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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

Lemondish wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I would like to see them at least try something to break up the absolute superiority of soup. Either CP locked to detachment that made it or only Warlords detachment can use strats.

You still get to minmax across tons of books.

Too much money to be made by not fixing it. GW won't hurt their bottom line. That's what they care about. One and only. The problem has existed for several editions already. GW knows the effect. It's working as planned.

The Castellan and command point battery has been an issue for several editions? That's wrong.

What a joke of a comment. About a tournament THAT DOESN'T EVEN USE GW RULES.

This place has lost all sense.

Allies have been problem for editions. The problem isn't single units. It's soup. See any non soup's dominating? NO! Because soup is by the very nature more powerful than non-soup. Soup is dominating and will dominate forever.

You think castellan is problem. It is not. Pure knights aren't dominating. SOUP IS DOMINATING! Soup is problem. And soup has existed before 8th ed as well. Allies have existed first time in 2nd ed. Imagine that. OVER TWO DECADES AGO! It was problem then. It is problem now. It will always be problem as long as it's allowed. Anybody saying otherwise is pure kidding themselves or doesn't understand game design.

Only way different factions can work together is if they are put inside one codex factored in, with own restrictions and it's own point costs so same unit in book X costs even differently to same unit in book Y because in book X(which would be current soup) it is more powerful than in book Y. So in your stupid example the castellan in soup would cost more than castellan in mono list.

Soup is the problem. That has existed literally decades ago.

Don't fixate on single face of issue. It doesn't matter what individual part of soup is the hot sauce NOW. If it's not castellan and CP battery it's something else. You can remove those and guess what? Soup would STILL be better than non-soup. As long as soup is possible soup trumps non soup. Simple as that. You will just get different broken soup. The soup wasn't balanced in 2nd edition either despite no CP's and no castellan. It was simply different broken cheese. Soup always will allow breaking game by the very nature of allies.

tneva82 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I would like to see them at least try something to break up the absolute superiority of soup. Either CP locked to detachment that made it or only Warlords detachment can use strats.

You still get to minmax across tons of books.

Too much money to be made by not fixing it. GW won't hurt their bottom line. That's what they care about. One and only. The problem has existed for several editions already. GW knows the effect. It's working as planned.

The Castellan and command point battery has been an issue for several editions? That's wrong.

What a joke of a comment. About a tournament THAT DOESN'T EVEN USE GW RULES.

This place has lost all sense.

Allies have been problem for editions. The problem isn't single units. It's soup. See any non soup's dominating? NO! Because soup is by the very nature more powerful than non-soup. Soup is dominating and will dominate forever.

You think castellan is problem. It is not. Pure knights aren't dominating. SOUP IS DOMINATING! Soup is problem. And soup has existed before 8th ed as well. Allies have existed first time in 2nd ed. Imagine that. OVER TWO DECADES AGO! It was problem then. It is problem now. It will always be problem as long as it's allowed. Anybody saying otherwise is pure kidding themselves or doesn't understand game design.

Only way different factions can work together is if they are put inside one codex factored in, with own restrictions and it's own point costs so same unit in book X costs even differently to same unit in book Y because in book X(which would be current soup) it is more powerful than in book Y. So in your stupid example the castellan in soup would cost more than castellan in mono list.

Soup is the problem. That has existed literally decades ago.

Don't fixate on single face of issue. It doesn't matter what individual part of soup is the hot sauce NOW. If it's not castellan and CP battery it's something else. You can remove those and guess what? Soup would STILL be better than non-soup. As long as soup is possible soup trumps non soup. Simple as that. You will just get different broken soup. The soup wasn't balanced in 2nd edition either despite no CP's and no castellan. It was simply different broken cheese. Soup always will allow breaking game by the very nature of allies.

And once again we have to reiterate that both Infantry and Castellans are problem units mathematically anyway. So MAYBE, just MAYBE, the units are the issue rather than a mechanic that actually hasn't caused any problems as a whole?

