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Timeshadow wrote:
So I have been thinking what are our best first turn shanagins?

I can think of 3 are there more?

Summon 20 Neos with 2 GL/2H Stubbers @ 9.1" and fire away. Allows chaff clearing is a huge distraction and could nail first strike (likely to give first strike as well though).

Sanctus Perfect ambush sniper shot allows 2 shots (one during your or your opps movement phase) good vs psyker heavy armies for chain reaction perils. (even better with relic rifle)

Biker Demo rush if opp is foolish enough to set up something within 20". Use drive by demo and extra explosives to make his day then drive away.

What other tricks can we pull that other armies can't?

Each of these tactics are relatively cheap (110pts or less) and can have a big impact on the game.

20 Broodbrothers that start at the front of your deployment. You cast “Psychic Stimulus” and “Might from Beyond” on them turn 1. They advance, and then advance again in the shooting phase from “Move, Move, Move!” (You need to have a IG Commander who has used his first order to “Move, Move, Move!” himself to be in range.). Then you charge the enemy screen or their scout units. Hopefully you can kill the screen and consoldated into another part of the screen. On your opponent’s Fight Phase, you will get to throw your attacks first again, since Psychic Stimulus and Might from Beyond are still active until your own Psychic Phase.

Edit: Oops, I think that the “Move, Move, Move!” order might prevent the charge, since I don’t think Psychic Stimulus will override that.

Edit #2: There is value on casting “Might from Beyond” on a blob of Broodbrothers, who are currently engaged, since you can immediately afterwards order “Fix Bayonets” on them to get a pre-Fight Phase swing with them. It would be situational, but perhaps a tactic for turns 4+, when you heavy hitters are all dead.

shogun wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Yet somehow Matt Root got to #1 Tyranids player in the ITC, by doing just this. Hmmm. How did Cooper Waddell go undefeated at SoCal open with 15x Kraken Stealers + 15x Purestrains? How bout LGT where the only 2 Tyranid players to break top 16 both ran this too? This is the top of my head, you are talking about a proven strategy here that's gotten a lot of results, it seems insane to say Kraken stealers don't work.

These are old lists at a different time in a different setup. Cooper Waddell got a Swarmlord + genestealer combi with a purestrain + primus combi with the old GSC cult ambush rules. This is not an argument for GSC players to include kraken Genestealers because with the new cult ambush rules it's makes much more sense to use GSC units for mid-field domination. Also 'cooper' didn't have to deal with teleporting ork greentide + loota bomb. I played the Ork loota bomb and could kill 3 flying hive tyrants in one shooting turn. Different times man.

This doesn't make sense. Different times haven't completely changed the ability to wrap something midfield, that you said only happened if your opponent messed up, but yet was something Matt Root outright said he used all the time, this is was your argument for why Kraken stealers are bad, and this is what I disproved, talking about the new meta is just shifting the goal posts. Yes, times have changed and the Purestrains now deepstrike a bit differently, and Orkz are another new match up where Stealers aren't that great, but the fundamentals of 40k have not changed at all and 1 match up where a single unit of Stealers underperforms but is still likely to do some damage, is not a death sentence for taking a single unit of Kraken stealers that doesn't have to be maxed AND CAN DO SO MUCH vs other armies. Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.

shogun wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This kind of hyperbole is a big problem with the community. So many people just write something off as "impractical" because you can't guarantee it every single game. If your opponent couldn't take any midfield ground in his first turn for fear of getting wrapped by a Stealer unit, that's a massive advantage vs a lot of armies. Many times they have to try contest it and do their best to deal with Stealers in another way. If you genuinely can't find a use for a single unit of Stealers in a Nids list, that's a you problem.

A 'stay of my lawn' unit has his benefits but that doesn't win the game. If you want to make a case for kraken stealers from a GSC-player perspective then give my a list. This is about GSC tactic's so assume you are making a case for adding kraken Genestealers and not a full tyranid armylist.

