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Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
When is the survey btw?

From Warhammer Community:

The date for this year’s Big Community Survey – your chance to let us know how we’re doing and influence the kind of content, rules and models we give you – has been revealed! You’ll be able to make your voice heard from the 15th of April – and this time around, we’re asking for your feedback on 3 key areas.

Thanks mate.

Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

My problem isn't with point cost. My problem is that for things that according to fluff and common sense should have similar profile, we now usually have the newer option getting rules that massively outperform the classic version.
The Kellermorph's stub pistols should be appropriately the same as boltgun, they are incredibly better. The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
Remember that even one point of stat is a huge difference in fluff in 40k. 1 point of strength is the difference between a conscript and a space marine! One more shot is the difference in rate of fire between a sniper rifle, and a full-auto machine-gun at short range!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.

...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?

I'm not sure what you're getting at- you're bothered that a gun that costs as much as 2 other guns puts out more shots, but at a shorter range?

 Binabik15 wrote:
HBs are getting the short end of the stick since forever, sadly. Were they not D3 damage in 2ed/Necromunda?

In Rogue Trader they were Str 5 -2 D4 dam

Hey I love miniguns like anyone else but, if they cost as much points as two heavy B's, the extra stand off range of heavy Bs, especially on the move can be good, my opinion of course.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

The relative cost or value of the heavy bolter is fairly irrelevant because no one has used them in all of the record history of csm units. Only guy that used a heavy bolter is probably someone that bought a boxset and didn't have enough money to get a different weapon

RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.

RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)

And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes

-

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Hey I love miniguns like anyone else but, if they cost as much points as two heavy B's, the extra stand off range of heavy Bs, especially on the move can be good, my opinion of course.

They're a situational gun, I think. Good for Infiltrating Havocs. I still crutch on the Heavy Bolter, and have always believed in having some guys with them- just doesn't feel like Space Marines if I don't have a few Heavy Bubbas on a few guys.

Isn't Chain cannon like heresy rotor cannon(which is complete crap kinda with S3)?

 smurfORnot wrote:
Isn't Chain cannon like heresy rotor cannon(which is complete crap kinda with S3)?

Heavy 24, S5 ap-1 d1 (8shots)

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?

Looking at Havocs, by the time you get 2 Chaincannons you already have a Heavy Bolter squad ready to go. The extra 40 points is almost a whole other Cultist squad. Chaincannons might be offensively better but it's at an appropriate cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Nobody. Like I said, what invalidates the Heavy Bolter in infantry squads like Havocs is the Autocannon. Why there are complaints about Chaincannons doing it makes absolutely no sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

My problem isn't with point cost. My problem is that for things that according to fluff and common sense should have similar profile, we now usually have the newer option getting rules that massively outperform the classic version.
The Kellermorph's stub pistols should be appropriately the same as boltgun, they are incredibly better. The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
Remember that even one point of stat is a huge difference in fluff in 40k. 1 point of strength is the difference between a conscript and a space marine! One more shot is the difference in rate of fire between a sniper rifle, and a full-auto machine-gun at short range!

Yeah, it does. Two heavy bolters have two less shots and they have an extra foot of range.

If we added an extra shot to each heavy bolter, they would suddenly be a better weapon than a Chaincannon, right? Almost as though it's a balanced choice. Big think.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.

 Kirasu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

The relative cost or value of the heavy bolter is fairly irrelevant because no one has used them in all of the record history of csm units. Only guy that used a heavy bolter is probably someone that bought a boxset and didn't have enough money to get a different weapon

Yeah, because the Autocannon invalidated its existence, not the Chaincannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.

You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?

You have to balance survivability and output. The HB sqd is 110pts (just saying bolter on sg) and will kick out 12 shots a turn. The equivalent chaincannon sqd is 150pts but churns out 32 shots per turn. For less than 40% more points you are getting an almost 200% increase in output. How many turns will you get to shoot before being wiped out? 1, 2 maybe? What can a HB sqd realistically kill in those turns, compared to the chaincannon? If they were good, we'd be seeing a lot of HB havoc sqds already, but they're not terribly efficient at killing anything. Now when you make it a Slaanesh havoc sqd, doubling those shots for one turn really improves the output of the chaincannon over the HB.
I'm not saying the chaincannon havoc sqd is fantastic (it will be dead after 1 turn I'd expect), but it will clear out infantry very effectively.

