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I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:

I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.

Numbers!

A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.

The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.

The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.

So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.

They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.

It's a 27/33 point model that dies faster to boltguns than a tactical marine.

If on one hand you're going to point at every other multiwound model and say "people will just target this model with multiple wounds with their D2 weaponry so that stat doesn't count" then why do you not point at this model and say "people will just NOT target this model with a damage reduction with their D2 weaponry, so that rule doesn't count"?

Guardsmen without FRFSRF get 100% points return shooting an aberrant with pick. That is the definition of a glass cannon unit.

Says more about Guardsmen than Aberrants imo. It is also not the definition of a glass cannon. It is your definition. I disagree with it.

You make it sound like these units don’t have native access to deep strike and can’t pick (see what I did there?) whatever fights they want. They are very likely to pop up turn 2 and mulch their target. Depending on what that target is they may well make their points back. These aren’t units you should or will slog across the board. Shooting at them with the weapon that kills them best is all well send good but by then they’ve likely wiped something more valuable anyway and they have access to a fight again stratagem that is flat better than the Ork equivalent. Their native deepstrike (and even the blip deployment) is also the reason I can safely say people will end up having to use multi damage weapons against them. They can pick their fights, whether that’s turn 1 or 2. They also have the best cc weapons in the game if I’m not mistaken. For ludicrous points?

I’m not sure what gives the 4+++ but Geoff mentioned it in his video so I assume it’s legit.

1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.

2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.

3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.

4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."

5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.

Yeah, that's a unit that will 100% do a HOLY CRAPITY CRAPload of damage on the charge. but you're spending 2cp to get them in Annointed Throng and the extra warlord trait for the abominant, 2cp to put Fight when they die on and 1cp to give them +1A for the phase, just for gaks and giggles.

Assuming you go picks and an 8-man squad, they deal 11 unsaved wounds to a vehicle target on the charge....not terribly exciting. At least, not "mulch anything they encounter" level, in my book. bump them up to hammers and you're talking 27, with the potential to cause even more if they're killed in your opponents turn. NOW you're talking!

But you did spend 564 points and 5CP to do that. And I hope you cleared a lane for them, because those hammers aren't nearly so inspiring splattering a screen.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
"Guys if you spend 5 CP, Have 350pts in Supporting Characters, some of which are useless and need random buffs, you can totally make a unit do x or y", the Thread.

These units are not in a vacuum. We cannot compare them apples to apples against things.

Aberrants, by and large, are the heaviest hitting thing that GSC have access to. Do we also then recognize that, because they only have a 5+/5+++ and reduce damage by 1, and are t4, that they are still hilariously fragile and can die to cultists?

Because a 40 Man squad of Cultists, even without double tapping, still kills 5-6 Aberrants on their own with no buffs, and 12 with a single CP used on them.

A SINGLE Cadian HWT Team kills an Entire Aberrant every turn.

This is their strongest unit, and as a result it NEEDS to produce more damage, because that is it's purpose. It comes in, it smashes, and then it dies to a stale fart carried by the wind.

You want so desperately to be correct and snarkily shove it in peoples faces that you refuse to recognize why things may be the way they are, and apply even a little bit of nuance.

Ok appointment got cancelled - time to slack off again!

I both think Aberrants are strong and terrible at the same time.

Power pick aberrants are cheap enough, but who gives a crap about a bunch of S5 swings (except the hypermorph - he's just baller)? Yet they can boost to S7 quite easily, so 5 S7 attacks per model is achievable. This isn't valuable in the knight meta though. I don't think this type of aberannt does anything useful that a chainfist acolyte can't do more cheaply.

So, we have to go up by 7 points for a hammer. 3 S14 TH attacks with a -1 to hit and one S7. That's not bad. A loyalist terminator now pays 41 vs this guy at 32.

They both have the same wounds and toughness.

Let's shoot gak at them.

10 FRFSRF IS

v Terminators
36 * .5 * .333 * .167 = 1 wound

v Aberrants
36 * .5 * .333 * .666 * .666 = 2.7
36 * .5 * .333 * .416 = 2.5 // fully buffed

Dissie Ravager

v Terminators
9 * .666 * .666 * .333 * 2 = 2.7

v Aberrants
9 * .666 * .666 * 1 * .666 = 2.7
9 * .666 * .666 * 1 * .416 = 1.7 // fully buffed


So they're like an inverse terminator and much better than SS vs D2 when buffed. Hell - a D3 wound has a horribly low chance to kill one as it takes only two wounds and needs to save just one or the other with a 58% success rate.