I'm not making a case for anything either GSC primary or Tyranid, I have no idea the context of the list, I'm just talking about the fact that two units have different strengths. The poster in question was talking about whether Purestrains are any good when Kraken Stealers are already an option without much elaboration beyond that, and that belongs here, just as it could belong in the Tyranids thread also. I don't know much else beyond that but it's not really relevant to this argument, he wasn't asking for list feedback.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
it's not just 180 though. Your burning a detachment and paying for the other requirements. If you go patrol you spend less but gain zero CP and are down to 2 detachments to acquire all your CP. If you take a battalion, your now spending way more then 180. You can try to keep it cheap by taking rippers, but rippers do nothing for GSC since all our cheap stuff deepstrikes anyway. I wouldn't mind the broodlords honestly, but the patriarch is far better and again every time you take an outside detachment, that's one less patriarch you can field. So your not making much gain.

I'll keep posting it to, it does zero to help mitigate a screen for later reserves. 15 stealers aren't surviving mid table for 2 turns unless your opponent isn't concerned with them. You need swarmy to butcher a screen t1 going that route and I don't think it's worth the points or the risk of going second. Remember the kraken stuff can't be blipped so it's going to be effecting your other deployment tricks.

The other units you can bring can have their own benefits and you can go as big or small on it as you want. The point is you called that "Stealershock", which 1 unit of Stealers and 1 unit of Purestrains most definitely is not, and you also said it hasn't been doing well, even though it has. It hasn't been dominating, nothing Tyranids has been. It doesn't make either a poor unit.


Remember here - the original question was "what is the point of Purestrains when I can already take Kraken stealers?" and talking about deciding which unit is better in lists.

I mentioned that you can do both in the one list, they both bring different strengths to bear.

I'm not sure where this idea that they have to both be hitting the same turn came from, or that they need to lean on each other to have an impact. One unit of Kraken Stealers is a proven powerhouse. Both are two very strong threats to direct where you want and they do different jobs and add good offense to your list if you want that.

 Strat_N8 wrote:


Yes. Most of my index lists consisted of 4 trucks of Neophytes, 2 trucks with demo Acolytes, and a trio of Rockgrinders as a starting point. One or two may die each turn, but they excel at pinning the opponent in their deployment zone and counter-act the usual issue with mass anti-infantry firepower. Taken en-mass they also aren't too bad against dedicated anti-tank, as every wound saved with rugged construction is one more shot the foe needs to make. Often by turn 3 or so I'd have a few destroyed trucks and a few mangled, but the foe was trapped in their own deployment area and I would be holding all the objectives.

I'm currently thinking of the following for an all-mech list......

I love the idea of running a mechanized list but it's going to take me some time to collect all those Goliath Truck models, they are not cheap.

I think a Kellermorph sounds pretty exciting in a Goliath Truck. I realize he won't give his reroll aura but giving the extra range and the extra protection to one of our most efficient units is enticing. Pity he can only ride with non-Neophyte units given the transport capacity.

Glad to see people floating different ideas. I like your MSU tactic with the Acolyte/Truck Cache combo providing 3 non-strat enabled demo-tosses per turn per truck.

Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.

 Jrandom wrote:
Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.

In other armies I would consider it, but I think GSC just has so many damn good relics. It's not the CP cost, it's the opportunity cost imo.

As far as my personal rankings for faction relics, I would go IG>GSC>Tyranids.

My favorites GSC being (in no specific order):

Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Amulet of the Voidwyrm (anti-Tau)
The Crouchling
Reliquary of Saint Tenndrec (Pauper Prince)
Vial of the Grandsire’s Blood (Vigilus)

I prefer force multipliers over individual buffing relics. I am just trying to find other potential uses for unpopular ones.

@shuppet

I think your either not being very clear or at the very least myself and it seems shogun are not following your thought process very well. I'll fully admit it could be my sleep deprived brain after the week I have had. So at this point I am going to have to see a list, even a vague outline. I am unclear as to what your suggesting as a tactic.

Because your not just getting these kraken stealers without spending points and the opportunity cost that comes with that separate detachment. I need to know how much your investing and for what purpose.

I apologize again if I am missing something I shouldn't be.

I don't get what you're really contesting in my statement? You and Shogun are both saying different things anyway so I can't address both of you at once with a single response.

Someone asked about taking Purestrains and what point they serve when Kraken stealers are probably better. I don't disagree with this (especially if you already have a Nids detachment, and they are part of the reason that makes a Nids detachment desirable as well), but pointed out that you can add Purestraiins to a list that already has Kraken stealers in it for a second aggressive unit that has a different route of offense, and that you don't need to pick between the two. A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.

