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 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue is, Cypher isn't good as anything other than a troll.

Cypher is a narrative character. His lack of Adeptus or Heretic Astartes keywords makes him borderline useless in matched play.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.

The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.

So...

If no analysis is credible, how then is your analysis that what has been shown so far isnt problematic credible either?

Oh.

Right.

Not Online!!! wrote:
That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.

Cool story, bro.

You know that unit to unit comparisons are about as useful as lead floaties right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
If no analysis is credible, how then is your analysis that what has been shown so far isnt problematic credible either?

Yes, my deep analysis that GSC lost a bunch of stuff, then gained some stuff and GW is adding a bunch of variety to the army.

Yes, clearly my deep analysis hinges upon some truly powerful math.

Clearly you understood the point.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.

Cool story, bro.

You know that unit to unit comparisons are about as useful as lead floaties right?

Are you sure about that?

Or do you just want to ignore the fact that this is literally the thing points do?You know the system to balance things?

How would you then go get the values for units?
By playing Bingo?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.

The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.

I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.

The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.

But that's all we have to work with right now. The vacuum is slowly filling with air as more and more pieces of the puzzle being revealed and at this point some potentially broken design choices are being pointed out.

If it turns out to be a perfectly fine codex in the end, nobody is going to complain, but for now we can only discuss what we've got.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.

Cool story, bro.

You know that unit to unit comparisons are about as useful as lead floaties right?

Are you sure about that?

Or do you just want to ignore the fact that this is literally the thing points do?You know the system to balance things?

How would you then go get the values for units?
By playing Bingo?

If you want to ignore diverse strengths and weaknesses of units, sure.

"A Storm Raven will murder an equal points worth of guardsmen+HQs. Therefore Storm Ravens are OP or Guardsmen need to be buffed."

Point values indicate value, but not balance.

 BertBert wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.

The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.

I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.

The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.

But that's all we have to work with right now. The vacuum is slowly filling with air as more and more pieces of the puzzle being revealed and at this point some potentially broken design choices are being pointed out.

If it turns out to be a perfectly fine codex in the end, nobody is going to complain, but for now we can only discuss what we've got.

So maybe wait a week so we can see the full picture before you declare them to be broken?

I'd love to know how many games against codex GSC lists people have played to be claiming the sky is falling like this

PiñaColada wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:


Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.

The sniper on foot is 60. Not Kellermorph.

In the GSC news & rumours thread there's a quote that states the Kelermorph is 60 as well.
Mellon wrote: "Rumours/leaks that were recently posted on the GSC-facebook group by Quentin Forestier."
"Found some more stuff,

Kelermorph is 60 [...]""

If that remains true then he is the most poorly costed unit in the game - unless he's max 1.

Yes, he'll require CP, but GSC has a pretty easy time of that.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.

Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.

But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.

How about a direct comparison between cypher and the Kellermorph plus some randos to fill the point gap, i am sure cypher has a fighting chance....

How about the fact that the biker generates a 12 " bubble for other bikers which are rumored to be just 10 pts. and a 6" bubble for non bikers?

With a Move of 14”, this Fast Attack choice is perfect for grabbing objectives, harassing targets of opportunity and hunting down vulnerable foes such as Astra Militarum Heavy Weapons Squads. What’s more, as Bikers, you can even set them up underground during deployment, meaning that you can threaten anywhere on the battlefield from the moment they arrive. Atalan Jackals are also one of the army’s more durable units, with Toughness 4 and 2 Wounds apiece (or 4 Wounds on the optional Wolfquad!), while their Skilled Outrider ability helps to thwart incoming fire.
*GW themselves. on warhammer community.

which are shaping up to be quite the nuissance. Especially considering that 2w models normally start at a higher point bracket.Not to mention a ingraned -1 to hit against all ranges.

That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.

