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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 12:46:15
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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GW has been clear that they treat the community survey is a source of design direction. Thought it would be a good idea to discuss what Chaos players are looking for in the new FAQ. Maybe if we are sending a consistent message, we will get what we want.
Overall, I'm more satisfied with Chaos than I was in 6th and 7th. The deathstar builds are a thing of the past, randomization has mostly been abandoned, and there's fewer 'useless' units in the Codexes. We've seen a decent amount of new model releases in the last 2 years and the introduction of new factions (DG and TS) has been welcome.
At the same time, a few grand issues remain that are worth addressing. Here's my list, would love to hear what everyone else is looking to see.
1) Power Levels: the points of many Chaos units have changed but the power level rating has remained static. This creates some challenges, for example: the armies I use for matched play at 2000 points can't be used for a narrative game using power levels. I'd like to see updated power levels to go along with points changes.
2) New Models: I'd like to see updates to all 2nd generation models over the next 2 years. Fabius Bile in particular, the size of the model is tiny in comparison with other Chaos HQ units.
3) Summoning: Daemonic Ritual is a really interesting ability but it comes with too much risk to be practical in most games. I'd like to see the mechanics improved to where it competes with Denizens of the Warp as a delivery mechanism for Daemons. I would like to see official clarification about the nature of Daemon units that can be summoned, for example: can Bloodletters take the Banner of Blood if they are being summoned?
4) Legion Traits: I would like to see them adjusted so they apply to every unit in an army, not just Infantry, Bikes and Helbrutes. The problem with the way things are is the perception other factions have it better, just sick of hearing people bellyache about this idea.
5) Forgeworld - Unit Cost: several Forgeworld units cost too much to include in most armies. Would like to see their points adjusted to make them practical for matched play, even if it means adjusting their data slates. Examples of this include the Fire Raptor, Kharbydis Assault Claw, the Daemon Lords, and Titans.
6) Forgeworld - Renegades and Heretics: R&H armies don't compare favorably to Guard and Guard offshoots, like Genestealer Cults. I would like to see the line revamped, it's an important part of the lore and deserves better treatment. If possible, I would like to see a full Traitor Guard army available as part of the GW product line.
7) Emperor's Children / World Eaters: I'd like to see Codexes and new model releases for each chapter. I'd like to see a beta Codex for each chapter before it's released, similar to what is happening with Sisters. It feels like the community knows these armies well and could provide useful feedback on the design. Each one would be tricky to implement properly.
8) Chaos Space Marines: improvements: part of my enthusiasm for 8th edition was the idea Chaos Space Marines would have a useful role in most lists. While Bolter Drill and the ability to take lascannons were nice touches, but they are still outclassed by Cultists in most armies. While I don't have a specific request, I'd like to see them 'made better.'
9) Greater Daemons: despite their fearsome reputations, Bloodthirsters, Keepers of Secrets and Lords of Change don't seem to have a useful role in most armies. Which is an absolute shame, they have wonderful models and provide an outstanding thematic presence on the tabletop. These units in particular feel too vulnerable on the tabletop, I would like to see rules that give them a more foreboding in-game presence.
10) Marks of Chaos: I'm not comfortable with the absence of useful abilities associated with Marks of Chaos. I'd like to see them fleshed out in some way, either by buffing the unit taking them or through more Stratagems designed to benefit units taking them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 12:47:52
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I think it's premature, given there's about to be a giant Chaos release for 40K. Who knows what will change then. [EDIT]: I take it that the Power Level thing you mentioned isn't unique to Chaos armies?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 12:48:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 12:49:35
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Indeed.
If Chaos are about to get the same sort of treatment GSC just got, likely everything will be rosey.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 13:53:00
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Yeah, the fact there's a new release coming concerns me, which is why I focused on 'grand issues' instead of nitty-gritty rules changes.
I don't know exactly when the Big FAQ is coming, but I'd like to have a better sense of what other people are thinking before it gets here. What I'd hate to see is a situation where 1,000 people are asking for 2,000 different things and the design team has no idea what to do with the feedback.
