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Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:
well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.

Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?

Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.

Well I am happy with what ever GW gives me. I don't play GSC, but it looks like a solid and fun codex to play with. In the end it is probablly better to have one more good codex, then another why-did-they-print-this book.

I do agree that even if the guns were costed 10pts, he would sitll a mighty fine unit for 90pts.

No, Karol, this is the wrong attitude, IF any of these Rumors happen to be true, this codex will be worse to play against then 5th ed matt ward GK, which were cancer to the game and started an arms race that ended in the 7th edition shenanigans which was terribly unbalanced, piece meal rules and other niceties.

I guess the next FAQ/CA will fix them, if they are too good.

Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.

Which I think is a problem with the rules of Cypher as he is a very underwhelming model to use. If people were truly concerned about lore they would be arguing about boosting poor Cypher into a proper hero/gunslinger status instead of making him barely middling.

I also think this is a good thread to start talking about how Cypher could be fixed. I think it would be interesting if he had been given the possibility of being both Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marine when it comes to allying, and that he could boost both factions with his heroic deeds instead of only the Fallen. It would have given us a strange counterpart to Roboute in a way except a bit toned down. Of course, there would have been some rule about him not being able to play with those who have the Inner Circle keyword as they are of course on the Hunt.

I think the big problem with Cypher is that none of his abilities boost his shooting skills which kinda betrays his master gunslinger reputation. Instead he just lies on standard 2+ with reroll 1s to Hit roll and then special guns. Since we are already talking about lore being representative I think this is something we need to take a good hard look at. A lot of stuff is going to outshoot him despite his legendary status.

Now the interesting thing is that his Plasma pistol is very much a souped up Liberator so he already has quite a bit of damage on his pistols already along with Armor piercing rounds. Now, since people do want him to be a master marksman it would probably be interesting to give him the same rule as the GSC Gunslinger. It would give opportunity for some really cool scenarios on the tabletop where the GSC Gunslinger and The Fallen Gunslinger would face each other in mortal combat. To be fair, at that point Cypher would probably exterminate the GSC since he has near auto-hit with his plasma pistol along with extra shots if he is provided with that rule. My guess is that would appease a lot of people who want Cypher to be representative of the actual lore.


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ttps://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/990/769252.page#10329676

knock yourself out.

Thank you.

Cypher is 110?

Don't spread falsehood. Cypher is cheaper than that. He is more than 1/4 cheaper than that.

Wellp, forgot that he dropped 30 pts.
Cypher is still 80 and still massively outclassed and he was ONCE 110.

I have to admit that after all his doomsaying I am tempted to start collecting Genestealer Cults, although with my luck that will probably be a mistake and they'll turn out to be middling at best.

I am, however, very tempted to run a Mad Max Biker/Buggy gang with the new GSC models. Would be cool to run such a force against Ork Speed Freakz.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I have to admit that after all his doomsaying I am tempted to start collecting Genestealer Cults, although with my luck that will probably be a mistake and they'll turn out to be middling at best.

I am, however, very tempted to run a Mad Max Biker/Buggy gang with the new GSC models. Would be cool to run such a force against Ork Speed Freakz.

the sniper gal is decent enough for bikes and if the trait rumors are good you get one that influences bikers quite alot.

Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.

Cypher is still 80 and still massively outclassed and he was ONCE 110.

That kinda illustrates my point that he is a very badly designed character. Nobody took him at 110 points and nobody is taking him at 80 points either(unless they are going for fluff or narrative stuff). As much as I like the lore of Cypher - and look forward to it evolving - he is gak on the table. Which is also why nobody should be looking at him in regards to this. Find some unit that is similar, at a similar price-range, and does get used. Then we have a better comparison.




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Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.

Sadly that is probably true so my guess is that GSC will have their own "Loyal 32" spammed on the table. Not something I am looking forward to.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Cypher is still 80 and still massively outclassed and he was ONCE 110.

That kinda illustrates my point that he is a very badly designed character. Nobody took him at 110 points and nobody is taking him at 80 points either(unless they are going for fluff or narrative stuff). As much as I like the lore of Cypher - and look forward to it evolving - he is gak on the table. Which is also why nobody should be looking at him in regards to this. Find some unit that is similar, at a similar price-range, and does get used. Then we have a better comparison.




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Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.

Sadly that is probably true so my guess is that GSC will have their own "Loyal 32" spammed on the table. Not something I am looking forward to.

Nope, gsc only gets supposedly half cp from broodbrothers.
Supposedly.

But neophytes are good enough at 5 ppm

 BertBert wrote:


Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.

