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Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic

Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.

We still need to wait for other character interactions with blips, but it's otherwise perfectly suitable. I'm still betting on 90 to 120 points.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic

Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.

Or there's something we've not seen yet.

 Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic

Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.

Or there's something we've not seen yet.

See the spoiler on the last page. WH Facebook confirmed it is a holdover rule to allow people to use him until the codex is out. The printing of rules and timing is all jumbled, because the GSC timeline got pushed around.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic

Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.

Or there's something we've not seen yet.

See the spoiler on the last page. WH Facebook confirmed it is a holdover rule to allow people to use him until the codex is out. The printing of rules and timing is all jumbled, because the GSC timeline got pushed around.

Huh... So not only doesn't it work, but it's also only valid for a week? Fair enough!

Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.

 Quickjager wrote:
Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.

Is there definite power creep with Ambush I'm guessing?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.

Is there definite power creep with Ambush I'm guessing?

Nah, it's more reliable but the best case is weaker. You aren't going to be able to move the Kellermorph closer than 9" to the enemy before shooting, and you're not going to be able to shoot twice. It got a LOT easier to screen out the Kellermorph.

Unless there are strats we haven't seen that change this, big disclaimer!

Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?

Karol wrote:
Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?

Yes, but that's after ambush (which I mean you can't ambush across the table and then use it), which is deployment zone only. Now those characters could move blips around, but so far after turn 1 there are no additional gambits with ambush.

Karol wrote:
Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?

Yeah, but 3CP to do something that was free before? And only d6", not a full move. That's super risky for so many CP.

Did you see that blips have to be placed in your deployment zone too?

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?

Yeah, but 3CP to do something that was free before? And only d6", not a full move. That's super risky for so many CP.

Did you see that blips have to be placed in your deployment zone too?

Yes best case scenario you go underground with KM, pop-up 9", and spend 3 CP to shoot twice if your opponent screwed up or move D6 to try and get range. Very risky indeed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.

Is there definite power creep with Ambush I'm guessing?

Its a wash, Cult ambush looks like it is actually ill-suited for a surgical strike, but it's much more useful overall now in denying the opponent a first strike on your army. The Kelemorph still does its job well, but it isn't bringing/buffing an accompanying squad anymore with a free move/fire. I'd say it is weaker overall offensively, but it is honestly great defensively.

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't admech have 5 shot pistols?

The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.

Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.

Really like the idea of blips - but this feels a bit limited.

I mean its basically a free redeploy either on your turn, or after your opponents movement phase, potentially manipulated further by stratagems/other abilities. Which is nice I guess - but then if you were deploying second as per the CA18 missions, you kind of already got that. Assuming 1 blip counts as a unit you are not skewing your ability to choose who gets the first turn.

I can see the issues of making a whole game within a game, but I was imagining Space Hulk style trickery, where blips might ominously move around the table until say at least turn 3 unless someone goes to investigate. Sounds like they didn't want to commit to that, hence the more conventional "you can just hide underground". They imply turn 1 deep strike, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I relly like the general concept – anything that further distinguishes armies in a meaningful way. Looking forward to reading the codex.

Tyel wrote:
I mean its basically a free redeploy either on your turn, or after your opponents movement phase, potentially manipulated further by stratagems/other abilities. Which is nice I guess - but then if you were deploying second as per the CA18 missions, you kind of already got that. Assuming 1 blip counts as a unit you are not skewing your ability to choose who gets the first turn.

With the CA18 missions, it means you either deploy first and then get to redeploy before taking the first turn, or you deploy second, and get to redeploy after your opponent's movement phase, which means you get to deploy knowing exactly what will get to shoot at/try to charge the units you're putting down.

As well, with the stratagem to have 'empty' blip counters, you can put down blips that you don't end up using. Like, for example, putting blips all across your deployment zone, and then actually deploying only to one side.

I think this is going to be extremely powerful. I totally get what you're saying about being able to move blips around, but this is still quite thematic. It's less something that dramatically changes how the army moves/fights, it just changes when they deploy to give them the initiative and a proper sense of ambush.

I agree with the above.

I really like the system in principle. It doesn't seem overpowered, but leads to lots of creative and interesting plays.

Ugh, the new models are too good. I'll definitely be picking up the codex and at least a small force for small games or to ally with my nids. I wonder if GSC will have their own version of the loyal 32.

With ambush now revealed you realize we can now guarantee a gunslinger ambushes 9.3" away with 3 neophyte squads. Pay 3 cp and dbl shoot him giving all the neos reroll 1s. Then if we are feeling frisky we can attempt assaults with the neos (If there is anything left)

Timeshadow wrote:
With ambush now revealed you realize we can now guarantee a gunslinger ambushes 9.3" away with 3 neophyte squads. Pay 3 cp and dbl shoot him giving all the neos reroll 1s. Then if we are feeling frisky we can attempt assaults with the neos (If there is anything left)

No need to double shoot with him unless there is a character to kill. His guns are enough to kill a single model for rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
They imply turn 1 deep strike, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Anyone can deespstrike turn 1. It's the extra rules that prohibit it. People not playing matched are free to do so.

We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?

Not Online!!! wrote:
We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?

Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?

Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.

So in other words this is an army that always gets the drop on you since you can't go closer then 9" in the first turn to the markers if I got that one right and if i want to be able to shoot at them i need to walk into them and my opponent is completly free to decide at anytime and change whatever there is under the marker?

Not Online!!! wrote:We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?

Daedalus81 wrote:Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.

Since the markers get exchanged for units either at the very start of the first turn (if the GSC player goes first) or right before the non-GSC player's shooting phase on the first turn (if the non-GSC player goes first) I don't see how you guys are interpreting that you won't be able to shoot or charge on turn 1.

The most that can happen on the board before the markers get replaced with units is a single movement phase.

Miaunderstood, Still a massive advantage since it allows for extremely flexibel deployment.

catbarf wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?

Daedalus81 wrote:Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.

Since the markers get exchanged for units either at the very start of the first turn (if the GSC player goes first) or right before the non-GSC player's shooting phase on the first turn (if the non-GSC player goes first) I don't see how you guys are interpreting that you won't be able to shoot or charge on turn 1.

The most that can happen on the board before the markers get replaced with units is a single movement phase.

Sorry - you're right - I stayed up too late working. Still, you can't get closer than 9", which is a big downside to fast armies and you get to position based on their movement choices.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes best case scenario you go underground with KM, pop-up 9", and spend 3 CP to shoot twice if your opponent screwed up or move D6 to try and get range. Very risky indeed.

It's not any riskier than spending 2 CP to put Bloodletters into deepstrike, then spending 1 CP and 15 points to get a Banner of Blood and a 3d6" charge, which is a gamble I'm usually happy to take.

It's not riskier than the various other ways various other armies use to get 3d6" off of their deep strike.

It just sucks in comparison to Index/CA Cult Ambush.

Bloodletters get +1 to charge so they actually are objectively less risky, and by a non arbitrary amount too. And even they are known to fail. I think missing the charge with a blob of aberrants or purestrains is going to be exceptionally punishing too, at least Bloodletters are cheap.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Bloodletters get +1 to charge so they actually are objectively less risky, and by a non arbitrary amount too. And even they are known to fail. I think missing the charge with a blob of aberrants or purestrains is going to be exceptionally punishing too, at least Bloodletters are cheap.

Orks, Blood Angels, I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, combined with various re-roll options, the least of which being a basic CP re-roll.

It's just not that risky, and I'll go ahead and qualify this with, 'in my opinion', and certainly not any more expensive than the various other methodologies for achieving the same result.

It's just not as good as Index/CA ambush.