It's true some of these issues could apply to any army, especially power levels and FW points costs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 14:27:39
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Those wishes are "bit" too much for FAQ. More of codex mark 2. Then there's totally pipe dream ones like making FW models more competive when GW wants opposite to ensure only collectors who don't spam same model are main target. Gamers they want to spend same money on more profitable plastic. As such we get 300% point hikes on models not even close of dominating tournaments and 33% price hikes on already overpriced junk that's basically automatic "I lose" selection(literally. You cannot win with one. Even if opponent doesn't bother to do anything about the unit)
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 15:15:11
Subject: Re:Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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All of the stuff from the first post I agree with. Also, they need to buy back the rights to Malal and make the Sons of Malice officially canon again, or make some equally awesome equivalent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 16:01:34
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Dakka Veteran
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Yup, Chaos needs some love.
Rather the game needs some love. 8th started out fairly good codex wise with the indexes.
Rather then everyone was awesome, everyone sucked.
But right now 8th is in a terrible state, even worse than launch because it has had a ton of FAQs bolted on without updates to printed material. Like the end of 7th when Chaos needed 4 books just to game with their one army.
Living Editions sound good, unless your printed material and the current state of the edition don't agree and are differnt. This breeds confusion.
Then the constant point changes w/o changes to power level creates even more problems.
8th currently looks like a looted wagon built by the craziest of Big Meks with all sorts of bits and gubbins bolted on in the most haphazard fashion without any thought to function.
It still runs but only because Orks think it does. There are some vast and fundamental game play issues in 8th that have never been addressed while they keep upping the "POWER GAMING" with each codex release buff on buff then nerf things in an almost random fashion.
It is clear they don't play test their rules because well Codex Eldar. But they never tested their rules since at least 2006
Take the "index" army lists and play a game of 7th w/o any of the 7th codexes and it works very well and is fairly well balanced with a "few" rules issues. .
There really wasn't much wrong with the classic methods of 40k game play except Codex Creep and allowing crazy things like Super Friends. All of which were "expansion and codex" issues.
Chaos are about to get a bunch of new releases and to sell them, they will get stupid buffs which will tilt the wheel even more out of round as things go on. Mean while CORE game issues and CORE mechanics and CORE army problems (like regular tacticals or chaos marines, your army list version here) being addressed and so on.
I love 8th, I love being able to tear down giant expensive models in one turn with the super-overbuffed and unaddressed Dark Reapers or even just regular guardsmen and the many lasgun dice damaging super heavies because.. yeah. Great. Lets keep throwing in the minus to hit because on a game that uses a D6 being able to swing a -3 to hit modifier when most armies only have a 4+ to hit means we are unhitable! LOL Good game rules, right? 8th is fine.. right?
HA.
Lets take 25 years of game mechanics and throw them out the window then bolt on random bits from the old rules, out of context and without any restraint or understanding.. NEW IMPROVED DAFTNESS to bring in new players by lowering complexity to rock paper scissors. Let bolt on new rules to satisfy a real need then introduce another that makes it entirely irrelevant and non-functional because.. we don't have any idea what we are doing. They hire a bunch of snotlings to randomly hit keys to decide how to make the game or expansions.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 16:08:01
Consummate 8th Edition Hater. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/14 23:56:12
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Freaky Flayed One
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meatybtz wrote:Yup, Chaos needs some love.
Rather the game needs some love. 8th started out fairly good codex wise with the indexes.
Rather then everyone was awesome, everyone sucked.
But right now 8th is in a terrible state, even worse than launch because it has had a ton of FAQs bolted on without updates to printed material. Like the end of 7th when Chaos needed 4 books just to game with their one army.
Living Editions sound good, unless your printed material and the current state of the edition don't agree and are differnt. This breeds confusion.
Then the constant point changes w/o changes to power level creates even more problems.
8th currently looks like a looted wagon built by the craziest of Big Meks with all sorts of bits and gubbins bolted on in the most haphazard fashion without any thought to function.