So why then aeldar soup is king? And why imperium soup's without castellan are doing better than non-soup's? Soup isn't new to 8th ed and has always caused problems starting from 2nd ed. Just because you can't see problems besides one unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just mean you need to look out at the wider world than just castellan and keep repeating "castellan is bad, castellan is bad, castellan is bad". Make castellan 2000 pts and you will just have another soup dominate.

The sheer FACT that you can cherry pick units at will removing weak points makes soup more powerful by default. Having faction with good h2h but poor shooting would be balancable without soup but then soup gives you both best h2h and best shooting for same cost.

There's never been any iteration of soup that isn't full of problems. No surprise since it's impossible.

If you want balanced allies you need to put in specific units inside faction. Rather than IG book and knight book with own costs etc and ability to mix and match you need to have 1 books with same units but with specific restrictions and costs for both according to how they work together. That's the only way allies can be made to work. Having them on separate lists that works on their own and then can be mixed at will is always going to be broken.

It's almost like 2 undercosted units that are opposites design-wise, when combined with each other cover their respective weaknesses.

tneva82 wrote:
So why then aeldar soup is king? And why imperium soup's without castellan are doing better than non-soup's? Soup isn't new to 8th ed and has always caused problems starting from 2nd ed. Just because you can't see problems besides one unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The sheer FACT that you can cherry pick units at will removing weak points makes soup more powerful by default. Having faction with good h2h but poor shooting would be balancable without soup but then soup gives you both best h2h and best shooting for same cost.

There's never been any iteration of soup that isn't full of problems. No surprise since it's impossible.

If you want balanced allies you need to put in specific units inside faction. Rather than IG book and knight book with own costs etc and ability to mix and match you need to have 1 books with same units but with specific restrictions and costs for both according to how they work together. That's the only way allies can be made to work. Having them on separate lists that works on their own and then can be mixed at will is always going to be broken.

I already said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it for you.

Why would I take just the broken units in my codex if I can take other broken ones too? Why would I limit myself if the goal is to win?
If you fix the broken units, you don't get this issue. Infantry are already mathematically too good, regardless of what Guard apologists say. So why is that an issue with allies? It isn't. Same thing with Castellans and Cawls Wrath being stupid.

Dashofpepper wrote:Was the Admech player in the top Hulksmash?

Justin's Ad Mech took 4th

Pain4Pleasure wrote:It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Say what you will about the Castellan list, but Alex was the last person I and most of the people there wanted to win. Better to have a janky list win run by a good player than to have a janky player win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So why then aeldar soup is king? And why imperium soup's without castellan are doing better than non-soup's? Soup isn't new to 8th ed and has always caused problems starting from 2nd ed. Just because you can't see problems besides one unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The sheer FACT that you can cherry pick units at will removing weak points makes soup more powerful by default. Having faction with good h2h but poor shooting would be balancable without soup but then soup gives you both best h2h and best shooting for same cost.

There's never been any iteration of soup that isn't full of problems. No surprise since it's impossible.

If you want balanced allies you need to put in specific units inside faction. Rather than IG book and knight book with own costs etc and ability to mix and match you need to have 1 books with same units but with specific restrictions and costs for both according to how they work together. That's the only way allies can be made to work. Having them on separate lists that works on their own and then can be mixed at will is always going to be broken.

I already said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it for you.

Why would I take just the broken units in my codex if I can take other broken ones too? Why would I limit myself if the goal is to win?
If you fix the broken units, you don't get this issue. Infantry are already mathematically too good, regardless of what Guard apologists say. So why is that an issue with allies? It isn't. Same thing with Castellans and Cawls Wrath being stupid.

I think this is really flawed reasoning.

40k is inherently unbalancable. There will always be stronger units, and having access to those across multiple armies without restriction or penalty will always be a problem.

I'm not saying that Infantry Squads or Castellans don't need work. I'd increase points of the former and limit access to Invuln stacking for the latter, at the very least.

I'm saying that even if you did that, Imperium soup would still be preferable in some form to any Imperium mono list.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Was the Admech player in the top Hulksmash?