We don't put terminators on the field, right? And people struggle to get TH/SS to where they need to be, because they lack the things that get them there. Can you say the same thing about Aberrants?

What about attacking?

- Terminators get 2 hammer swings at S10. These gets get 2 at S10/12/14 and typically 3 attacks - marines have no similar buff spell.
- Marines can get up to full rerolls. Aberrants can get +1 to hit. Mostly a wash (.888 v .833).
- Marines can get rerolls 1s to wound. Aberrants get reroll 1s, but only once.

So a Chapter Master and Lieutenant is a wash on Primus and Magus. Then we have Iconward for 56 and 5 CP (which is like 8 to 10 CP to marines).

That makes Aberrants 50% more damaging than TH/SS termies when they hit. I don't think the abominant brings enough to the table for the points.

============================

Conclusion -

You have reverse terminators that hit hard and need to avoid small arms fire. They must be delivered by CP.
They exist in an army that has tools that can easily clear units that scare them and have tons of CP on hand.

The problem, as I see it, is you have to clear enough turns 1 and 2 to bring them on turn 3 and you aren't doing much on turn 1. If they have no way to real their ideal target at that time they will be a huge point sink.

It requires about 800 points in deepstrike so it seems doable, but questionable.

**IF** you can deliver 6 (192 points) of them and the standard support to a Castellan that has no melee invulnerable they will 1 round it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I’m not sure what gives the 4+++ but Geoff mentioned it in his video so I assume it’s legit.

4+++ is 2 CP stratagem





Automatically Appended Next Post:

babelfish wrote:
I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:

I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.

Numbers!

A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.

The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.

The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.

So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.

You meant 60 shots at 3 per gaunt on 20 gaunts, right?

60 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 13.3 GEQ //doubles to 26.6 for 2 CP

Total cost is 250 points and 3 CP.

The flamer bomb --

70 * .5 * .666 = 23 GEQ

Total cost is 160 and 2 CP

So, by "standard support" you're talking magus and primus, succeed the psychic power to get them might from beyond, take them in anointed throng and spend 3Cp on +1A and Fight when you Die?

That's 321 points, if it were me I'd probably bump it to 10 man squad just in case I don't get MFB/get overwatched by the castellan's 3 damage gun, making it 453 points....

Yeah. I'm comfortable with 453 points spending 3CP and taking down a 600 point target. 6CP if you want to make the charge reliable. Smash characters spend that many CP and cost less than half that many points usually.

Here is the strat.

Jeez. How did I miss that one.

I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.

Not unless it's a "before the start of the battle" strat.

 EnTyme wrote:
Not unless it's a "before the start of the battle" strat.

If that's the case, the only time you'd be able to use it is if you either walked them up the field, or they survived a full turn after showing up.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, by "standard support" you're talking magus and primus, succeed the psychic power to get them might from beyond, take them in anointed throng and spend 3Cp on +1A and Fight when you Die?

That's 321 points, if it were me I'd probably bump it to 10 man squad just in case I don't get MFB/get overwatched by the castellan's 3 damage gun, making it 453 points....

Yeah. I'm comfortable with 453 points spending 3CP and taking down a 600 point target. 6CP if you want to make the charge reliable. Smash characters spend that many CP and cost less than half that many points usually.

Not even factoring anointed. 6 * 3 * .666 * .777 * .833 * 3 = 23 and then rending claws.

Their spell is +1S +1A to all models in a unit.



Yes, additional models are probably required unless you get Mass Hypnosis off and turn off overwatch (but that's more points).

The odds of a relic plasma decimator shot killing them is pretty low. All the other guns could result in a couple dead though.

Are you really comfortable with that when the opponent has no chance to respond other than make sure chaff doesn't die? 6 Skyweavers with Doom support get 14 hits. That's 14 mortal wounds for 370 points. Add another squad of 6 to one round it like the Aberrants and it's 610 points. But these units are on the table and likely visible. If they don't get turn 1 a lot of them will die. And that's bleeding edge efficient.

the_scotsman wrote:

1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.

Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.

2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.

See below.

3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.

Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?

4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."

My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.

5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.

To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.

I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?

the_scotsman wrote:
Jeez. How did I miss that one.

I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.

That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.

Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.

2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.

See below.

3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.

Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?

4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."

My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.

5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.

To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.

I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?

1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.

 EnTyme wrote:
Not unless it's a "before the start of the battle" strat.