It still runs but only because Orks think it does. There are some vast and fundamental game play issues in 8th that have never been addressed while they keep upping the "POWER GAMING" with each codex release buff on buff then nerf things in an almost random fashion.
It is clear they don't play test their rules because well Codex Eldar. But they never tested their rules since at least 2006
Take the "index" army lists and play a game of 7th w/o any of the 7th codexes and it works very well and is fairly well balanced with a "few" rules issues. .
There really wasn't much wrong with the classic methods of 40k game play except Codex Creep and allowing crazy things like Super Friends. All of which were "expansion and codex" issues.
Chaos are about to get a bunch of new releases and to sell them, they will get stupid buffs which will tilt the wheel even more out of round as things go on. Mean while CORE game issues and CORE mechanics and CORE army problems (like regular tacticals or chaos marines, your army list version here) being addressed and so on.
I love 8th, I love being able to tear down giant expensive models in one turn with the super-overbuffed and unaddressed Dark Reapers or even just regular guardsmen and the many lasgun dice damaging super heavies because.. yeah. Great. Lets keep throwing in the minus to hit because on a game that uses a D6 being able to swing a -3 to hit modifier when most armies only have a 4+ to hit means we are unhitable! LOL Good game rules, right? 8th is fine.. right?
HA.
Lets take 25 years of game mechanics and throw them out the window then bolt on random bits from the old rules, out of context and without any restraint or understanding.. NEW IMPROVED DAFTNESS to bring in new players by lowering complexity to rock paper scissors. Let bolt on new rules to satisfy a real need then introduce another that makes it entirely irrelevant and non-functional because.. we don't have any idea what we are doing. They hire a bunch of snotlings to randomly hit keys to decide how to make the game or expansions.
IDK I really enjoy 8th edition, its no 5th edition (when I started, so probably rose-tinted sunglasses here) but I am enjoying it a hell of a lot more than 6th edition, the flyer rules were insanely broken and hull points turned tanks into a joke. Definitely turned me off.
I love the change in vehicle rules in 8th edition, wounds were one of the best ways of fixxing them. Even 5th edition had a chance for a decent strength weapon of one-shotting your tank, and that is a massive case of "feels bad man". Now it takes more than a stray melta shot to pop a tank, real resources need to go into it. Very enjoyable, but not that hard to kill for the opponent. I always thought they should be statted like MCs, so I welcome this change with open arms.
This edition actually kind of reminds me to WHFB 8th edition. Good rules, not TOO many OP rules (Looking at you Purple Sun), but definitely a more deadly edition, and definitely favored hordes of cheap dudes over elite ones. I am bummed that my marines aren't super great anymore, and I am working on some cultists instead, but that is because my playgroup are all somewhat competitive. Don't really do tourneys, but we do play to win. What I know I do not miss though, is the obnoxiousness of old school cover saves. Giving everyone a 4++ or 5++ really slowed the game down IMO, ditto with trying to pop 2+ and 3+ armor saves if you didn't have any specialty weapons for them.
What I am trying to say is this edition isn't so bad and I am really happy to see GW pumping out new rules to see what sticks and what doesn't. It keeps the game fresh for me. I understand there is some confusion, and it will get crazy next year when we all need our vigilus books, CA, codex, etc to play, but I am really optimistic about the future of 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 18:34:02
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Been Around the Block
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Chaos need primaris type marines
also, power armor troops just die too quickly (not specific to Chaos)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 18:39:20
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Summoning needs to change, so stuff that arrives later in the game becomes cheaper, e.g. stick say 100 points in your reserve summoning pool but on T3 maybe its worth 125, maybe 150 on T4 say, maybe 200 on T5 - or some other scaling.
representing what you summon only gets a few turns, but also that stuff arriving at full power late game is powerful
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 18:52:08
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The power level thing is intended.
Power levels are an info which is not changed once it's been printed in the codex (usually, there have been minor exceptions).