Justin's Ad Mech took 4th

Pain4Pleasure wrote:It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Say what you will about the Castellan list, but Alex was the last person I and most of the people there wanted to win. Better to have a janky list win run by a good player than to have a janky player win.

Personally, the way Justin acted in his game 6 on stream was pretty unacceptable. The game was his regardless, but the way he conducted himself and went about the situation was disappointing - especially for a stream game.


Unfortunately, the LGT is going to hang over Alex for a very very long time. But, refer to it as much as you want, people also need to accept that he won 8 out of 9 games whilst under intense scrutiny and observation. Whether or not he, and several other top players should have been there or not, is a question for FLG.

From what I gather, Alex played very clean games, and when watching the facebook stream of his game vs Nick Nanavati, I was more concerned about some of the “janky” moves Nick was making, as opposed to Alex. However, due to the LGT, the focus is always on Alex (as expected).

There was, and always will be, some form of drama on the top tables at the LVO. This year didn’t disappoint either.

It was a pretty good event overall from what I saw, it’s just a shame Mike Porter couldn’t take the ITC title!

Kdash wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Was the Admech player in the top Hulksmash?

Justin's Ad Mech took 4th

Pain4Pleasure wrote:It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Say what you will about the Castellan list, but Alex was the last person I and most of the people there wanted to win. Better to have a janky list win run by a good player than to have a janky player win.

Personally, the way Justin acted in his game 6 on stream was pretty unacceptable. The game was his regardless, but the way he conducted himself and went about the situation was disappointing - especially for a stream game.


Unfortunately, the LGT is going to hang over Alex for a very very long time. But, refer to it as much as you want, people also need to accept that he won 8 out of 9 games whilst under intense scrutiny and observation. Whether or not he, and several other top players should have been there or not, is a question for FLG.

From what I gather, Alex played very clean games, and when watching the facebook stream of his game vs Nick Nanavati, I was more concerned about some of the “janky” moves Nick was making, as opposed to Alex. However, due to the LGT, the focus is always on Alex (as expected).

There was, and always will be, some form of drama on the top tables at the LVO. This year didn’t disappoint either.

It was a pretty good event overall from what I saw, it’s just a shame Mike Porter couldn’t take the ITC title!

These people will never forgive Alex. Castellan are a bigger problem than any eldar soup. Only thing to do now is buff haywire, buff most eldar units, nerf Castellan, nerf guard, and a few other random nerds thrown the way of imperials and we will be in a decent game state again. /serious

So why then aeldar soup is king?

Ynnari is king which - if you have forgotten - is already combining a lot of the Aeldari factions into one faction(which would mean it's not even soup if you changed a few things). The first non-Ynnari listing is in 12th place with Drukhari. First Asuryani in 32nd place, which btw has Drukhari, but isn't placing really high.

If soup were the only problem then we should be seeing Drukhari/Asuryani/harlequin soups place higher more consistently, but the only Aeldari faction that places consistently is Ynnari as if there is a fundamental problem with their ability like being able to act twice with powerful units using psychic powers and such.

Kdash wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Was the Admech player in the top Hulksmash?

Justin's Ad Mech took 4th

Pain4Pleasure wrote:It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Say what you will about the Castellan list, but Alex was the last person I and most of the people there wanted to win. Better to have a janky list win run by a good player than to have a janky player win.

Personally, the way Justin acted in his game 6 on stream was pretty unacceptable. The game was his regardless, but the way he conducted himself and went about the situation was disappointing - especially for a stream game.


Unfortunately, the LGT is going to hang over Alex for a very very long time. But, refer to it as much as you want, people also need to accept that he won 8 out of 9 games whilst under intense scrutiny and observation. Whether or not he, and several other top players should have been there or not, is a question for FLG.

From what I gather, Alex played very clean games, and when watching the facebook stream of his game vs Nick Nanavati, I was more concerned about some of the “janky” moves Nick was making, as opposed to Alex. However, due to the LGT, the focus is always on Alex (as expected).