Do we have a source to defend this? I think this is the first ever case of such an interaction.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Jeez. How did I miss that one.

I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.

That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.

You can't. You can thank the FAQ that disabled the Pox Bloom shenanigans for that. Aberrants will only have a 4+++ if they survive shooting, which, if you're playing anyone competent, they will not.

 Cephalobeard wrote:


1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.

I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.

I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Jeez. How did I miss that one.

I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.

That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.

You can't. You can thank the FAQ that disabled the Pox Bloom shenanigans for that. Aberrants will only have a 4+++ if they survive shooting, which, if you're playing anyone competent, they will not.

Gotcha - that certainly makes them much worse. I'd rather dump them for chainfists if I wanted to kill vehicles.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:


1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.

I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.

I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...

You're not demonstrating a good knowledge of them, because counter -charging with aberrants is a terrible idea.

1.) If you reveal them, they're now eligible to be shot.

2.) Abs, unless carried by additional supporting units, will not be able to Heroically Intervene.

3.) Abs will likely not survive a powerful charge, because they die to a stale fart. A single smash captain likely kills half of an average squad, just as a basic example.

This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.

You "explained" it fine, it's just bad.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.

You "explained" it fine, it's just bad.

It does manage to preserve his irrational indignation though, so keep that in mind.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:


1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.

I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.

I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...

You're not demonstrating a good knowledge of them, because counter -charging with aberrants is a terrible idea.

1.) If you reveal them, they're now eligible to be shot.

2.) Abs, unless carried by additional supporting units, will not be able to Heroically Intervene.

3.) Abs will likely not survive a powerful charge, because they die to a stale fart. A single smash captain likely kills half of an average squad, just as a basic example.

This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.

You "explained" it fine, it's just bad.

You still haven't understood my example so clearly my explanation is flawed or you're just not getting it.
1. They are only eligible to be shot if they are in range and LOS.
2. I'm not talking about heroically intervening, I haven't mentioned it at all. Countercharge in your turn. Let the opponents' melee unit wipe chaff.
3. They were never getting charged. The chaff of your army gets charged. The Abs sit behind and mop up in their turn.

Why are you talking about units getting into your deployment zone? Have you ever gone second? Played against an army that can easily put first turn melee pressure on (Orks using Da Jump for example)?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
It does manage to preserve his irrational indignation though, so keep that in mind.

Rude. I guess I have to remind you that this is all in response to Cephalo claiming GSC are difficult to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'. There's many Dark Eldar players proving this theory wrong as I write this. They are +literally+ the most successful mono army as of now.

And you talk to me of irrational indignation? Please.

So we're not "Counter Charging", we're literally just "Charging".

Heroically Intervening, Stooping Dive, those would be "Counter Charges".

Our army... shouldn't... have chaff... that's not how GSC functions.

This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."

75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.

I'm talking about units in your deployment zone because you used the absolutely awful example of units charging you turn one, and you counter charging. Following that example, there is no where else you could physically be for them to charge.

I suppose that "other than relic weapons, named character weapons, and monster/vehicle weapons" I can't name a better weapon than a thunder hammer....which is a weapon that a LOT of codexes have access to an equivalent to...

You know I would probably have thought the best melee weapon in the game wouldn't suddenly exclude relics, character weapons and monster/vehicle weapons.

I will definitely say that aberrants are solidly better than TH/SS terminators as an anti-tank deep strike unit, and way better than killsaw nobz for sure. I don't like Pick aberrants better than big choppa nobz. I'm on the fence about killsaw meganobz vs hammer aberrants. You can definitely buff the aberrants way more than the manz, but I think the minimum cost of using the manz is far lower because you can just slap evil sunz on them and call it a day. No reason to spend any CP/cast any powers just to make them meet a "bare minimum level of accepability." Also, orks have much better ways to clear chaff round 1 to get them ready to rock turn 2 IMO. GSC can clear chaff like nobodys business...on turn 2.

Even with CTFAE, I think you need *something* to make the aberrants better at charging. 8" charge with just a single die reroll available is still only 62% compound probability which is a little risky for a unit thats best build starts at 165.

As an aside, I am a tiny bit miffed they seem to have raised the min unit size from 4 to 5, just so those of us who bought DW:O have to buy the new kit to field these guys. A very GW move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
So we're not "Counter Charging", we're literally just "Charging".

Heroically Intervening, Stooping Dive, those would be "Counter Charges".

