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Well, I have multiple problems with this, really.

Comic book movies are now pretty thoroughly enshrined in pop culture. Origin movies at this point really only exist to bootstrap you into a bigger venue. When the DCCU started being a thing, and they did Batman vs Superman, they covered Batman's backstory in about 2 minutes in flashback. They didn't bother explaining it at all in Spider-Man: Homecoming. We all know. This Joker movie doesn't in any way bootstrap any larger story, we all know who the Joker is and he's established, super well established. They knew this in Suicide Squad, so explained nothing there - correctly, I think. So it's not useful as a means to that end.

So far as his actual origin, he's always had conflicting origins and I think part of the appeal is that is origin story is in no way important to the character. I think it's probably the least important or interesting thing about the character.

I tended to read both Marvel and DC comics as a kid. My favorites were probably the X-Men, but I always thought DC had better, more iconic characters. I still think that, and they continue to squander them regularly. There are so many interesting stories that they could tell with their characters that it just seems such a lazy, pointless waste to do this one.

Looks kind of interesting. Might work, might not. Kind of depends on where they leave the story and how much they really go for it at the end. There's definitely something lacking when you have the Joker with no Batman to antagonize.

While there's no reason or place in this film to adapt the arc, I keep hoping to see someone adapt the punchline of the War of Jokes and Riddles in a more straightforward way. That moment is one of my favorite takes on the origin of the modern incarnation of the Joker.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


DCCU? Not so much a canon, as a blunderbuss. This Joker film is nowt to do with the rest of their oeuvre.

To be fair this has worked well for them in the animated films department. The animated film canon is more than happy to buck the idea of sticking to one chronology and just keep chucking out film adaptations of popular comic runs.

Both styles work for me. MCU has a nice pigeonholed coherent universe and singular story plot, which mostly exists in the post credit scenes actually. The individual plots are industrially formulaic. Frankly most non Xmen MCU films bore me to tears and I have little interest in seeing them. Deadpool and Venom were the exceptions and I really liked them. I have only a passing interest in seeing Avengers (didn't see the earlier one).

DCU being the older film version started as indivusal films. While I am fine with an overarching universe and the ability to drop in characters into differing films, I like the individual takes. Batman should be dark and either gritty or fantastical. Superman should be bright and on another level. I enjoyed the freshness of both WW and Suicide Squad, and am very much looking forward to Shazam.

This may be a bit too dark. We'll see what the reviews say.

The Joker origin was a intergral part of what I consider by far the best Batman film by Tim Burton (Closly followed by Lego)

I am not sure I will go to the cinema to see it - I prefer more fun for a night out but would def be interested in seeing based on the trailer and as I have less than zero faith or interest in what critics or "professional" reviwers say thats enough.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Joker origin was a intergral part of what I consider by far the best Batman film by Tim Burton (Closly followed by Lego)

I am not sure I will go to the cinema to see it - I prefer more fun for a night out but would def be interested in seeing based on the trailer and as I have less than zero faith or interest in what critics or "professional" reviwers say thats enough.

Man I forgot about the awesomeness of Lego Batman. My second favorite batman behind Michael Keaton.

Looks interesting, but I am so incredibly tired of the Joker its not even funny.

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

Yeah, if ever there was movie that required a twist ending or mind feth, this would be the one that needed it.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

You're simply wrong. There ARE origin stories for the Joker. There may be more than one of them, and they may have contradictions, but DC has never called them all falsehoods. They've simply let the contradictions stand. This is a different thing than *not having* an origin.

This film is nothing different than The Killing Joke, or Detective Comics #168. It's another presentation of an origin story just like those works. It doesn't present a 'definitive' origin within the DC film universe either, since this one isn't intended to be part of even its newly loose continuity. By your logic here, The Killing Joke or DC#168 should never have been written. Well, it's too late for that...again, it's been decades.

 nels1031 wrote:
Yeah, if ever there was movie that required a twist ending or mind feth, this would be the one that needed it.

Actually, I think we may be in for an interesting twist or two.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

Nonsense - the whole joker story is covered in the Burton Batman film.

Sure some versions of the Joker have no or ambigious origins but not all.

"Wait until they get a load of me..."
epic line.

My big fear whenever someone wants to do a Joker origin story is that they'll try to make that origin explain the modern Joker. It's important to remember that the modern Joker has evolved and grown as a character over time and used to have very different motives than he does now. That's a big part of why I really like the end of the War of Jokes and Riddles. It's an "origin" of Joker's current dynamic of being obsessed with trying to crack the Bat but it appreciates that before that moment the Joker was still identifiably the Joker; just with different goals in life.

