on getting 5 more for a total of 15 terminators plus Sorcerer in Termie armor in which I probably will make use of the Bringers of Despair rules sometimes.

Speaking of rules, I don't play full 40k all that often (but plan on trying to change that after I get everything painted up), so the rules don't bother me too much either way.

Brutus_Apex wrote:It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.

I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.

If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.

I completely understand what you mean. I think Primaris have really fouled up several pillars of Warhammer 40k. There background fluff is ham fisted and awful. The rules squeeze in another class of infantry stats, or rather their existence squeezes in non-Primaris marine stats that don't really have a place in 8th edition that feels right points cost and what those points get you. Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines. Don't get me started on the preplexing weapon load outs Primaris have and introduced (I have a hard time making heads or tails of these squads battlefield purpose as someone that sees squads/fireteams through a WWII to 1990s composition lens).

But dag nabbit, if those models ain't beautiful. I mean just with the Shadowspear models I have, I want Primaris to be cheap enough for me to build a Raptors chapter army.

Virules wrote:I'm extremely disappointed that they didn't take the revamp of the CSM codex to redo the legion rules or to add them to other types of units. 5 point cultists with no VOTLW and no legion traits is also a sick joke from whoever at GW still thinks much better guard infantry should be 4 points each. I'm also bummed the Lord Discordant is not 4++. 115 per Obliterator is also just way too much even with the improvements.

I am going to hold off judgement until the new book has been out a while. That said, it definitely feels like more of a second printing with the current-ish information and not really worth the trouble on GW's part since it will be about 6 months before it starts to act like the current codex. If I was going to bother with a new codex for a faction that saw a pretty significant model release and I was like GW, I would have definitely erred on the side of making things a little OP (if I couldn't find the balence I liked) for units and definitely make changes to the legion traits that were universally panned. I do kinda think that cultists will be going back down to 4 points a model with the changes since that is what cultists cost in Kill Team and that feels about right for them. If they don't go down in cost, I would expect guardsmen to cost the same next Chapter Approved.

In any event, I didn't really feel the 8th edition CSM codex was a necessary purchase since I don't really reference it much. I kinda only bought it along with the BRB as talismans for any player that is concerned of double checking rules in official sources. I rarely encounter that, so I don't see a need to spend more money on rules yet.