Our army... shouldn't... have chaff... that's not how GSC functions.

This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."

75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.

I'm talking about units in your deployment zone because you used the absolutely awful example of units charging you turn one, and you counter charging. Following that example, there is no where else you could physically be for them to charge.

Isn't it 50%, bare minimum?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.

The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.

But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.

Isn't it 50%, bare minimum?

GSC Has tricks designed to Circumvent that.

Specifically a stratagem that allows you to move three units from "ambush" to "underground".

So, you leave your 3 most expensive units on the table (See: Abbs, Patriarchs, etc), and during movement phase 1 you spend a single CP to move them into Reserve. This allows you to have 1000-1725pts or so, roughly, reliably in reserve. Only further requirement is units on the table, which through a mixture of MSU Acolytes, Characters, Mortars, etc, you can easily reach.

My army has about 10 drops on the table, the rest is all in reserve. I have absolutely nothing worth being interacted with on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.

The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.

But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.

Exactly. The basic example is just a poor one.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."

Lol. This is so wrong it's funny.

You aren't some tactical genius who is one of the lucky few to understand how to play GSC well. Are you trying to claim that they are any more difficult, less durable and more glass hammery than Dark Eldar? Y'know, the top performing mono faction as of now.

It doesn't take a genius to read a codex and figure out the best combos. Particularly with how fast the internet spreads information.

Dunno why everyone is freaking out about aberrants with hammers. They’ve been able to do what they’re doing since CA17 when hammers dropped in price. All thats happened since is their DS got more consistent but less powerful with the ambush change and they got a FNP and a few other minor buffs. The big factors to their power (might from beyond, Primus +1 to hit) have been around since index

I'm not a tactical genius in any sense of the phrase, but I'm demonstrating more understanding of how the game works than you are as a basis.

Doubling down on your poor choices here isn't making you more correct, it's just getting you to respond more emotionally.

This entire page is just people illustrating why your example is wrong.

You haven't changed that.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.

The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.

But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.

You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?

Fair enough. Perhaps the example was a poor one.

Please do respond to my many, other points at your leisure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not a tactical genius in any sense of the phrase, but I'm demonstrating more understanding of how the game works than you are as a basis.

Doubling down on your poor choices here isn't making you more correct, it's just getting you to respond more emotionally.

This entire page is just people illustrating why your example is wrong.

You haven't changed that.

Not really? Your claim that GSC will be 'too hard to pilot' because they are a 'glass cannon' army is false on 2 levels.
1. Glass cannon armies are not too difficult for players to pilot - as evidenced by DEldar.
2. GSC are actually durable - see T5, 5+, 4+++ with rr 1s Aberrants. See 10 ppm T4, 2W bikes with -1 to hit. See the Ridge runner.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?

Sure, I play Chaos, I have several options to accomplish this with Warptime, the rest of the example still stands though. Somehow the Aberrants would have to be entirely out of sight, untargetable, yet able to charge on their turn easily. It's simply a situation where you kind of have to screw up or not understand your opponent for that to happen, at which point, that's on you, not the codex. It just seems like a rather convoluted situation for someone to really screw that up. Perhaps I've just played against GSC a lot with ITC terrain rules, first floor ruins are to be avoided until the ambush has played itself out, admittedly, I didn't follow this practice last weekend, but that's on me, not my opponent's army.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?

Sure, I play Chaos, I have several options to accomplish this with Warptime, the rest of the example still stands though. Somehow the Aberrants would have to be entirely out of sight, untargetable, yet able to charge on their turn easily. It's simply a situation where you kind of have to screw up or not understand your opponent for that to happen, at which point, that's on you, not the codex. It just seems like a rather convoluted situation for someone to really screw that up. Perhaps I've just played against GSC a lot with ITC terrain rules, first floor ruins are to be avoided until the ambush has played itself out, admittedly, I didn't follow this practice last weekend, but that's on me, not my opponent's army.

I disagree. They can move what, 6"? So they can relatively easily get into a charging position from outside of range/LOS of scary ranged units.

Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'. Something I believe I have evidenced as false. I'll concede the above point regarding Abs and blips. I'm Interested to discuss other things I have raised but this probably isn't the thread for it, to be fair.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'.

I don't know about hard to pilot, I really am not a good person to speak to that aspect of them, I play against them too often. I know them almost as well as I know my own army sadly. As for the glass cannon part, for sure, none of their units have any real staying power. Aberrants are about as good as it gets for them and even they get beat down pretty quickly, in my experience.