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No. I shall do no such thing.

They’re my army. First out the gate for me in 2nd Ed, and my chosen force to get me back in the full hobby.

What this codex highlights is the need for a fundamental revision to the command point system.

CP are the new "free stuff." Some armies just get it by existing, some armies don't. Tying CP to force orgs just further rewards armies that already have excellent points to wounds ratios.

3CP to get a guaranteed charge. Ok. Fine. 3CP out of 10 is a big deal. 3CP out of 15+? Nah.

I already have the models to abuse the ever living crap out of this codex with an allied force to my Nids. The biggest weakness to my Tyranids list was the delivery system for Genestealers. As Kraken, i could move them quickly and hope to cross the board. Now i can mitigate that entirely with Genestealers. I only need 2 good charges in a game. This is very good for me. I'm not happy about the balance in 8th though.

 Marmatag wrote:
I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.

It is not. At least with the paints. GW does a ton of “how to” videos that they don’t charge for, a painting app that demonstrates paint schemes, employs Duncan, etc etc. We don’t pay for those; except we do, in the cost of the paints. You actually pay Duncan’s salary by buying paints. There are a ton of free paint add-ons. If you’re using those add-one, you’re likely buying GW paint. And thus paying for those add-one. But Duncan and the other guys likely get salary bonuses/raises...and that’s where the $0.25 hike comes from. 100% fine with the prices on paints.

Not Online!!! wrote:

The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.

The blips just compound the other issues. It might not be so bad if the half they could hide wasn't so inexpensive and deadly. It might not be so bad if it wasn't a dead ringer to just pop up within 3" in an army that laughs at CP a bit more than most.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No. I shall do no such thing.

They’re my army. First out the gate for me in 2nd Ed, and my chosen force to get me back in the full hobby.

And so you might be a little to close to this to see the issue. It won't be pretty being the top dog with a potentially broken codex.


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 Marmatag wrote:
What this codex highlights is the need for a fundamental revision to the command point system.

CP are the new "free stuff." Some armies just get it by existing, some armies don't. Tying CP to force orgs just further rewards armies that already have excellent points to wounds ratios.

3CP to get a guaranteed charge. Ok. Fine. 3CP out of 10 is a big deal. 3CP out of 15+? Nah.

I already have the models to abuse the ever living crap out of this codex with an allied force to my Nids. The biggest weakness to my Tyranids list was the delivery system for Genestealers. As Kraken, i could move them quickly and hope to cross the board. Now i can mitigate that entirely with Genestealers. I only need 2 good charges in a game. This is very good for me. I'm not happy about the balance in 8th though.

I agree - if we moved to some fixed CP system where it wasn't possible for this army to pull of 3" deepstrikes and double shoot multiple times per game (and even as I focus on this particular mechanic there is so much more) then it would be much more reasonable.

That is the only hope I have of this being not a disaster.

Ahhh a new book and a new 'x army is OP' thread.

Why not actually wait until the book is released before making a judgement? There are limits to what can be tested in theory/

Umbros wrote:

Ahhh a new book and a new 'x army is OP' thread.

Why not actually wait until the book is released before making a judgement? There are limits to what can be tested in theory/

I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.

So, when are people going to boycott Imperial Knights? Or the Blood Angels codex? Or the Guard?

I've seen some things on GSC this last week but wow, the hyperbole on display is shocking. The book passed external playtest (which matters more than you may care about), internal playtest and development and had to be reworked to factor in ongoing beta development of the core rules. Calling it OP before the book is in the hands of players, even if it looks as good on a wounds/pts level as Guardsmen, is frankly ridiculous and makes me question the supposed 'skill' of these 'tournament' players

 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


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Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.

That would be pretty funny, as by my math the absolute maximum damage one aberrant could possibly do on a charge given PERFECT rolling is 24.

2A base

Aberrant nearby to make them explodes on nat 6s to hit

Flat 3 damage

All hits are 6s, all wound, all do damage.

fight again, all hits are 6s, all wound, all do damage.

Looks like the odds for that are... 0.2%?

Looks like slightly better odds than dealing 24 damage to a knight with 4 lascannon shots. More investment of aura characters and use of stratagems I guess.

