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Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.

Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.

As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.

Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.

SamusDrake wrote:I am truely happy for all the Chaos fans out there...after all, the Havocs look rather badass...and the Marines look very "flexible" as to which evil deity they worship...

...BUT HOW LONG IS THIS FRIGGINNG CHAOS PRE-ORDER CRAP GOING ON FOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR????

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Its just that its now been FIVE! weeks of Chaos and nothing but Chaos...and its getting to the point where I feel I have to purchase something Chaos to appease the plastic overlords whom reside in Nottingham, just to resume pre-orders that are NOT Chaos-related!

Once again, I am sorry for my out burst - I'm an emotional chap - but I do forsee the next issue of White Dwarf being a glorified argos catalogue dedicated to the forces of the foul fiends from the warp...

That's what happens when GW gets Chaos constipation for decades. It builds and builds until the dam breaks releasing everything at once. Now they just need an Eldar movement to clear out their system for a bit. GW should be more regular after that. If not, they should get more fiber in their diet. Everyone knows while space marines are good, they just don't have the fiber content to stay regular. You need a varied diet of all faction to keep the system running regular.

 Binabik15 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As a heads up for anyone buying Abaddon and wanting to build him and paint components:

I highly suggest building the cape onto the shoulderpads, as per the instruction, and also attaching it to the trophy rack on Abaddon's back. It's a very snug fit otherwise and can potentially break something after you've been painting!

How does Abby compare to regular Terminators? Would you say he's the right size for a "true scale" Terminator if you use Primaris as "true scale" Marines?

He's notably larger than regular Terminators, if I had to eyeball him. I tried mounting him on a 40mm for painting purposes but ended up using a large oval base instead.

If you're really motivated? I guess it could work...but really there's a lot of stuff you'd have to do for it.
In case it helps, GW actually did a scale shot of him with a Primaris:


Oh! And there's also a small double sided poster in the (fairly nice) display box as well.
One side is this:

The other side is this art, minus Abaddon's model covering it up:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Now they just need an Eldar movement to clear out their system for a bit.

Hold my beer while I fetch the Bran Flakes...

SamusDrake wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Now they just need an Eldar movement to clear out their system for a bit.

Hold my beer while I fetch the Bran Flakes...

just finished a box.
I have to buy them occasionally to remind why that's a bad idea


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.

Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.

As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.

Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.

forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits

Folks that think this chaos release is long are in for more further down the line

Rumour engine sorcerer backpack piece was never shown in this wave of releases suggesting there might yet be another wave of releases which would make sense as they could get the sorcerer, multipart venom crawler, multi part obliterators/ mutilators, chosen etc

While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.

 Roknar wrote:

forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits

Literally the only thing you can't use with the new kits is the old torsos. That's the only thing. The new kit in no way limits your options, when your options for everything else are still there and this new kit is reverse-compatible with that.

The Shadowspear stuff is all monopose, not the new CSM kit.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits

Literally the only thing you can't use with the new kits is the old torsos. That's the only thing. The new kit in no way limits your options, when your options for everything else are still there and this new kit is reverse-compatible with that.

The Shadowspear stuff is all monopose, not the new CSM kit.

How is not being able to swap the torso adding MORE variety? We definitely don't have more options in the sprue for it. At least in terms of space, individual sprues are a different story (looking at you terminators)
I did say the new csm kit is fine in that sense. It has both monopose and modular parts, best of both worlds.
Removing the option for torsos is quite a sizable chunk of customization you loose, unless you're strict with your armour patterns, nevermind posability/conversions.

I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!

Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.

If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!

Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.

If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.

Or maybe they're not buying GW kits because of bad business practices?
A bad sprue is still a bad sprue. And it's not like GW doesn't have excellent kits while also selling stinkers.
Just brushing over everything calling people complainers won't help anybody.

EVERYBODY benefits from a good sprue, how much you make yourself has nothing to do with the quality of the sprues.
A car will still somewhat drive with three tires, but nobody does that because people would riot.

 Roknar wrote:

How is not being able to swap the torso adding MORE variety? We definitely don't have more options in the sprue for it. At least in terms of space, individual sprues are a different story (looking at you terminators)
I did say the new csm kit is fine in that sense. It has both monopose and modular parts, best of both worlds.
Removing the option for torsos is quite a sizable chunk of customization you loose, unless you're strict with your armour patterns, nevermind posability/conversions.

Are the old kits no longer available?

This kit adds more variety, because if you don't like these torsos and leg combos- you still have everything else to add to the old torsos.

People really do be out here wilding up GW's arse.

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

Very drole. Only really works when GW is producing spare bits across ranges to customise them with.

 Gael Knight wrote:
People really do be out here wilding up GW's arse.

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

Very drole. Only really works when GW is producing spare bits across ranges to customise them with.

At the end of the day it's about enjoying your hobby yeah? I've got a bits box full of things that will make for great conversions on my terminators. It has nothing to do with brown nosing GW and everything to do with perspective. From my perspective, y'all need to find something else to complain about. Could GW have done more? Absolutely. I'll be telling them so in the community survey since that seems to be the only time they really listen. But, the kit is the kit. Buy it or dont. Vote with your dollars. I'm ok with it so I'll get it and enjoy it.