There was, and always will be, some form of drama on the top tables at the LVO. This year didn’t disappoint either.

It was a pretty good event overall from what I saw, it’s just a shame Mike Porter couldn’t take the ITC title!

Alex has a reputation that is well known among the players and organizers and it was earned by more than just the one very public incident.

As far as Justin's behavior, I know him very well and have played with him many times. I agree that it was out of bounds, but he played the rule as it had been played against him by many players over the course of the tournament as well as in other tournaments. He should have known better at this level of play, but quite frankly, he never expected to actually be in that position and the guy has only been playing for a little over a year and a half. Unfortunately all people will see is the stream and not the other 7 games he played. Is he intense when he plays? Sure, but he also does his best to play an open and honest game.

 Big Mac wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

"He should have lost". No, his opponent brought a 7 flier list and Brandon focused on removing his enemies ground units to stop him from being able to win the mission.
Doesn't matter how many immortal fliers you have around when you can't win the mission.

And ofcourse people are not just going to forgive Alex. The guy was caught cheating on stream ffs.

 Ordana wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

"He should have lost". No, his opponent brought a 7 flier list and Brandon focused on removing his enemies ground units to stop him from being able to win the mission.
Doesn't matter how many immortal fliers you have around when you can't win the mission.

Exactly. I was talking with Brandon's team mate (and 8th round opponent) during the final match and he explained exactly how they had planned to tackle Alex's list, and Brandon executed it and outplayed Alex.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

"He should have lost". No, his opponent brought a 7 flier list and Brandon focused on removing his enemies ground units to stop him from being able to win the mission.
Doesn't matter how many immortal fliers you have around when you can't win the mission.

Exactly. I was talking with Brandon's team mate (and 8th round opponent) during the final match and he explained exactly how they had planned to tackle Alex's list, and Brandon executed it and outplayed Alex.

Ah great, we have imperial lovers in this thread.. look, 31 to 30 isn’t outplayed. It’s called a close game. 20-31 would be outplayed. This was a game of skill on BOTH sides, like it or not. One slip up from either one would of meant defeat, but they both played very well. Some of us are just hoping that this win, along with mass emails to gw for the next month, spells disaster for the Castellan.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

"He should have lost". No, his opponent brought a 7 flier list and Brandon focused on removing his enemies ground units to stop him from being able to win the mission.
Doesn't matter how many immortal fliers you have around when you can't win the mission.

Exactly. I was talking with Brandon's team mate (and 8th round opponent) during the final match and he explained exactly how they had planned to tackle Alex's list, and Brandon executed it and outplayed Alex.

Ah great, we have imperial lovers in this thread.. look, 31 to 3 isn’t outplayed. It’s called a close game. 20-31 would be outplayed. This was a game of skill on BOTH sides, like it or not. One slip up from either one would of meant defeat, but they both played very well. Some of us are just hoping that this win, along with mass emails to gw for the next month, spells disaster for the Castellan.

LOL I'm no fan of the Castellan, and am perfectly happy to see it kicked down a notch or two.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

It seem that you didn't watch the battle, the IG guy should have lost, but he did just enough the first 3 rounds mostly getting obj and kept his IG alive to get by. the IK died on top of turn 3, so it did ok, nothing amazing, in fact on its turn 2 shooting it was cursed by the dice gods.

"He should have lost". No, his opponent brought a 7 flier list and Brandon focused on removing his enemies ground units to stop him from being able to win the mission.
Doesn't matter how many immortal fliers you have around when you can't win the mission.

Exactly. I was talking with Brandon's team mate (and 8th round opponent) during the final match and he explained exactly how they had planned to tackle Alex's list, and Brandon executed it and outplayed Alex.

Ah great, we have imperial lovers in this thread.. look, 31 to 3 isn’t outplayed. It’s called a close game. 20-31 would be outplayed. This was a game of skill on BOTH sides, like it or not. One slip up from either one would of meant defeat, but they both played very well. Some of us are just hoping that this win, along with mass emails to gw for the next month, spells disaster for the Castellan.