I'm actually okay with the Joker having an origin and honestly, in a lot of ways I'd prefer it to be relatively mundane. For all I care he can just be a crook with a gimmick. He doesn't even need to be particularly psychotic. A lot of his appeal is that he's an evolving, escalating villain. He's a child misbehaving for attention and its through repeated encounters with Batman that he grows into what he becomes. He's a character with a real growth arc; just one that sees him grow into an inhuman monster.

 Frazzled wrote:
"Wait until they get a load of me..."
epic line.

So many great lines in that film

 gorgon wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

You're simply wrong. There ARE origin stories for the Joker. There may be more than one of them, and they may have contradictions, but DC has never called them all falsehoods. They've simply let the contradictions stand. This is a different thing than *not having* an origin.

No, I am not. Letting the contradictions stand is a way of retconning past Origin stories. Oh, there was this Origin Story? Now we have the new one? WHICH ONE IS REAL?!

That is the Joker. Not a soul knows. They will never know.

Burton had an Origin story and like the movie, it was terrible.

Yes great lines. Without Tim Burton's Batman I think the modern era of superheroes would have never existed.

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes great lines. Without Tim Burton's Batman I think the modern era of superheroes would have never existed.

Agreed - (pity the following films declined in quality...)

Joaquin Phoenix is a solid actor and I'm looking forward to this.

Getting The Dark Knight Returns vibes from the TV show but obviously it won't play out in that way.

Would prefer that cold psychopath from The Dark Knight Returns. I like the idea that the Joker isn't sympathetic at all, while many of the other Batman villains are in some way.

As for the Origin. The Killing Joke is definitely an origin. While The Joker states he has a "Multiple choice" past the flashbacks are entirely internal and seem to be triggered by events/things in the story. If his multiple choice past was true and that was a lie, why focus entirely on it in the story. I'm not a massive fan of The Killing Joke tbf.




I prefer this explanation. That he's just a horrible manipulator. "He's got a million of 'em Harley..."

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Finally, the origin story no one wanted.

The Joker has had an origin story in comics for decades. More than one story, in fact. Batman '89 was a Joker origin story also.

I've heard this gripe about this film before, but it doesn't make any sense to me unless your entire experience with the character is limited to the Nolan films.

The Joker has no origin story. That is his thing. Those stories about his Origins are always wrong or a hallucination or a different joker. There are reportedly 3 different Jokers in the DC Comics Universe, or there could be. Nobody knows! That is what is great about the Joker!

Literally nobody knows his Origin, even the writers. Every Origin story of his has been redacted, retconned, or it was an outright lie. Nothing about having an origin story for a character with no origin makes sense.

You're simply wrong. There ARE origin stories for the Joker. There may be more than one of them, and they may have contradictions, but DC has never called them all falsehoods. They've simply let the contradictions stand. This is a different thing than *not having* an origin.

No, I am not. Letting the contradictions stand is a way of retconning past Origin stories. Oh, there was this Origin Story? Now we have the new one? WHICH ONE IS REAL?!

That is the Joker. Not a soul knows. They will never know.

Burton had an Origin story and like the movie, it was terrible.

If multiple origins equals no origin, then you should have zero issues with this film. Because it's just another origin story added to the pile with its own contradictions, right? Which equals no origin in your world.

Or something.

Maybe the twist will be that he's not the real Joker.

Final scene has him killed by Leto!

 LunarSol wrote:
Final scene has him killed by Leto!

I will accept this if they actually kill each other.....

Now, the perfect fanboy scene would have the two of them trying to kill each other before hearing a "nuh-uh-uh" and seeing Jack Nicholson step out of the shadows demanding they "play nice".

Or Batman just face palming.

 LunarSol wrote:
Now, the perfect fanboy scene would have the two of them trying to kill each other before hearing a "nuh-uh-uh" and seeing Jack Nicholson step out of the shadows demanding they "play nice".

The Mobious Chair DID say there were three Jokers...

Can't wait.

It’s shaping up to look like it could be a very fun ride. That said, it’s also The Joker. Is knowing this version of him going to ruin character expectations moving forward? Fingers crossed for a good movie!!

If you thought my constant bemoaning of Dr Quinzell was bad its nowt compared to how much toxic manbaby bile I hold for Mr J

as wobbly as The Killing Joke was at least it calls the Joker out as largely deluded run of the mill psychopath, a bit of rich coming from Bats but takes one to know

giving this one a hard pass

Why exactly is anyone disputing Ledger as being the best joker? The performance was literally phenomenal. He made the Joker a believable character which is what the idea behind the new batman series really was - to make these things seem more possible and relate to us more.

If I had to pick anyone to do the job better I think the only guy that could do it would be Daniel Day Lewis. To be the joker you must become the joker.