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It's one of those questions that doesn't need answering, much like no one needs to know where lightsabres come from.

I think we have very different definitions of "questions that don't need answering", here, because knowing where lightsabers came from and how they're built led to one of the better quests in the KotOR games.

IMO it's not so much that the ports do or do not make some kind of in-universe sense, but rather that they have been historically associated as a quirk of the space marines and as un/suitable for sisters as long service studs in their forehead would be.

 Sim-Life wrote:
It enhances their durability and strength in that they have a force field and can hold a heavy weapon unaided. It doesn't make them physically tougher or stronger, which is why their profile is and will always be S3 T3

Sisters armour does not have a forcefield, nor can it hold the weight of a heavy weapon unaided - though the latter appears to be ret-conned with the new models.
It does make them stronger, but only in so far as it counteracts the weight of the armour itself and relatively little more.

A.T. wrote:
they have been historically associated as a quirk of the space marines

Except they haven't. The Black Carapace is not just a series of crude cybernetic plugs.


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A.T. wrote:
Sisters armour does not have a forcefield, nor can it hold the weight of a heavy weapon unaided - though the latter appears to be ret-conned with the new models.

This is not a new miniature:



Sisters have been able to hold heavy weapons solo for more than twenty years.

A.T. wrote:
IMO it's not so much that the ports do or do not make some kind of in-universe sense, but rather that they have been historically associated as a quirk of the space marines and as un/suitable for sisters as long service studs in their forehead would be.

In that case I am sure you can easily find us several pictures of Space Marine models with such plugs?

This is literally entry level bionics. Bionics are completely ubiquitous in 40K. Models in all imperial factions commonly sport all sorts of bionic bits, cables coming out of their heads etc. It is in no way a marine thing. That idea that Sisters somehow couldn't use this common technology in blatantly obvious way is just bonkers.

 Melissia wrote:
Except they haven't. The Black Carapace is not just a series of crude cybernetic plugs.

The _visual appearance_ of which is a series of crude cybernetic plugs, much the same as those on the repentia. I even gave you a page reference for a picture of the yesterday.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters have been able to hold heavy weapons solo for more than twenty years.

Yes - while wearing a secondary exoskeleton over their armour.
That's why I mentioned it appeared to be ret-conned as the new sister retributor previews didn't have the distinctive exoskeleton. Which is a shame, another unique visual cue gone.


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 Crimson wrote:
In that case I am sure you can easily find us several pictures of Space Marine models with such plugs?

Deathwatch core rulebook (FFG) page 19.

A.T. wrote:
The _visual appearance_ of which is a series of crude cybernetic plugs

No it's not. The Black Carapace does not visually look like that at all. The interface ports carved in to the black carapace (which covers the entire torso of the Space Marine much like an undershirt) are quite refined.

A.T. wrote:
Yes - while wearing a secondary exoskeleton over their armour.

No such thing exists on that model. I'm holding it in front of me right now and there is no "secondary exoskeleton".

You're making gak up.

 EnTyme wrote:
@His Master's Voice - Isn't that the purpose of any prop, though? To establish a visual theme that lets the viewer know they're in a specific universe? Same with the ports. They're a detail meant to add a degree of realism to the model while at the same time establishing that the model exists in a sci-fi universe?

Sure. But SoB don't need the plugs to be a recognizable part of the 40k mythos. They already have plenty of strong visual cues to work with.

To be honest, while the narrative pointlessness of the plugs irks me, it doesn't irk me enough to waste everyone's time with my thoughts on building strong visual themes. Bu they do kinda bother me visually and I think the models look better without them.

I think it looks better with the plugs, actually. And the feet look worse wrapped in purity seals-- gives the wrong message anyway, crushing your purity oaths underfoot.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I can't help but think of those plugs the way I think of modern lightsabres and photon torpedoes - a sign that whoever came up with the idea values cool factor over preservation of thematic identity.