I agree the Castellan is a bit to good and can use some tweaking. But completely neuter it and we go back to another dark age of Ynnari just dominating everything.

Honestly I want to see both soup and the castellan fixed.

I don't want any of the actual base stats or point costs of the castellan changed with the fix - the aspects of it that put it over the top aren't its base armament or cost tbh. It's the access it has to simultaneously the best warlord traits and best relic in the game.

You should not have a relic bolt pistol that gets 2 shots and can target characters compared to upgrading your gun on a superheavy to a ludicrous degree. Just to highlight how ridiculous it is, imagine that there was a relic similar to Cawl's Wrath available for a Shadowsword or a Wraithknight to take, alongisde the regular relics in the IG and Eldar codexes. Would you ever take a slightly stronger power sword, or even one of the good relics like Kurov's Aquila if the alternative was to give your superheavy another D6 shots or flat rather than random damage or something?

Hell yes soup needs to be nerfed. EVERYONE should have some kind of limitation like GSC do where using command points on a different faction's units costs double or something like that. Doom+Drukhari also desperately needs to be addressed, probably with a real simple "you cannot benefit in any way from psychic powers generated by another allied faction, even debuffs" rule. I don't care about "immersion" - if a space wolf priest can summon a snowstorm and it gives all his space wolf buddies cover but magically doesn't obscure nearby allied imperial guardsmen, then a Death Hex'd captain can still have his invuln save against allied demons attacking him.

The game is orders of magnitude easier to balance when allied factions are more heavily silod and can be addressed individually, and it prevents nerfs to things that, without allies, are not a problem: see haywire and disintegrators, knight and blood angel stratagems.

Fixing Doom is super simple.
Just change

You can re-roll failed wound rolls against that unit until your next Psychic phase.

to

friendly ASURYANI units can re-roll failed wound rolls against that unit until your next Psychic phase.

yep, fix Doom, stacking negative to hit modifiers and invulns, castellan points and Ynnari in general and I think the field might look a little bit better.

I am more annoyed that the Admech player who got caught trying to use his House trait on his super heavy aux detatchment didn't get DQed. How many people did you use that on prior to that moment at the event. You can make the argument that he was just making a mistake and to an extent I would agree. But in the end it doesn't matter cheating intentionally or cheating unintentionally is still cheating. This kind of gak happens way to much at big events like this. If GW wants this to be an actual E-sport like they are pushing it towards we need to start hold people accountable for their actions. If the guy was accidentally doing something wrong DQ from even if it was proven that he was intentionally doing it Ban from event. I guarantee if event TOs start holding people accountable these kinds of things will go the way of the dodo.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I am more annoyed that the Admech player who got caught trying to use his House trait on his super heavy aux detatchment didn't get DQed. How many people did you use that on prior to that moment at the event. You can make the argument that he was just making a mistake and to an extent I would agree. But in the end it doesn't matter cheating intentionally or cheating unintentionally is still cheating. This kind of gak happens way to much at big events like this. If GW wants this to be an actual E-sport like they are pushing it towards we need to start hold people accountable for their actions. If the guy was accidentally doing something wrong DQ from even if it was proven that he was intentionally doing it Ban from event. I guarantee if event TOs start holding people accountable these kinds of things will go the way of the dodo.

The mistake is inconsequential to the way he handled it imo. My biggest question at the time was “why is he even bothering to advance anyway?” He didn’t need to in order to shoot a riptide and the broadsides, so, it was all just random to begin with.

As for going back to his other games, only those he played against (and himself) know what happened, and most events now have to rely on the mistakes being picked up by the other player and very rarely are able to introduce retrospective punishments on a “maybe this happened”.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I am more annoyed that the Admech player who got caught trying to use his House trait on his super heavy aux detatchment didn't get DQed. How many people did you use that on prior to that moment at the event. You can make the argument that he was just making a mistake and to an extent I would agree. But in the end it doesn't matter cheating intentionally or cheating unintentionally is still cheating. This kind of gak happens way to much at big events like this. If GW wants this to be an actual E-sport like they are pushing it towards we need to start hold people accountable for their actions. If the guy was accidentally doing something wrong DQ from even if it was proven that he was intentionally doing it Ban from event. I guarantee if event TOs start holding people accountable these kinds of things will go the way of the dodo.