That's cause if i am a new player and want to play a game, i don't need Chapter approved, FAQs or anything like that. With a battle primer and my codex i can play, and power levels never changing makes sure of that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 19:05:15
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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I think Chaos needs an 8.5 codex, not an FAQ. They mucked up too many things and a lot of things need a total rework. Just like it did back when they released 3.5 to fix the fact the 3.0 codex was bland as bland can be. Call it Codex: Black Crusade or Codex: Heretic Astartes or whatever, but it needs a straight up "Pretend this is 3rd edition again and redo the book because you fethed up the first one so badly" redesign.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:07:08
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 19:18:45
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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In keeping with the theme that GW has laid out:
All Chaos Models will now get +2 to wound all Grey Knights. This will stack with the Warlord Trait - DEATH TO THE SHINERS! - All Chaos Units within 48" of the Warlord get +2 to Wound all Greyknight units.
If any Greyknight model falls over while facing a Chaos Army, that unit is considered dead and must be removed from the table.
If a Greyknight unit has a successful attack against a Chaos unit, roll a D6. On any number, the Greyknight is slain.
Strategem - 1CP (Ward's Folley)
"If your opponent puts a Greyknight Unit on the field, that unit must be knocked over, and removed from the board."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:20:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 19:36:45
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker
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Storm shields, thunder hammers, drop pods, etc.
The chainaxe is a fine weapon, but otherwise we don't really gain anything at least in terms of armament for what the list has lost since the heresy for some reason.
We don't really trade survivability for damage at all. Our non-named non-daemon prince characters have somewhat decent auras, but that's it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:41:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/15 21:20:27
Subject: Re:Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Personally, I like the idea of the Chaos Space Marines being the weak stratagems faction where they make up for that weakness in the units themselves. It kinda makes sense as I don't see it being very easy to command these units although each individual is stronger. I think this idea also works well as historically, well as least recent historically (read: 6th, 7th), Chaos Space Marines really didn't have that good of synergy between units. I also kinda like the idea of weak strats/powerful indivually being kinda meta in that Chaos Space Marines reflect the older Imperium/rules before the addition of stratagems. I think it would be better for that power to be distributed throughout all units, but I could also see it being built in to the faction's HQ units too. The big problem with the idea is I kinda doubt GW could balance it well enough for it to work. Then there is the lesser issue of non-Chaos Space Marines players complaining that CMS units are too powerful since most players seem to make unit vs. unit comparisons rather than looking at it more holistically.
I think Chaos Space Marines (loyalist Space Marines too) should get the Primaris stat lines. I agree with the opinion that if feels like Primaris are what Space Marines should have been this edition, but Primaris exist relegating marines to what they have now which just doesn't work without dropping their points down so far as to not really feel like an elite faction. I am of the opinion the sooner Primaris and regular marines are largely a difference of models the better. The current attempt to try and separate the two has created a mess in a very crowed game mechanics design space. Once the Primaris/non-Primaris marine stat lines are joined, I think the easier it will be for GW to position space marines as a competing group of units.
I think Chaos Undivided CSM should have at least one more troop choice. Even after all this time, I miss the Black Legion being able to take Chosen as a troop choice. As a player who thinks that troop units should be the backbone for most armies, I really think that a minimum of 3 options should be available since at minimum 3 units of troops are generally required. Not to mention the Elite section just has too many options thrown it there (and this isn't just a CSM issue either).
I really do like the idea of Chaos Space Marine model kit that allows for regular Chaos Space Marines, Chosen and Havocs. Probably by just adding a CSM/Havoc Weapon Sprue to create a Chosen/Havoc kit would work well enough. They could even pull the same thing by adding a Khorne Berserker or a Noise Marine sprue, but honestly, I would much rather the World Eaters/Emporer's Children get their own codex like Thousand Sons and Death Guard. I am generally not for further dispersion of factions, but seeing that GW has already done it for half them, they might as well do it for all of them. Regardless, I do think chain axes should be a standard Chaos Space Marine weapon choice after seeing Shadowspear. It just feels right that CSM use chain axes far more than chain swords.