Yeah, maybe they cost 10pts because they're equipped with one guard-tier ranged weapon (BS4 autoguns or guard shotguns is the basic armament) and not, as other bikers are armed with, twin versions of better ranged weapons. And they also most likely since they're neophytes get 2 S3 attacks in melee total (with their free cultist knife chainsword attack)

Gwarsh, I wonder why those models cost only 10pts, they must be sooo op. They do half the ranged damage that a tactical marine does for 3 points less, and everyone knows how much this forum considers those guys to be regular ol' damage hoses.

OK, I don't think anyone here wants the GSC to come out and be utter trash, so the constant back and forth bickering is quite childish. The point that many are making, is that shouldn't be Mary Sued (hate that term really) to achieve this end, especially when it slaps the lore in the face. There is NO way that a Liberator autostub should be better than relic weapons from chapters that date back thousands of years. That is poor writing, piss poor writing actually. It's obvious that someone in the design team has a serious hard on for GSC (who would have thought they were the faction that were going to get a crap-ton of new models instead of harlequins, Necrons, Drukhari etc).

I want GSC to be viable, fun, tricksy, all of those things, but don't achieve those goals by super-buffing somewhat average characters. The comparison to Cypher is a very valid one, he is supposed the be THE gunslinger of the galaxy, with 1000s of years exeperience, some guiding hand assisting him and wielding ancient artefacts for weapons. His bolt pistol should be D2 if the Kellermorph is a benchmark and be able to target characters. Then he migh be taken more seriously, right now he's just not taken, period.

Except Cypher is, like most Marines, not very good.

He's got a nifty ability that has NOTHING to do with his offensive prowess. If Cypher was more badass (as he should be) would there still be the same objections?

 bullyboy wrote:
OK, I don't think anyone here wants the GSC to come out and be utter trash, so the constant back and forth bickering is quite childish. The point that many are making, is that shouldn't be Mary Sued (hate that term really) to achieve this end, especially when it slaps the lore in the face. There is NO way that a Liberator autostub should be better than relic weapons from chapters that date back thousands of years. That is poor writing, piss poor writing actually. It's obvious that someone in the design team has a serious hard on for GSC (who would have thought they were the faction that were going to get a crap-ton of new models instead of harlequins, Necrons, Drukhari etc).

I want GSC to be viable, fun, tricksy, all of those things, but don't achieve those goals by super-buffing somewhat average characters. The comparison to Cypher is a very valid one, he is supposed the be THE gunslinger of the galaxy, with 1000s of years exeperience, some guiding hand assisting him and wielding ancient artefacts for weapons. His bolt pistol should be D2 if the Kellermorph is a benchmark and be able to target characters. Then he migh be taken more seriously, right now he's just not taken, period.

Excellent post. See? Now we're having a semantic argument, not a rules argument, so much better.

I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.

sniper lady:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.

Illic Nightspear:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.

Sgt Telion:

BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.

Vindicare Assassin:

BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.

Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.

So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."

"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"

The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.

The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.

These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.

 bullyboy wrote:
There is NO way that a Liberator autostub should be better than relic weapons from chapters that date back thousands of years.

Plasma Pistol
Melta Pistol
Phosphor Blaster
Gamma Pistol
Macro Stubber
Flechette Blaster
Stub Carbine

Add Liberator Autostub to the list. It's that easy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."

"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"

Effn lol.

 EnTyme wrote:


So maybe wait a week so we can see the full picture before you declare them to be broken?

I'd rather discuss the leaks and previews now.

the_scotsman 770479 10330058l wrote:



Yeah, maybe they cost 10pts because they're equipped with one guard-tier ranged weapon (BS4 autoguns or guard shotguns is the basic armament) and not, as other bikers are armed with, twin versions of better ranged weapons. And they also most likely since they're neophytes get 2 S3 attacks in melee total (with their free cultist knife chainsword attack)

Gwarsh, I wonder why those models cost only 10pts, they must be sooo op. They do half the ranged damage that a tactical marine does for 3 points less, and everyone knows how much this forum considers those guys to be regular ol' damage hoses.