You mean something that was originally created as an afterthought and endowed with a ludicrous amount of post-hoc justification by overinvested fans and later, creatively bankrupt original creators?

I would agree.

In fact, I'm actually annoyed enough by A.T.'s talk about "secondary exoskeltons" that I hunted down pictures of the unassembled miniature. So here it is, the original, and ancient, Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter miniature:

From the front, weapon hands detached.

No "secondary exoskeleton visible.

And here, unpainted, arms detached:

Again, no "secondary exoskeleton" visible.

Sororitas power armor has never needed a "secondary exoskeleton" to wield heavy weapons solo. Frankly, including one would be a retcon I would dislike.

 Melissia wrote:
I think it looks better with the plugs, actually. And the feet look worse wrapped in purity seals-- gives the wrong message anyway, crushing your purity oaths underfoot.

I'd imagine Repentia would have her (more or less imaginary) sins written on the seals, whether they'd be attached to her forehead or wrapped around her feet.

But really, those are some of the best arm muscles on a GW model, ever. No need to spoil them with overtly strong detail.

Crimson wrote:Explanation was not something that was sorely needed, but I think it is something that it is nice to have.

There is nothing to explain. Their PA clearly did not require interface implants. This was not an obvious flaw in some poorly conceived fluff that needed to be fixed and inventing this interface requirement isn’t necessarily an improvement.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I think it looks better with the plugs, actually. And the feet look worse wrapped in purity seals-- gives the wrong message anyway, crushing your purity oaths underfoot.

I'd imagine Repentia would have her (more or less imaginary) sins written on the seals, whether they'd be attached to her forehead or wrapped around her feet.

But really, those are some of the best arm muscles on a GW model, ever. No need to spoil them with overtly strong detail.

Regardless, it's a matter of taste really. I'll enjoy having the plugs, and they look like they'll be pretty easy to shave off or greenstuff over (depending on the location on any particular plastic part) for those that don't like them.

And I agree-- those are some very nice muscles. Damn girl!

 Manchu wrote:

Crimson wrote:Explanation was not something that was sorely needed, but I think it is something that it is nice to have.

There is nothing to explain. Their PA clearly did not require interface implants. This was not an obvious in some poorly conceived fluff that needed to be fixed and inventing this interface requirement isn’t necessarily an improvement.

If you're satisfied with 'it works by magic', sure.

 Melissia wrote:
No it's not. The Black Carapace does not visually look like that at all. The interface ports carved in to the black carapace (which covers the entire torso of the Space Marine much like an undershirt) are quite refined.

Did you even bother to look at the image I pointed out to you.
Or perhaps just google space marine black carapace and pick the first image?
https://imgur.com/Jj40GK1

They are circular ports, just like those on the repentia.

 Melissia wrote:
No such thing exists on that model. I'm holding it in front of me right now and there is no "secondary exoskeleton".
You're making gak up.

Metal brace around the left arm (wrist to robes). Every single retributor model has the same extra reinforcement on their arms, unique to the heavy weapons.

I've made a point of painting them to stand out from the armour colour on many, many retributors in the past. So don't tell me i'm making gak up when you claim to be holding the damn thing and not seeing it - the arm reinforcements are clearly visible_on the picture you posted_

To be fair, Manchu's not saying they worked by magic.

FWIW, I asked a friend of mine who is a national-level broadsword competitor about the posing for these models. According to him they're uncommonly good two-handed sword poses. The main distinction between them and something like Tennis is how the user has to brace themselves against the weight versus simply swinging something light as hard as possible.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Crimson wrote:Explanation was not something that was sorely needed, but I think it is something that it is nice to have.

There is nothing to explain. Their PA clearly did not require interface implants. This was not an obvious in some poorly conceived fluff that needed to be fixed and inventing this interface requirement isn’t necessarily an improvement.

If you're satisfied with 'it works by magic', sure.

In 40k, this is THE standard.


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 Melissia wrote:
To be fair, Manchu's not saying they worked by magic.