Update any unit still in finecast/resin/metal to plastic. Again, this isn't just a Chaos Space Marine hope, but all factions. I haven't seen a GW finecast model that I though looked better than modern board game miniatures. Games Workshop CAN have great looking miniatures, but as long as they continue to sell finecast/resin they also have some of the poorest looking stuff out there. I will go so far to say that even there metals look pretty bad as they artifacts of the time in which they were sculpted surpassed by pretty much everyone else today.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 02:18:49
Subject: Re:Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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To expand on thoughts I've had for years now I think there needs to be one of two (or both) design aesthetics for Chaos:
1) They should use a lot of gear ported from 30k to represent the fact that this is what they would have had during the Heresy. Now I don't mean stuff like jetbikes and other tech that was lost but I mean throw in some Volkite, phosphex, the special legion things you tend to see in 30k (e.g. Chainglaives for Night Lords), things like that.
2) Chaos needs to use corrupted/warp infused versions of loyalist weapons. The original design goal of Chaos when the Chaos Marines were initially fleshed out in 2nd edition (as stated in White Dwarf 199, August 1996) was to have them look like baroque, twisted versions of Space Marines. I think they should take that to the extreme. Chaos "Hereteks" and Warpsmiths have no compunction about not meddling with weapons (in fact they do it often). So Chaos needs to have that represented. Give "Baleflamers" instead of flamers, "Ectoplasma" instead of plasma, etc. Make the chaos wargear like the Marines themselves: Superficially they resemble the loyalist Astartes but then when you look closer, everything is corrupted and changed by the warp.
Imagine, not that I'm suggesting this as an actual rule if your regular Chaos Marines had the Inferno Boltgun like the Thousand Sons have, because while it looks like a boltgun, it's actually been profaned and corrupted by the daemons in the warp.
Between something along those lines and IMHO making Chosen the baseline Chaos marine (bringing back the old 3.5 Veteran rules) I think it would go a long way to make Chaos a more elite force than the loyalists (really, they should be closer to Primaris in stats as a base given that they live in what is literally Hell), with Cultists being the chaff they are now (which cultists should really be more like Traitor Guard IMHO with actual cultists similar in role to Conscripts). That would position chaos as a distinct army not just "worse marines with spikes" like they've been for ages now.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 12:51:18
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I agree, CSM should be ridiculously elite, but with the overall codex allowing a horde-ish built. Not Custodes level for pure CSM, but few power armored warmongers forming an elite speartip force or even fewer heretic Astartes herding their followers like chattel to drown the enemy in blood. (C)SM statlone isn't all that great, though, and we won't get a solution out of GW, so I just want as many good new models for Astartes and traitor humans as possible and as few dinobot kits stealing the sprue budget as possible.
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Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 13:00:48
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Binabik15 wrote:I agree, CSM should be ridiculously elite, but with the overall codex allowing a horde-ish built. Not Custodes level for pure CSM, but few power armored warmongers forming an elite speartip force or even fewer heretic Astartes herding their followers like chattel to drown the enemy in blood. (C) SM statlone isn't all that great, though, and we won't get a solution out of GW, so I just want as many good new models for Astartes and traitor humans as possible and as few dinobot kits stealing the sprue budget as possible.
A big problem is that Marines aren't represented as elite, and CSM should be more elite than that. It's why I have maintained for years GW needs to stop treating non-daemon Chaos as one faction, when it's really more:
1) Traitor Legions, who should be your more-elite-than-elite "Veterans of the Long War" who live in Hell itself. Like GK style elite with chattel being used as fodder. Daemon engines, warp-corrupted weaponry, etc. Might extend to your longterm Renegades like the Red Corsairs as Huron and Co are in the Maelstrom and have enough resources/alliances to justify this.
2) Chaos Renegades: This is tricky because *technically* this should be using Codex: Space Marines with <Heretic Astartes> and <Chaos> keywords, but this is like your recently turned Chapters. It has been and always is silly that a chapter that goes rogue just immediately drops all their modern gear and equipment when in the novels the opposite happens (they bring as much as they can with them).