Complaining about torsos and legs being combined into one part is just dumb. The poses are more dynamic and detailed because of it. I dont miss the separate twerking legs and the boring robotic poses that that "customization" allowed. That's the only difference, but somehow that makes them "etb-ish" or "monopose". They look better, hands down.

After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).

I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.

I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.

drbored wrote:

Complaining about torsos and legs being combined into one part is just dumb. The poses are more dynamic and detailed because of it. I dont miss the separate twerking legs and the boring robotic poses that that "customization" allowed. That's the only difference, but somehow that makes them "etb-ish" or "monopose". They look better, hands down.

Absolutely agreed.

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

Wow. Way to call everyone who has a problem with GW's current style of kit design stupid and uncreative.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.

At the very least, we'll see a new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines at some point.

Back in January or February, we got a price sheet leaked that had a few SCs that we don't have yet as part of the "price raise" bit.
We still haven't seen the Death Guard one, nor have we seen the Genestealer Cultist SC that was in their book.


I'm, personally, speculating that the Shadowspear halves will be released as SC boxes later this year. They're fairly tame in terms of content.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.

At the very least, we'll see a new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines at some point.

Back in January or February, we got a price sheet leaked that had a few SCs that we don't have yet as part of the "price raise" bit.
We still haven't seen the Death Guard one, nor have we seen the Genestealer Cultist SC that was in their book.


I'm, personally, speculating that the Shadowspear halves will be released as SC boxes later this year. They're fairly tame in terms of content.

I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.

The Thunderstrike Brotherhood and Goreblade Warband boxes for AoS were the previous starter set's components, split off into two SCs.

The only reason I keep harping on this is it seems like, conceptually, it's a good avenue to take for something that is actually "new" versus discounting full kits right off the bat.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.

The Thunderstrike Brotherhood and Goreblade Warband boxes for AoS were the previous starter set's components, split off into two SCs.

The only reason I keep harping on this is it seems like, conceptually, it's a good avenue to take for something that is actually "new" versus discounting full kits right off the bat.

Interesting. I forgot about those. You would think they would do something similar with the Genestealer Cults from the old Deathwatch v. GSC game from years ago too. I don't think the Shadowspear contents would constitute a $85-$95 box though. Then again, the main box was overpriced, so maybe?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

Wow. Way to call everyone who has a problem with GW's current style of kit design stupid and uncreative.

Yeah, the people who disagree with him are just wrong and stupid, those that agree will be correct and brilliant.

That's not poisoning the well, that's snickering behind a punchbowl and waiting to see if someone will get a cup full after you put a sheet over your head and pooped in it while everyone was watching.

drbored wrote:
If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.

"If you don't like the President, or the war, or the law- why don't you just leave the country? Let me guess, you're probably a criminal!"

Let's put it this way, dude- you sound more like you're defending a lover than you are a toy company. Whether you love those little plastic men that much, or you're feeling like you've been attacked for what you spent your money on- the statements you've made are not okay or clever. At all. I mean, they're not even funny, and I'd give you credit for that even if you were wrong.

People can have complaints about a few things here and there and not hate the company. Just because we like 40k, we like this game and hobby- it doesn't mean we have to be thrilled with everything GW does. I have complaints about some things my significant other does sometimes, that doesn't mean I should just dump her and hurl her stuff out onto the lawn- that means I voice my complaints, I sometimes get feedback from other people, and I see what changes as time passes.

If you wanna know what's really bad for a company? Guys that shout down that company's critics. Honest and open criticism actually helps a company to develop their products and services and tailor them to the customers. When you try to shout that down, you're not helping. You're not 'supporting' them. You're not doing anyone any favors, you're just raging into the wind. And then the casual passerby sees someone doing exactly as you are, and they think this game attracts rabid sycophants- and then they go do something else.

So, good job being even worse than the people you're complaining about, dude.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).

I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.

I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.

I pretty much agree with everything your saying. But I'd go further and say some of the newer models are split up into far too many tiny pieces <Fiends>. While it does help minimize the mold lines it exacerbates the number of hair-line gaps you have to fill. I don't now what it is but here has to be a median between mono-pose and assembling a jigsaw puzzle with plastic glue.

drbored wrote:
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.

I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!

Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.

If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.

Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?

 Sersi wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).

I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.

I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.

I pretty much agree with everything your saying. But I'd go further and say some of the newer models are split up into far too many tiny pieces <Fiends>. While it does help minimize the mold lines it exacerbates the number of hair-line gaps you have to fill. I don't now what it is but here has to be a median between mono-pose and assembling a jigsaw puzzle with plastic glue.

I have only two complaints about the new CSM

1)I just wish the torso fronts could be mix and matched
2) You need the instructions on hand to match arms to weapons, witch can slow down the building process. you will also need a box of plastic MKIII or IV marines on hand if you wish to use the Forge World Upgrade weapon sets for the arms.

2) is unusual; most of their recent kits have had an A, B, C, etc. cast into the glue face of both arms so that you can pair them up.

 Togusa wrote:


Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?

The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).

It also still lists the old fixed unit size of 3 with the old point costs, instead of the new 1-3 which is in the new datasheet, so it's definitely wrong.

Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?

There is not.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?

There is not.