They certainly did not, in-setting. (I agree, that is important to note.) But fidelity to IRL physics or whatever is also not the standard. All of this stuff is magical as against real life.

 Dr Mathias wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I think I said here a couple years ago that the only thing louder than the complaining from some Sisters fans about a lack of new models will be the complaining from some Sisters fans when the new models arrive.

That would be hard to measure, my impression is that most of us long time Sister players are just plain happy to have new models. From my perspective significant complaints are a vocal minority.

I agree with you, and hopefully that came across in the rest of my post. Actually, I probably didn't do a very good job of making that clear.

I just feel like I've seen this show countless times before, and there's always that segment (again, which might be small) that behaves that way. We all frame our realities in various ways, and expectations are part of that process.


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the_scotsman wrote:
FWIW, I asked a friend of mine who is a national-level broadsword competitor about the posing for these models. According to him they're uncommonly good two-handed sword poses. The main distinction between them and something like Tennis is how the user has to brace themselves against the weight versus simply swinging something light as hard as possible.

That's cool.

A.T. wrote:
Did you even bother to look at the image I pointed out to you.

Not interested in fanart as evidence to prove a point.

A.T. wrote:
Metal brace around the left arm

Compared it to another mini, and it looks pretty much identical to the "inside" armor of the left arm of the helmeted sister superior w/plasma pistol and chainsword, just slightly thicker.

It looks like it's more of a quirk of an ancient miniature than actually an intended design cue, as the same thing is not present in art for the early codices, or on the multi-melta model.

the_scotsman wrote:
FWIW, I asked a friend of mine who is a national-level broadsword competitor . . .

I must have missed that booth at my high school's career day.

 EnTyme wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
FWIW, I asked a friend of mine who is a national-level broadsword competitor . . .

I must have missed that booth at my high school's career day.

I mean...it's not his day job. Not a ton of openings in that field since 1500AD or so.

 Melissia wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Did you even bother to look at the image I pointed out to you.

Not interested in fanart as evidence to prove a point.

TBF, it's not exactly fan art. It's from FFG's Deathwatch which featured GW-commissioned artwork. That's actually one of my favorite pieces of Space Marine artwork. I do agree that it isn't really relevant to the discussion, though. At best, the book is secondary canon, and since FFG gave up the license, it may not even qualify as official lore anymore.

 EnTyme wrote:
TBF, it's not exactly fan art. It's from FFG's Deathwatch which featured GW-commissioned artwork. That's actually one of my favorite pieces of Space Marine artwork. I do agree that it isn't really relevant to the discussion, though. At best, the book is secondary canon, and since FFG gave up the license, it may not even qualify as official lore anymore.

I'll grant you that.

But the thing is, I'm going off of the actual description given for the Black Carapace. It covers the entire Space Marine torso. Actually it's never been described as also extending down the limbs. It's really more that it is another sensory and nervous system organ, rather than just "translates brain signals from the legs to the armor". Black Carapace is not just a series of plugs. It's... far more than that. In fact, the "plugs" (interface ports) are carved in the Black Carapace afterwards.

Right. So it is not important how it works... unless it works in this one specific way, then it is heresy an people need to rant about it for several pages!

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
@His Master's Voice - Isn't that the purpose of any prop, though? To establish a visual theme that lets the viewer know they're in a specific universe? Same with the ports. They're a detail meant to add a degree of realism to the model while at the same time establishing that the model exists in a sci-fi universe?

Sure. But SoB don't need the plugs to be a recognizable part of the 40k mythos. They already have plenty of strong visual cues to work with.

To be honest, while the narrative pointlessness of the plugs irks me, it doesn't irk me enough to waste everyone's time with my thoughts on building strong visual themes. Bu they do kinda bother me visually and I think the models look better without them.

Spoiler:

So I'm not against the plugs, but I will agree that I like the modifications in the image you posted as it does thicken the "fanatic" feeling which the lore describes. That said I challenge everyone calling the plugs a "retcon" or insisting they are ruining the lore to answer the following questions:

1) How did Sisters previously (metal model era) control their armor?