To me a 10pts 14" movment model with 2w and -1 to hit is awesome. And that is without any interactions, stratagems, auras etc. The only time I can think someone could claim such a unit at 10pts per model isn't great, if his base unit was catachans that zipp around the board with a speed of a jetplane.

I'd rather discuss the leaks and previews now.

What is there to talk about when the book comes out anyway? The closest change is what, spring FAQ? so unless GSC are really over powered, this won't get changed for the next 3-4 months.

So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?

why should she be anywhere equal to a super ancient legend tier eldar, peek of imperial gene tech with artefact tier weapons or one of the best marine sniper in the fluff. She is a leader of bikers. Same with the tri gun guy, he aint even a special character, just a sort of GSC hybrid that pops up when the cult reachs a certain sized. And he is better then the guy whose whole shtick is being The Gunslinger. That is like an IG dude wresling down a primarch, because he is so awesome.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.

The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.

These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.

Couple things here:

1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)

2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.

3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.

The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.

These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.

*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry. To be fair Nobz are real punchy for 14 ppm so that's not an issue.

Those bikes though, phew. Wonder if they're weak offensively? Cause 10ppm for that statline is pretty darn sweet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.

I assume the role the bikers are meant for is more board control, holding objectives and tying up gunlines. That seems like it'd be a balanced take on 'em because if they have real killing abilities as well then 10ppm is a real bargain

*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry

From what I understand FAQs are not going to have point changes, only CA have those, so it is 11 months waiting minimum. Unless GW decides to update orcs with new models or a new detachment.

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.

sniper lady:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.

Illic Nightspear:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.

Sgt Telion:

BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.

Vindicare Assassin:

BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.

Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.

So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."

"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"

I have no issue with the sniper character, she matches most others for points.

As for your childish remark at the end (kind of a usual trait for you), if you don't care about the lore for the game, why bother playing? Yes, Cypher is the ultimate Mary Sue, that's pretty much his thing. I want to know how the design team are going to spin the Kellermorph story to actually surpass this guy, should be hilarious.

The gun is too good for what it should be, and when it combines with his abilities it becomes silly. take one or the other, just not both. Either keep the gun the same but max it at 3 shots total, or drop the stats and keep the rules so he can effectively get 12 shots, but at S4 AP0 1D. Period.

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.

Spoiler:

sniper lady:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.

Illic Nightspear:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.

Sgt Telion:

BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.

Vindicare Assassin:

BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.

Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.

So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?

For me personally? It's that she's a weird blend of killy with support. It's also that she's not tied to a specific <Cult> like Telion or Illic(or Darkstrider for the Tau, who isn't really a Sniper but is basically just Support) so she can really get 100% usage out of her stuff.

I'm super happy for GSC players to get such cool stuff, don't get me wrong--but this feels (to me) like it belongs to a whole different game system or like a lot of these were ideas that were tested and rejected for other armies.

Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."

"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"

Gonna be honest here, my complaint with regards to Cypher would be that he just isn't that impressive and hasn't been in 8th.

Also for the record, I don't mind the Kelermorph's guns being so strong. People forget that Stubbers/Autoguns(and their pistol equivalents!) are able to chamber lots of different rounds. For all we know the Kelermorphs are using an explosive round or something equally custom-made.

Karol wrote:

*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry

From what I understand FAQs are not going to have point changes, only CA have those, so it is 11 months waiting minimum. Unless GW decides to update orcs with new models or a new detachment.

That can't be true, regardless of what GW has said. IK and dark eldar weren't touched in CA so what, they're going to be updated 18 months after the codex dropped? If they're updated then orks should be as well.

Also, side note, CA is the worst place for points updates. If the book has to be done 6 months before it drops then half the changes or lack thereof are already obsolote.

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.

sniper lady:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.

Illic Nightspear:

BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.

Sgt Telion:

BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.

Vindicare Assassin:

BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.

Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.

So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."