SHUPPET wrote: Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.

Never said they're unplayable but you only want to compare both genestealer units in a vacuum and claim that 'their both offensive and good' so why not take them both? Well that brings me to my next point ->

 SHUPPET wrote:
A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.

You can make the case that 'kraken genestealers can still be nice and are not worthless compared to purestrained Genstealers'. But if you talk about a 'good strategy' then you have to look at the complete picture. Give me a list with your complete strategy. Red and I are just asking 'how' would you use them?

shogun wrote:

SHUPPET wrote: Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.

Never said they're unplayable but you only want to compare both genestealer units in a vacuum and claim that 'their both offensive and good' so why not take them both? Well that brings me to my next point ->

 SHUPPET wrote:
A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.

You can make the case that 'kraken genestealers can still be nice and are not worthless compared to purestrained Genstealers'. But if you talk about a 'good strategy' then you have to look at the complete picture. Give me a list with your complete strategy. Red and I are just asking 'how' would you use them?

lol wut

There is literally zero need to provide a list here. You're just looking for something you can nitpick to shreds as though it would disprove my point.

You take some Purestrains (maybe with a Clamavus who you probably already taking regardless of your approach), and you add some Kraken Genestealers to your Nid detachment if you want to take that too. This isn't a complex, or restrictive strategy. All the lists to do it in the past and find success with them, have also all differed in what they took behind it. Cooper Waddell's list took a more balanced approach behind it. One of the LGT guys just spammed Carnifexes. Whatever your playstyle or whatever tools you feel are best in your current meta can likely all fit behind it, this fact has not changed with the new options added in the dex, you still have like 80% of your points afterwards to build however you like, whether that's a focus on board control or further offense, whether its heavier on the Nids side or heavier on GSC, whether you want to use Hive Guard or Abominants or Termagant hordes or Flyrants or Jackals or a Kelermorph or whatever, the ball is in your court. Both Stealers and Purestrains have their role, and yes they can work well in tandem, I really didn't think this was such a controversial statement. At the very least I'd like to think you would agree that Kraken Stealers are not so good that Purestrains should be considered not very useful, which was what the original poster was questioning.

I haven't played much 8th so am checking for some clarifications.
If you play Cult Reinforcements, would the models you get 'back' have the same wargear, and specifically would they come back with another demo charge if you had thrown it before they were killed?
Also if you had a unit using Lurk in the Shadows, and then in front of it a <10W Character, and then another closer unit out of LOS, would that mean enemy units couldn't shoot anyone?

hangnailnz wrote:
I haven't played much 8th so am checking for some clarifications.
If you play Cult Reinforcements, would the models you get 'back' have the same wargear, and specifically would they come back with another demo charge if you had thrown it before they were killed?
Also if you had a unit using Lurk in the Shadows, and then in front of it a <10W Character, and then another closer unit out of LOS, would that mean enemy units couldn't shoot anyone?

With Cult Reinforcements, you would receive new models with new demo charges.

As far as the targeting question, you are correct. There was a problem with “Rhinoscoping,” where players’ shooting lascannons would block LOS (with 2 Rhinos) to everything but a character, then nuke that chatacter. So they had to change the targeting rules, so now out-of-sight units will prevent characters from getting sniped.

Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.

Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.

Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?

Buy a box of Goliaths, you can easily put weapons that you have left over on those bodies or even make more with the hammers in that box.

So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).

You'll end up using all of the troop options.

Not a joke.

 UncleJetMints wrote:
So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).

Whatever you do, don’t read through the thread here... Especially not from page 6 on.

Has anyone thought about putting a Kelermorph and A Sanctus in a Rockgrinder in a Bladed Cog hive cult? I don't one about you guys but that to me sounds pretty nasty.

So, no errata/ faq today?

I am thinking Monday for it.

so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?

UncleJetMints wrote:So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).

All three have their uses. Acolytes and Neophytes are your front-line troops while Brood Brothers serve as backfield fire support for ambush enabling. Broadly speaking the Neophytes are your anti-infantry troops while Acolytes are more your anti-armor troops. Both can also do a bit of each other's roles, but in general you'll want to have the Neophytes handle opposing light infantry while Acolytes go for vehicles, monsters, and heavy troops.