2) What is Black Carapace? [not it's function, but physically what components comprise a SM's Black Carapace?]

Now I'm going to straight up say out of the gate that those two questions are completely loaded, GW has never given an actual answer to either.
My point being that you have invented answers to both questions and are now arguing that everyone else is wrong for not agreeing with your own fanon mental image of how the armor supposedly worked. This is also corroborated by the number of people arguing the new Repentia aren't "naked enough" and then going on to describe imagery which doesn't at all match the original metals. Where did those mental images of raving women in purity bikinis come from?
Well the old codex art of course, which didn't have these interface plugs. But GW has never been consistent until recently about matching the art to the specific models so that's hardly a useful argument when older art would often deviate drastically or contain inaccuracies (I remember there was some art way back with a terminator hv flamer firing bolter rounds).

Finally, there's the issue of visual theming. Do plugs make Repentia look closer to SMs? Objectively yes. Space Marines have been shown without their armor and they have embedded plugs as part of their enhancements.

But we can also glimpse a much higher level of supplementary enhancement than anything seen on the Repentia. Also let's consider the alternative, what would the Repentia look like without any sort of augmentation?

A Redemptionist...

You can call that whatever logic fallacy you want but in an age where there are plastic Cawdor minis and a slight possibility of Receptionists as a future Necromunda release, it is not trivial to argue that a naked sister with doesn't look visually distinct from a normal human fanatic who picked up a chainsword.
At the very least the hint of augmentation is reinforcing that Repentia, while disgraced and divested of their holy implements, were once more than just a simple flagellant fanatic they might be standing next to.

 Manchu wrote:
For someone who complains about being strawmanned, Melissia, you seem pretty willing to do it to everyone else.

To continue your metaphor, the things you want to change about your house are clearly not the same things you love about it. Now imagine “your” house is actually home to several thousand people, some of whom have even lived there longer than you. The stuff you claim is broken might be what makes t home for them. Especially when we are talking about the basic floorplan.

The problem with this is that you're assuming ownership, when in fact everyone involved but the designers are just renting.

Melissia isn't strawmaning. She's (he's?) pointing out that you're using several fallacious arguments in this thread. I've been playing sisters since 3rd ed witch hunters. But you've flat out said that my opinion is worth less than yours simply because you bought your minis before I did. Nevermind the fact that I've had the army for more than a decade.

 Melissia wrote:
Not interested in fanart as evidence to prove a point.

Did you bother to look at the OFFICIAL art I also pointed you towards?
You do know the black carapace is described as subdermal don't you? It is not a literal carapace of black material covering the marine with holes cut into it.

 Melissia wrote:
Compared it to another mini, and it looks pretty much identical to the "inside" armor of the left arm of the helmeted sister superior w/plasma pistol and chainsword, just slightly thicker.

Well at least you can apparently see it now.
I'd post a picture of the sister superiors entirely different armour but honestly what is the point.

Even if the plugs are visually similar to a marine, marines are still completely different, as anybody with even a hint of familiarity with the lore will know. You’ve got the organs, the rib “cage”, and all of that. It just isn’t outwardly visible.

 Melissia wrote:
In fact, I'm actually annoyed enough by A.T.'s talk about "secondary exoskeltons" that I hunted down pictures of the unassembled miniature. So here it is, the original, and ancient, Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter miniature:

From the front, weapon hands detached.

Spoiler:

img]https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/132979222407_/BATTLE-SISTER-with-HEAVY-BOLTER-Metal-Adepta-Sororitas.jpg[/img]

No "secondary exoskeleton visible.

And here, unpainted, arms detached:

Spoiler:

Again, no "secondary exoskeleton" visible.

Sororitas power armor has never needed a "secondary exoskeleton" to wield heavy weapons solo. Frankly, including one would be a retcon I would dislike.

If you look closely at the left arm of the heavy weapons sisters, they have an extra hydrolic system compared to regular sisters