The sniper on foot is 60. Not Kellermorph.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:


Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.

The sniper on foot is 60. Not Kellermorph.

In the GSC news & rumours thread there's a quote that states the Kelermorph is 60 as well.
Mellon wrote: "Rumours/leaks that were recently posted on the GSC-facebook group by Quentin Forestier."
"Found some more stuff,

Kelermorph is 60 [...]""

We still don't know wargear costs though right?

 Stux wrote:
We still don't know wargear costs though right?

The Liberator Stub Pistol would have to be 20 points in order for the Kelermorph to be somewhat reasonably priced.

My pessimistc guess is it will costs exactly 0 points.

Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not.

Never said it was bold. I do, however, believe in freedom of design for game developers. Then - depending on if that design is successful or not - we evaluate its results and act accordingly.

I don't know, I just really dislike "Sky is Falling" attitude as it is based on conjectures and catastrophic thinking. I'd rather see it in action and how it fits into faction synergy before whipping myself into rage. I mean, GSC is getting their own Agents of Vect for only 3 CP, but despite being a Drukhari player who saw her stratagem get nerfed I'd rather wait and see how the game plays out. Maybe they deserve a cheaper AoV than Drukhari to make up for other shortcomings. Who knows.

Now, maybe there are people in this thread who are like Dr. Strange and can explore every single eventuality on how to defeat Than... Gunslinger, but I require more than just words on a page. I require plays of the game to see if it is a reliable OP character killer or not. I have at least not made it a custom to play Warhammer 40.000 with only a characters or two on the table which could favor the Gunslinger.

Now, the interesting thing is that the Kelermorph is a part of a Kill Team set coming out so he has at least been tested in such an environment which tends to have a low model count. I am least going to be very interested to hear what KT players say about him over the coming week as they finally get a chance to test him out.

Before someone mentiones: Yes yes, I know, Cypher is the greatest character in the history of the 40k universe. Everyone should worship at his feet and we really need a Codex: Cypher to do him justice, and yes, I am getting a bit tired of Cypher being a metric for everything in this game. With this thread it could become a damn meme at this point. "What's the weather in Chicago right now?", "Oh, nothing ol' Cypher couldn't handle as he bore the big sword on his back." "Damn, Cypher is so damn chill. I want to be Cypher when I grow up." "Nah, don't even try. You are only good for carryin' a stubba' my good friend, you little rascal."

I wonder if we could get a Cypher emoticon.

Edit: Couldn't help myself. had to mock it up. I'd actually buy this book if it were made. Now that I think about it, could Cypher be our Shaggy?

 Eldarsif wrote:


Never said it was bold. I do, however, believe in freedom of design for game developers. Then - depending on if that design is successful or not - we evaluate its results and act accordingly.

I don't know, I just really dislike "Sky is Falling" attitude as it is based on conjectures and catastrophic thinking. I'd rather see it in action and how it fits into faction synergy before whipping myself into rage. I mean, GSC is getting their own Agents of Vect for only 3 CP, but despite being a Drukhari player who saw her stratagem get nerfed I'd rather wait and see how the game plays out. Maybe they deserve a cheaper AoV than Drukhari to make up for other shortcomings. Who knows.

Now, maybe there are people in this thread who are like Dr. Strange and can explore every single eventuality on how to defeat Than... Gunslinger, but I require more than just words on a page. I require plays of the game to see if it is a reliable OP character killer or not. I have at least not made it a custom to play Warhammer 40.000 with only a characters or two on the table which could favor the Gunslinger.

Now, the interesting thing is that the Kelermorph is a part of a Kill Team set coming out so he has at least been tested in such an environment which tends to have a low model count. I am least going to be very interested to hear what KT players say about him over the coming week as they finally get a chance to test him out.

I agree with the general notion, but sometimes the writing on the wall is clear enough to make at least some conclusions. It's not like 40k is too complex to assess a certain unit's effectiveness under reasonable conditions. A profile can be judged without having played it to some extent, because one can derive its performance from previous experiences with the game and other profiles. It all hinges on point cost and means of delivery which both point to being very favourable if the leaks are true. He's also pretty good at killing non-characters.

As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake

As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake

Could very well be. Has there ever been a similar lack of parity with other 40k to KT units?

 BertBert wrote:

As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake

It's because of how damage works for actually killing models in the Kill Team ruleset. D2 is terrifying, and D2 on a BS2 platform even moreso. That its D2 on a BS2 platform with three different weapons means he's the only unit that can reliably multikill with shooting attacks (you can only kill one model per weapon per turn, barring a handful of edge case scenarios).