*Shrug?*

The codex has not come out. Rules mistakes were made in the codex review you cited. You have not played a game with these rules yet. You really think that spending 3 CP for what amounts to a 3d6 charge is broken? See bloodletters doing it for 1 CP. Wounds are cheap and that's durability? Orks are the same points as Acolytes with higher toughness and easy access to a 5++. The 2 CP strat to deepstrike 3" away prevents charging, by the way. You want to survive a bunch of S3 flamers? Bring T4+ models with an armor save. Or, use a screen disposable enough that you will happily trade it for the 160 point unit they use to remove it. Because that flamer unit of doom that you're talking about isn't going to kill a 5 man Tactical squad standing next to a tree. GSC do look strong, I won't pretend they aren't, but lets not claim that they are so OP that they will kill a game that survived Ynnari, Smash captains and the Castellan when we haven't even seen them on the table.

If they were so OP that they ruin competitive balance, then the playtesters and excellent players who make their name finding broken combos would have noticed it.

EDIT: I removed some personal insults about the OPs intelligence, that doesn't really help my case. Try it before you say its broken.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
So, when are people going to boycott Imperial Knights? Or the Blood Angels codex? Or the Guard?

I've seen some things on GSC this last week but wow, the hyperbole on display is shocking. The book passed external playtest (which matters more than you may care about), internal playtest and development and had to be reworked to factor in ongoing beta development of the core rules. Calling it OP before the book is in the hands of players, even if it looks as good on a wounds/pts level as Guardsmen, is frankly ridiculous and makes me question the supposed 'skill' of these 'tournament' players

Not comparable, but we'll see what comes out in the wash, I guess.

I would like to understand why you think IK or BA are broken as stand-alone codexes. And why do you think they're on the same level of this codex?

GSC are categorically not a Win Button. At all.

Our infantry dies to a stiff breeze for a start, so holding objectives isn’t going to be a walk in the park.

Yes. Our characters are quite snacky. Shame they’re pretty much walking around in their pants when it comes to protection

Kelermorph? If he shoots at an enemy character, it is liable to be on the fatal side of ‘ouch, I’m bleeding’. But if you let him within pistol range of your characters, that’s entirely on you. You know he’s deadly. You know what I’m likely angling after with him. So make it hard. Bubble wrap them. And don’t come crying to me if you’re Gung-Ho ‘I usually take it in the face and ask for more’ character tries it and winds up Brown Bread.

Yes, I do have a couple of Snipers which are rather nice. But they’re also a FoC slot all to themselves. Each one I take means I can’t take something else. So don’t expect to see multiples of them.

Play to objectives, rather than Paper/Scissors/Rock-To-Face. Adapt to my army’s strengths, and learn my weaknesses (everything is quite squelchy). If you come into a game against GSC with the opinion that you’re halfway to losing already? That also, is on you.

Forget alpha strike attempts against me. Chances are I can use Blips, Deepstrike and some judiciously applied CPs to avoid much in the way of Turn1 carnage.

Where you can, make GSC go first, having deployed into cover yourself. Don’t give me the second player turn. That plays to my early game strengths, and of course gives me the chance to have the last laugh on objectives.

You know our capabilities, so you know what our broad strategy is likely to be. Our perks make that near inevitable. That is an advantage. So use it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm here to tell you that we need to boycott GSC. For you GSC players that are super excited about this book - you're going to be really angry at me and I get that...
...but if you want to build a better game you need to follow me on this.

Are you sure this isn't the start of "8.5"?

7e Necrons were insane as they were the first 7.5 codex with decursion.

But once more codices got decursion they became more reasonable.

Genestealer Cult players wait nearly 2 years for a codex. Finally comes out and they are asked(almost demanded) to boycott it. At this point I can't help but chuckle at the misfortune of GSC players.

I am personally just going to wait and see.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Yes. Our characters are quite snacky. Shame they’re pretty much walking around in their pants when it comes to protection

5++ (some with 4++?) With a +1 to invulnerable save tactic.
And a 4+ Unquestioning Loyality to pass the wound.

(Followed by Locus who UL on a 2+, who is a character so can in turn UL it away) with a 1CP stratagem to recover d3 W

So you get:
5++/4++ then either a 4+ UL or a 2+ UL who in turns UL on a 4+.

You're not as squishy as you're making yourself out to be.

 jifel wrote:
What kind of drooling entitled moron is so self-important that they think they know whats best for the game, without playing a game with the rules in question?

I made this post with the understanding that it would receive criticism, but could you take it down a notch?

The codex has not come out. Rules mistakes were made in the codex review you cited. You have not played a game with these rules yet.

Those mistakes are irrelevant to my perspective so far.