For mech you should be well served with a mix of Acolytes and Neophytes (roughly a 1-for-1 body ratio, though Acolytes can be run as five-man units to save transport space for characters). The Brood Brothers are more for ambush-centric lists that need cheap back-field fodder to hold down the fort while the tunnellers go to work.

 Odrankt wrote:
Has anyone thought about putting a Kelermorph and A Sanctus in a Rockgrinder in a Bladed Cog hive cult? I don't one about you guys but that to me sounds pretty nasty.

Maybe. What is the general strategy intended for such cargo and load-out on the Sanctus? Why Bladed Cog specifically?

ghost23 wrote:so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?

I think its going to depend heavily on what creed you are using coupled with the overall army composition. A list with a lot of jackals and/or vehicles generally won't be as CP hungry as one making use of mass ambush tactics. Bladed Cog, Hive Cult, and Pauper Princes should also be less CP hungry than Four-Armed Emperor, Twisted Helix, or Rusted Claw due to the unique stratagems of the former having more situational triggers and lower costs than the stratagems of the latter (or in the case of Rusted Claw less need to combo with other stratagems).

I think the Brigade is going to mainly be the purview of Rusted Claw or Hivecult since they already want to take things from the Fast Attack and Heavy Support slots while the others are mostly content with HQ, Troops, and Elites.

My lists are looking at 6-8 used pregame so I'm definitely one looking at a brigade and 2 battaluons.

 ghost23 wrote:
so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?

Considering most armies have a hurdle of filling the 3 Elite/Fast/Heavy/HQ and we are so hungry for just those slots it is actually really efficient using a brigade plus a battalion. I built nearly the same list using 3 battalions and a Brigade + Battalion and lo and behold it worked very easily into the latter gaining 2 CP in the process. The only reason to not use a Bregade is if you want multiple Cult creeds and/or allied Brood Brother/AM or Tyranids.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Could possibly convert the third detachment into a battalion by adding a Magus and shuffling around some points to get three shotgun Neophyte squads for screening. Alternatively there are sufficient points for a pair of Rockgrinders, an Aberrant squad, two 10-strong Acolyte Squads for ambushing, or perhaps a few Jackal units (I think should be able to squeeze in 3-4 basic squads with demolition charges).

I like your list and am curious to see its future iterations. I'd just like to point out that a you don't need 3 new troops for the third Bat, provided you go mono-cult as you seem to intend, just move the 4th Aco squad of your first batallions to the third one. You just need 1 HQ 1 Troop to fill it up

I have been thinking about rock cutters and rock drills, and the mechanics seem quite different. The rockdrill mortal wounds kick in at the end of resolving all of the rock drill wounds, so if you are lucky, a wounded model is standing there to get some mortal wounds dumped on it (apparently 2.77 on average), but only one model, as the rest of the models wounded by rockdrills are dead. Output up to 9 wounds (4 single wounds and up to 5 mortal...) Would make most vehicles feel pretty sick.
The rock cutter however is less accurate, but each time you put some wounds on a model, you also have a chance for the extra wounds to kick in - assuming that you have found some models who survive the d3 wounds, they are likely to get snuffed by the special rule. So if per chance you found a unit of models with 4w, you could potentially kill one with every hit. No good for vehicles - although actually you could still do up to 12w to one if everything hits and wounds, but against strong multi-wound models, the cutters really shine.

On another tangent, it looks like there are no rules for 'Scout' moving blips, which unless it gets errata'd means that you would have to set up Scouts first in order to redeploy them...

Thoughts?

I think I prefer the Rock Drill.

It’s Mortal Wounds mechanic is pretty reliable. And en masse, they’ll mess up tanks but good.

You also get to do an Arnie impression and declare ‘Benny, screeee yoooooou’. Each and every time.

I think that rock drills and rock cutters should be cheaper to compete with the rock saw. The saw seems to be just more reliable in dealing wounds and is also much cheaper.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.

Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?

It might not be "pure", but I managed to do 4 hammers and an improvised weapon by cutting the head off 2 picks an replacing them with a spare thunder hammer and the Hypermorph's hammer.

hangnailnz wrote:


On another tangent, it looks like there are no rules for 'Scout' moving blips, which unless it gets errata'd means that you would have to set up Scouts first in order to redeploy them...

Thoughts?

That is a good catch. You are right, you would have to set them up in non-blip form.