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They won't slot into the new "less modular" CSM releases...but if you're running classical scale marines...Kromlech has you covered.



About $6-8 for three cannons.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...

 Irbis wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...

And why do those special rules need to be packaged with that specific gear? Why just not make the special rules those characters have Warlord Traits, or some other type Hero Traits you can slap on any character and then customise the gear too?

And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.

 Irbis wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...

Because named characters often have specific abilities/equipment unique to them. Yes you can just refluff it, but well you can do that with your other HQs as well. Shadowsun is always going to be in her modified suit, I don't want that, I want my commander in a regular suit, gives me more room to build them as their own character without the mechanical ramifications of special characters.

 Irbis wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...

YEAH but the CSM Codex 3.5 disagrees with you...

Not its/our fault that the rest of the game didn't go with the flow.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 warboss wrote:
People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).

Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”

I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.

Yep. always liked this much better than having every army led by some special characters

None of the special characters were broken. If anything, most of them were underpowered.
Rules being fine > Your need for no special characters

You are missing the point dude. Entirely missing the point. It's about the spirit of the game, not rules being too strong.

And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting.

Because some people want to create their own characters/stories/narratives and don't want to use pre-packaged characters, or even 'counts as'.

 Irbis wrote:
Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

No he fething didn't. He made it so the only way to play Salamanders/Imp Fists/Raven Guard/Crimson Fists/etc. was to bring a special character.

I'm glad that rot never spread to Chaos, forcing World Eater players to bring Kharn to every battle lest their World Eaters suddenly stop being World Eaters, and so on.

If you like special characters that's fine - there was a period in my life where I never took to the table without my Half-Brother leading the charge, Tiggy by his side - but eventually I wanted to tell my own stories with my own characters.

 Crimson wrote:
And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.

Hey now. Can't get they get Power Fists now? And at least 2 different types of Bolter?

How can one hold all these options!!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
there was a period in my life where I never took to the table without my Half-Brother leading the charge,

I finally understand what your username means!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting.

Because some people want to create their own characters/stories/narratives and don't want to use pre-packaged characters, or even 'counts as'.

 Irbis wrote:
Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

No he fething didn't. He made it so the only way to play Salamanders/Imp Fists/Raven Guard/Crimson Fists/etc. was to bring a special character.

I'm glad that rot never spread to Chaos, forcing World Eater players to bring Kharn to every battle lest their World Eaters suddenly stop being World Eaters, and so on.

If you like special characters that's fine - there was a period in my life where I never took to the table without my Half-Brother leading the charge, Tiggy by his side - but eventually I wanted to tell my own stories with my own characters.

 Crimson wrote:
And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.

Hey now. Can't get they get Power Fists now? And at least 2 different types of Bolter?

How can one hold all these options!!!

If the model was actually creative in any form, chances are counts-as would happen even with wargear. I don't buy your argument.

Of course counts-as can happen, but why have pointless limitations?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the model was actually creative in any form, chances are counts-as would happen even with wargear. I don't buy your argument.

You quote an entire post with separate points being made, so I honestly don't know what point you're attempting to make. Can you please clarify?

So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.

We actually have exactly that already. They're called Warlord Traits and Relics. You can make your own character, give them the special rule (Warlord Trait) that you desire, give them a Relic to boost their abilities, and name them whatever you want.

I really don't get where these complaints are suddenly coming from. Either way, this is a thread about the New Chaos Marines, so maybe we should get back on topic.

drbored wrote:
So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.

The opposite of that seem to be the complaint.

"Why not special characters 100% of the time!"

drbored wrote:
So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.

We actually have exactly that already. They're called Warlord Traits and Relics. You can make your own character, give them the special rule (Warlord Trait) that you desire, give them a Relic to boost their abilities, and name them whatever you want.

I really don't get where these complaints are suddenly coming from. Either way, this is a thread about the New Chaos Marines, so maybe we should get back on topic.

You missed the point. Please go back and relook at the WHOLE thread. ( of course you are correct, but look at where the conversation diverted to three different tangents... It wouldn't be a DAKKA thread without it.)

If generic characters had more options available, especially Primaris, and we could somehow get something like the character creation thing from CA18 allowed for match play, I think people would be happier. [Note- I haven’t looked into the custom character thing from CA18 for more than ten seconds a page, approximately.]

I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.

Honestly, I don't need a metric gak ton of "Special characters", seeing the ones I have seen so far, I am almost ready to throw the towel in on some of these so called "Special characters"...

I don't see a problem, either with someone who wants to put together their own special character, within reason. Some of these "New" guys in the New or additional codex they are coming out with are a little over the top. I honestly saw two or three and wasn't really impressed with what GW did with them....

back in the day, the Player was the one who dictated their game, not needing anyone to come behind them for them to ask "Mother may I"...

 Grot 6 wrote:
I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.

I can speak to him: unless my tired memory is playing tricks on me, he's exactly the same cost (as of his release) as a Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and a SM thunder hammer. And his rules effectively are the same as the generic one with the slightly unusual wargear choice, except that he also provides his lord buff to the BSF keyword models and requires they deploy near him. He's the most generic special character I've noticed in a while. If they add the BSF units with the new cultist "not a space marine" rule, he'd be essentially identical to a generic character with specific gear.