Sterling191 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake

It's because of how damage works for actually killing models in the Kill Team ruleset. D2 is terrifying, and D2 on a BS2 platform even moreso. That its D2 on a BS2 platform with three different weapons means he's the only unit that can reliably multikill with shooting attacks (you can only kill one model per weapon per turn, barring a handful of edge case scenarios).

They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:

 BertBert wrote:

They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:

That's...what I said?

If it were Pistol 2 he could sit in the middle of a kill team board and have a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire side in a single shooting phase by himself.

Sterling191 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:

That's...what I said?

If it were Pistol 2 he could sit in the middle of a kill team board and have a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire side in a single shooting phase by himself.

My bad, I'm not that familiar with Kill Team and I thought the D2 was the important part here.

 BertBert wrote:

My bad, I'm not that familiar with Kill Team and I thought the D2 was the important part here.

It's one of the components. I genuinely question whether the person who came up with the statline understood how it would interact with the injury roll system.

so nobody gonna mention that the GSC "Agents of Vect" power is only 3CP instead of the adjusted 4CP for drukhari?

 bullyboy wrote:
so nobody gonna mention that the GSC "Agents of Vect" power is only 3CP instead of the adjusted 4CP for drukhari?

Also not limited to once per turn. just a side note.

 bullyboy wrote:
so nobody gonna mention that the GSC "Agents of Vect" power is only 3CP instead of the adjusted 4CP for drukhari?

It's also not turn limited.

But hey, its not codex creep at all right?

Oh noes, the GSC might be good! The horror, GSC being good invalidates my army! Let me scream my fictional canonical 'logic' about why that should never be!

By the way, the same rumors also completely hosed their ability to take AM detachments. Perhaps GW is compensating for that in some regard. Amazingly it's almost like they chose not to do a lazy implementation of GSC.

But please, continue with your fluffy, fairy tale justifications of why GSC should suck, the 'logic' is fascinating.

So let's take inventory:

GSC lost Index ambush, which by any reasonable measure was the best deep strike mechanic in the entire game.
GSC now gets half CP from their AM detachments (in other words, they will probably never take an AM detachment ever again).
GSC gained some interesting new units and god forbid, some decent ranged weapons.

Truly, the sky cometh down.

GSC lost Index ambush, which by any reasonable measure was the best deep strike mechanic in the entire game.

So what, all armies lost alpha strike capability, it also was a gimmick that was overrelied on.

GSC now gets half CP from their AM detachments (in other words, they will probably never take an AM detachment ever again).

Did GSC ever need AM in the first place as a crutch for CP?
I sincerly doubt it.

GSC gained some interesting new units and god forbid, some decent ranged weapons.

Two of which are better then any charachter that does something similar.
In the case of the Kellermorph it outperforms "the Gunslinger" of the game.
In case of the sniper, it grants a 6"/12" for biker bubble.
WITHOUT either needing a trait (WB trait is even more creeped by this), in case of the Kellermorph that just doubles his allready substantial ROF by double nearly, which other factions have to pay CP for.

I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.

Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.

But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.

Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.

But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.

You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.

The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.

The issue is, Cypher isn't good as anything other than a troll.

I love taking him-but ONLY for his "Warlord Trait". Everything else is secondary.

I'd be fine with Cypher going to 150 points if he got a substantial bad-ass boost, which I think we can agree, is probably better than just making him cheaper and cheaper.

 BertBert wrote:
You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.

The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.

I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.

The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.

Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.

But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.

How about a direct comparison between cypher and the Kellermorph plus some randos to fill the point gap, i am sure cypher has a fighting chance....

How about the fact that the biker generates a 12 " bubble for other bikers which are rumored to be just 10 pts. and a 6" bubble for non bikers?

With a Move of 14”, this Fast Attack choice is perfect for grabbing objectives, harassing targets of opportunity and hunting down vulnerable foes such as Astra Militarum Heavy Weapons Squads. What’s more, as Bikers, you can even set them up underground during deployment, meaning that you can threaten anywhere on the battlefield from the moment they arrive. Atalan Jackals are also one of the army’s more durable units, with Toughness 4 and 2 Wounds apiece (or 4 Wounds on the optional Wolfquad!), while their Skilled Outrider ability helps to thwart incoming fire.
*GW themselves. on warhammer community.

which are shaping up to be quite the nuissance. Especially considering that 2w models normally start at a higher point bracket.Not to mention a ingraned -1 to hit against all ranges.

That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.