Happens. Last LVO in Jan 2018, both players in the finals where quickening Shining Spears after deepstrike, even though the BRB Reinforcement rules prevent it and dozens of people in the comment were pointing it out.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So why then aeldar soup is king? And why imperium soup's without castellan are doing better than non-soup's? Soup isn't new to 8th ed and has always caused problems starting from 2nd ed. Just because you can't see problems besides one unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The sheer FACT that you can cherry pick units at will removing weak points makes soup more powerful by default. Having faction with good h2h but poor shooting would be balancable without soup but then soup gives you both best h2h and best shooting for same cost.

There's never been any iteration of soup that isn't full of problems. No surprise since it's impossible.

If you want balanced allies you need to put in specific units inside faction. Rather than IG book and knight book with own costs etc and ability to mix and match you need to have 1 books with same units but with specific restrictions and costs for both according to how they work together. That's the only way allies can be made to work. Having them on separate lists that works on their own and then can be mixed at will is always going to be broken.

I already said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it for you.

Why would I take just the broken units in my codex if I can take other broken ones too? Why would I limit myself if the goal is to win?
If you fix the broken units, you don't get this issue. Infantry are already mathematically too good, regardless of what Guard apologists say. So why is that an issue with allies? It isn't. Same thing with Castellans and Cawls Wrath being stupid.

I think this is really flawed reasoning.

40k is inherently unbalancable. There will always be stronger units, and having access to those across multiple armies without restriction or penalty will always be a problem.

I'm not saying that Infantry Squads or Castellans don't need work. I'd increase points of the former and limit access to Invuln stacking for the latter, at the very least.

I'm saying that even if you did that, Imperium soup would still be preferable in some form to any Imperium mono list.

That's also because of a lack of internal balance too.

For example, Marine artillery shouldn't be bad simply because that's not what the army is known for. If the unit exists, it should be okay at its role. Does that make sense?

"Fixing Doom is super simple. "
Because Castellian-Loyal32-Beatstick lists have it too rough. Lets nuke the thing that hurts them the *most*.

Why do people want to nerf one of the few combos that can actually threaten to remove a Knight?

Bharring wrote:
"Fixing Doom is super simple. "
Because Castellian-Loyal32-Beatstick lists have it too rough. Lets nuke the thing that hurts them the *most*.

Why do people want to nerf one of the few combos that can actually threaten to remove a Knight?

I'm sure everyone who wants to fix the doom combo-wombo is not also proposing rules changes that fix the issue of knights fueled with guard CP.

Definitely not proposing they both get fixed simultaneously.

If the castellan could only use CP generated by Imperial Knights Detachments, it would be ZERO problem in competitive play. Zero. That would cut the CP pool they have access to from 20+ with regen to an absolute maximum of 9 (assuming you can use the 3 battleforged CPs for whatever you want) AND you'd have other knight chassis on the table who would not have the 3++ that makes the castellan so defensively problematic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at how the meta is shaking out it is evident that both eldar soup and imp soup are equivalently a problem. They make up almost a perfect 50-50 split of the armies in competitve play.

Because its bs vs everyone else. You don't need it vs BA, but still get it vs me.

I actually like the guard list that won overall. Sure the Castellan is still OP and needs to be brought in line but a friend and I reviewed the top 8 on a podcast/vidcast we are starting and the list actually felt fluffy. Way better than that ridiculous cancer Ynnari flyer list with 7 flyers and 18 scatbikes.

It's always fun to see the Eldar lose.

Martel732 wrote:
It's always fun to see the Eldar lose.

Especially an absolutely degenerate list like that one.