On a mobile platform with T5, and the shear number of shots being put out with an effective range of 30", yeah, people will be taking squads with four of them. Perhaps not three squads, but expect to see at least one squad.

Slayer-Fan123, my problem is I keep forgetting the Autocannon *exists* (loyalist player), so that is part of the reason I see the chaincannons invalidating the Heavy Bolter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Nobody. Like I said, what invalidates the Heavy Bolter in infantry squads like Havocs is the Autocannon. Why there are complaints about Chaincannons doing it makes absolutely no sense.

Presumably the idea is that if autocannons are so clearly superior to heavy bolters, the way to fix the situation is by improving heavy bolters, not creating another reasons why heavy bolters are pointless.

It's bad game design, but good for GW's bottom line.

This is just a CSM tactics thread now right?

I do keep popping in to check but I don’t know what I’m expecting to see as I think that’s it for releases..

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.

You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?

I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:

1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.

I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.

Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.

Danny76 wrote:
This is just a CSM tactics thread now right?

I do keep popping in to check but I don’t know what I’m expecting to see as I think that’s it for releases..

We'll get the executioner and apostle, presumably announced on Sunday. Possibly with a short article sometime next week for one or both. But that should wrap up the Chaos Marine release.

The most interesting question right now is whether next week's pre-order's will be as boring as this week's with only those two characters, or if GW wants to release something alongside them like a battletome or some specialist games stuff.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?

Unless you're Aeldari....

Why is the Autocannon an invalidation?

I'm pretty not-jazzed about Havocs being now limited to 5 models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If we added an extra shot to each heavy bolter, they would suddenly be a better weapon than a Chaincannon, right?

No. Heavy bolters would be slightly more than half as good as a chaincannon. Which is BAD, in my opinion.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?

I don't know what those are. And, to be honest, I don't really care. I'll say it again: one point of statistic difference in 40k correspond to a HUUUUGE fluff difference. All the various pattern of lasgun, and oh god there are many, don't result in any stat difference.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If we added an extra shot to each heavy bolter, they would suddenly be a better weapon than a Chaincannon, right?

No. Heavy bolters would be slightly more than half as good as a chaincannon. Which is BAD, in my opinion.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?

I don't know what those are. And, to be honest, I don't really care. I'll say it again: one point of statistic difference in 40k correspond to a HUUUUGE fluff difference. All the various pattern of lasgun, and oh god there are many, don't result in any stat difference.

Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range

That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.

Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?

Unless you're Aeldari....

Why is the Autocannon an invalidation?

In previous editions, the Autocannon, when available, always had its pros over the Heavy Bolter. For one less shot, you have considerably more strength and an extra foot of range. With the price being the same, you gained a lot more flexibility for throwing out shots that would wound more often, ID T3 models (which did come into play more often than one would expect), and you could still glance a good amount of vehicles. The extra shot of the Heavy Bolter couldn't ever compare.

Now, with the new wounding system, the S7 is a little less important. HOWEVER, the Autocannon gained D2, which is an immediate edge the moment you run into tougher models and FNP equivalents. So basically with the three weapons for this edition. 20 points is either:
24" S5 AP-1 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 AP-1 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 AP-1 Heavy 4 D2
The former and latter clearly have niches to fill because the Heavy Bolter is too middling. However, it is the Autocannon bringing the irrelevance because it is the same price as the Heavy Bolter and always has been.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.

Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.

Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.

I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything. That's mostly because of the D6 system. If -1 to hit was done when shooting on a D8 or D10, the bonus is still effective but not brokenly so. Does that make sense?

Im hoping down the line they will release a multi part plastic for the oblits. Points be damned i love the models!

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.

You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?

I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:

1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.

I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.

Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.

Ever heard of a rhino?