"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"

I have no issue with the sniper character, she matches most others for points.

As for your childish remark at the end (kind of a usual trait for you), if you don't care about the lore for the game, why bother playing? Yes, Cypher is the ultimate Mary Sue, that's pretty much his thing. I want to know how the design team are going to spin the Kellermorph story to actually surpass this guy, should be hilarious.

The gun is too good for what it should be, and when it combines with his abilities it becomes silly. take one or the other, just not both. Either keep the gun the same but max it at 3 shots total, or drop the stats and keep the rules so he can effectively get 12 shots, but at S4 AP0 1D. Period.

I like the lore of the game, I just get very tired of any kind of fandom-rage especially when it comes to the subject of the relative power level of fan-favorite characters. Whether that be comic book superheroes or sci-fi characters or 40k factions, complaining that Thing B should not be allowed to be as good as Thing A because Thing A is a thing I like that's been around for a while never fails to be annoying. If the R.Kellymorph is overly powerful, then he should be nerfed. But so far, he just looks like a 60 point assassin character who might (gasp) actually not be total garbage at the role of showing up and killing enemy characters.

My reaction to this is: Great. Characters in 8th should have more counters, it's ridiculous that people would rather have the CHARACTER keyword than 10W T7 2+ 4++ with a FNP because it actually makes your model safer. Personally, if someone were to go up against my deathwatch where I do have footslogging Hq's walking around and spent CPs to sneak him in 3" away from my screen line, I'd probably just say "oh that's cute, I have this here Auspex scan and you get a facefull of storm bolters." Or if he had other things deep striking I'd probably just ignore him, because even with 12 shots, he doesn't kill my terminator captain with average rolls.

Saying he's not allowed to be a character with pistols because some other guy who was released two years ago with the indexes is underpowered is goofy. Buff the other guy instead.

the_scotsman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.

The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.

These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.

Couple things here:

1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)

2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.

3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.

Thank you - I was going to type this up, but you saved me a ton of time.

I like the lore of the game, I just get very tired of any kind of fandom-rage especially when it comes to the subject of the relative power level of fan-favorite characters. Whether that be comic book superheroes or sci-fi characters or 40k factions, complaining that Thing B should not be allowed to be as good as Thing A because Thing A is a thing I like that's been around for a while never fails to be annoying. If the R.Kellymorph is overly powerful, then he should be nerfed. But so far, he just looks like a 60 point assassin character who might (gasp) actually not be total garbage at the role of showing up and killing enemy characters.

Right - a game that tries to match fluff to rules would be ridiculously boring.

If GW wants to give an army a sniper it should be with rules that actually make it worth taking and not a grubby cultist with a makeshift spitball straw.

I think the Kelermorph looks like an autotake, but its 0-1 I don't think thats the worst thing in the world.

I can vaguely - vaguely - appreciate the idea that stub guns shouldn't be this good, but if they were weird glowy mining guns would people go "oh that's fine then"?

I mean he could just have 3 laspistols - but in that case he wouldn't be worthwhile taking versus anyone.

Tyel wrote:
I think the Kelermorph looks like an autotake, but its 0-1 I don't think thats the worst thing in the world.

Is this truly confirmed?

For 5 CP he still murders 1 to 4 HQs, but at least it's a moderate investment for a one shot deal.

The big problem of comparing lore and gameplay is that the spectrum of values for units is very very very small. Space Marines are hulking brutes compared to humans in the lore yet they are only str 4 compared to IG str 3 because the range is just too small.

On a more related note it feels more and more like people were expecting Astra Militarum Xenos. Basically just a reskin of Astra Militarum with a few genestealers thrown in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think the Kelermorph looks like an autotake, but its 0-1 I don't think thats the worst thing in the world.

Is this truly confirmed?

For 5 CP he still murders 1 to 4 HQs, but at least it's a moderate investment for a one shot deal.

Sorry - I meant "if its 0-1".
If you can take 3 that's a bit lame, but eh.