Actually, there is something I've seen in a rumor,

" Heretic militarum "

Can someone verify this?
Edit: meant this.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2019/3/25/f3cc82df594853615d72a6ead98c3998_115870.png

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Because if I do that, I'm locked to that exact pairing of rules and gear, which might or might not fit with the idea I have for my character.

Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.

Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.

Hear hear, i miss the insane customizability of Ork Hq choices.

 Albertorius wrote:
Because if I do that, I'm locked to that exact pairing of rules and gear, which might or might not fit with the idea I have for my character.

Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.

You quoted the wrong person there.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.

Hear hear, i miss the insane customizability of Ork Hq choices.

Sadly epitomised the most within the Ork Codex itself, a book that should, by rights, be the most free and open to kitbashing, wacky weapon combos and other madness. But no, 6 optionless buggies. Fantastic.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually, there is something I've seen in a rumor,

" Heretic militarum "

Can someone verify this?
Edit: meant this.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2019/3/25/f3cc82df594853615d72a6ead98c3998_115870.png

I fear they will do the same with my r&h, then again it's nice to see that we still exist in gw S mind and are worth mentioning.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You quoted the wrong person there.

Whoops . Fixed now.

Sadly epitomised the most within the Ork Codex itself, a book that should, by rights, be the most free and open to kitbashing, wacky weapon combos and other madness.

But no, 6 optionless buggies. Fantastic.

I belive that was literally the worst about the codex.
No more Biker warbosses but here take these 6 buggies that are all completly optionless.


I miss the days of the release of the dakka Jet, still having 2 of them and a burna bomba at home ready to be painted and not one looks identical with any other.
That was a Set well done.

Sotahullu wrote:

 bubber wrote:
from the Community website:

'This kit will allow you to build 5 Havocs, armed with an array of heavy weaponry. Inside, you’ll find 2 missile launchers, 2 heavy bolters, 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons and 1 reaper chaincannon, giving you loads of choice when kitting out your squads. What’s more, all of these heavy weapons are designed to be compatible with the Chaos Space Marines kit, meaning you’ll be able to use your spares to up-gun your chosen squads! A choice of heads, accessories, shoulder pads and more allow you to customise your Havocs even further.'

Having just one chaincannon is just plain torture

Luckily it is just simple conversion if using autocannon or heavy bolter as base. And you get other weapons in pairs.

The one bonus I'm getting from this is Chosen still exist.

They didn't get Trueborn'd.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

Yes, exactly, and my own chapter/craftworld/hive fleet/subfaction too!

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Rename Sicarus entry to “Experienced captain” then. Rename Kantor to “Elite first company captain”. Or give them faux latin names. I don't care. Just don't make “Play with other people's character” the official fun way to play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?

No, special characters being made an integral part of the game, on the same level as generic stuff (along with a lot of stuff, especially true now on 8th with the subfaction specific rules) reframe the game from the original, RPG-inspired “Build your own army with it's lore and character etc” into “Play with armies and characters designed by us”, Warmachine style.

I did my own chapter and characters for awhile. When I got back into Marines with the release of Primaris and basically started over, I switched to Salamanders. Mostly got my own characters with that, but I have converted up the Apothecary from Forgeworld, and would like to do the Dreadnaught and Vulkan eventually.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the model was actually creative in any form, chances are counts-as would happen even with wargear. I don't buy your argument.

You quote an entire post with separate points being made, so I honestly don't know what point you're attempting to make. Can you please clarify?

That was directed at the "tell stories with my characters" paragraph. They talked about Counts As being bad, and my argument is if your model wasn't super generic you'd likely have to do Counts As anyway.

When you use Counts As with a Special Character, it is really no different than just using an HQ that didn't have a lot of options. Chaplains certainly never had a ton of options, did they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.

Yes, exactly, and my own chapter/craftworld/hive fleet/subfaction too!

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.

Rename Sicarus entry to “Experienced captain” then. Rename Kantor to “Elite first company captain”. Or give them faux latin names. I don't care. Just don't make “Play with other people's character” the official fun way to play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?

No, special characters being made an integral part of the game, on the same level as generic stuff (along with a lot of stuff, especially true now on 8th with the subfaction specific rules) reframe the game from the original, RPG-inspired “Build your own army with it's lore and character etc” into “Play with armies and characters designed by us”, Warmachine style.

Nothing stops you from using the generic Captain. Librarians and Chaplains and Techmarines (formerly the Master of the Forge) have super limited options in the first place. They would never have fit your "build your army" standard.

Making customizable, modular models is really tricky. Maybe it's because I built several Space Marine armies (Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes) using bits ferreted from bitz re-sellers, but I really like how that worked. Alternately, given how it creates space for 3rd parties like Kromlech (who do create miniatures, by the way) to profit from GW's IP and marketing, I can see how it's not something GW might want to pursue. Plus looking at the plastic sprues I'm kind of astonished by how GW is looking to combine those goals.

I'll also confess to loving the "[Insert Name Here] Generic Space Marine Captain" approach to characters, but I can see how it's cool to have characters from the stories available for use. Part of the appeal of Warhammer is that it can be a lot of stuff to a lot of people.

Looking at the CSM sprues I was rather hopeful for customisation due to seperate torsos and legs, but on closer inspection, the back of the torso seems to have detail which slots into a set piece of legs, making mix and match very fiddly.

Will hold off from buying them when there is more known about the customisation. But it doesn't bode well.