You really think that spending 3 CP for what amounts to a 3d6 charge is broken? See bloodletters doing it for 1 CP.

It's not just a 3D6 charge. It's a 9" charge with +3 in some cases.

Wounds are cheap and that's durability? Orks are the same points as Acolytes with higher toughness and easy access to a 5++.

Orks do not carry hand flamers for 1 point. Their 2 attacks also do not have rend.

The 2 CP strat to deepstrike 3" away prevents charging, by the way. You want to survive a bunch of S3 flamers? Bring T4+ models with an armor save.

Not everyone has those. 20D6 S3 = 8 dead marines - that's 104 points and possibly a couple of morale checks. Or I could just come in with 5 demo charges and 15 hand flamers - that's 12 dead marines.

Or, use a screen disposable enough that you will happily trade it for the 160 point unit they use to remove it.

Also pretty easily removed by dakka fexes if you wish.

Because that flamer unit of doom that you're talking about isn't going to kill a 5 man Tactical squad standing next to a tree.

If those marines are in cover then they aren't screening very well.

If they were so OP that they ruin competitive balance, then the playtesters and excellent players who make their name finding broken combos would have noticed it.

I have respect for them. I have trust that GW will eventually fix issues that need fixing. I just find this situation to be a bit further beyond the pale and that it needs attention sooner rather than later.

With regard to Undying Loyalty. Can’t imagine what the answer to that might be.

I mean, one could shoot up any bodyguard units I suppose. But that’s just crazy talk. I mean, it’s not as if you have to chew through said bodyguard units in the first place just to reliably target the characters. What’s next? Dogs loving snow?

Oh I’ll have a Locus for every character will I? Eating up further FoC slots, just to keep A.N.Other up and about?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With regard to Undying Loyalty. Can’t imagine what the answer to that might be.

I mean, one could shoot up any bodyguard units I suppose. But that’s just crazy talk. I mean, it’s not as if you have to chew through said bodyguard units in the first place just to reliably target the characters. What’s next? Dogs loving snow?

Oh I’ll have a Locus for every character will I? Eating up further FoC slots, just to keep A.N.Other up and about?

I'm not sure what point you're addressing here?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.

You talk about that video as if no-one else has watched it. Geoff gave us a really good insight, but he also got a lot wrong.

Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?

Undying Loyalty is nice. But all you need to do is bump off surrounding, very squishy, infantry before going after the character. Which you need to do in most cases anyway.

 Fifty wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.

You talk about that video as if no-one else has watched it. Geoff gave us a really good insight, but he also got a lot wrong.

What things other than cult benefits for Patriach and GS did he miss? I'm happy to be corrected.

GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?

Undying Loyalty is nice. But all you need to do is bump off surrounding, very squishy, infantry before going after the character. Which you need to do in most cases anyway.

I've not really considered undying loyalty yet. There has been a lot to process and the layers of this army is pretty deep. My concerns have been elsewhere.

I couldn't agree more.

GSC seem absolutely broken.

Geoff's commentary is hilarious and I love how many times he says 'auto include'.

Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?

Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.


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GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo.

I am actually most curious about this force multiplier as I have found GW doesn't really take soup much into account if we are to judge existing soups.

the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.

Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.

Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.

 Eldarsif wrote:


Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.

You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?

This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.

the_scotsman wrote:

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.

Well, I won't officially do that until I *do* see them on the table, but I'm not confident.

In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.


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Darsath wrote:
This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.

It's a good 3 hours-ish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

It's not the whole perfect view into the book, but there was enough there for me to become imminently concerned.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.

You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?

No, you're having a very strong emotional reaction to what you perceive to be a new broken combo, in particular I'm guessing the 20 handflamer +2CP to get within 3" and shoot stratagem.

I think the element people (myself included) might have been missing with that combo is that the unit can't then charge. So in order to gain 70 S3 AP- hits, you're giving up 13 S4 AP- hits, 10 S3 Ap- hits, and 27 S4 Ap-1 rending hits (50 total that you would otherwise have, spending similar amounts of CP to guarantee the charge).

Good trade against chaff, though of course it does cost CP, and the GSC codex has *a lot* more ways to buff those close combat attacks than they do ways to buff those handflamer attacks.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.

Well, I won't officially do that until I *do* see them on the table, but I'm not confident.

In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.

It's a good 3 hours-ish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

It's not the whole perfect view into the book, but there was enough there for me to become imminently concerned.

What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?