3) Lost & the Damned: This is your Traitor Guard/beastmen/mutants, essentially FW Renegades & Heretics. Essentially this would be like the GSC codex but with beastmen/mutants and such instead of Genestealers.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 13:41:17
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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It would go a long way for Chaos Space Marines to have the following as Troop choices:
Beastmen
Cultists
Traitor Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War
Cultists would be the conscript version of Traitor Guard basically as suggested. Chaos Space Marines would still exist to represent relatively new converts/initiates to Chaos. Finally, stop titling upgrades and stratagems with Veterans of the Long War and just make them an actual unit. They could be separate from Chosen (though likely share the same stat line) with war gear options more inline with a Troop instead of an Elite choice. More than doubling the number of Troop choices, I think will go a long way in helping Chaos Space Marines develop more varied army lists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 14:10:08
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Well in 3.5 Chaos did have CSM and "Chaos Veterans" (basically Chosen) who got more options and everything. But really it's like i've said: GW needs to look back at just why the 3.5 dex was one of, if not the most lauded codex they've ever done (barring the obvious mistake in giving IW Oblits as troops) and replicate that. It's like they've been trying to UNDO it since 4th edition when they gutted it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 14:10:58
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 15:18:58
Subject: Re:Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
USA
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So, I do want Chaos to get it's revamp like it needs, but Lost and the Damned should 100% be it's own book. Or at the very least, runnable as it's own army.
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"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 15:20:06
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:It would go a long way for Chaos Space Marines to have the following as Troop choices:
Beastmen
Cultists
Traitor Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War
Cultists would be the conscript version of Traitor Guard basically as suggested. Chaos Space Marines would still exist to represent relatively new converts/initiates to Chaos. Finally, stop titling upgrades and stratagems with Veterans of the Long War and just make them an actual unit. They could be separate from Chosen (though likely share the same stat line) with war gear options more inline with a Troop instead of an Elite choice. More than doubling the number of Troop choices, I think will go a long way in helping Chaos Space Marines develop more varied army lists.
Half of these belong into a Lost and the damned army list / R&H army list and not to the traitor legions.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 18:32:22
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Half of these belong into a Lost and the damned army list / R&H army list and not to the traitor legions.
Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s
I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 18:32:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 18:37:14
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:
Half of these belong into a Lost and the damned army list / R&H army list and not to the traitor legions.
Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s
I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.
Yes and no.
No mostly because r&H exist allready and are in a worse state then csm.
I agree a nice book that includes all Chaos factions in depth would be better / nice.
But i feel like with the liking gw has taken to minidexes such a thing will not happen.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 19:20:22
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wayniac wrote:Well in 3.5 Chaos did have CSM and "Chaos Veterans" (basically Chosen) who got more options and everything.
But really it's like i've said: GW needs to look back at just why the 3.5 dex was one of, if not the most lauded codex they've ever done (barring the obvious mistake in giving IW Oblits as troops) and replicate that. It's like they've been trying to UNDO it since 4th edition when they gutted it.
I'm fairly confident in saying that, at the time, only Chaos players were lauding that overpowered pile of gak as a good book.
Looking back, it had some good thematic elements, but the mechanics were horrifyingly broken.
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2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling. - No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 19:41:46
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Dysartes wrote:Wayniac wrote:Well in 3.5 Chaos did have CSM and "Chaos Veterans" (basically Chosen) who got more options and everything.
But really it's like i've said: GW needs to look back at just why the 3.5 dex was one of, if not the most lauded codex they've ever done (barring the obvious mistake in giving IW Oblits as troops) and replicate that. It's like they've been trying to UNDO it since 4th edition when they gutted it.
I'm fairly confident in saying that, at the time, only Chaos players were lauding that overpowered pile of gak as a good book.
Looking back, it had some good thematic elements, but the mechanics were horrifyingly broken.
Thematically it was 1A. Mechanically, wellp my poor orks at the time got more then once completely rolled.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 20:05:59
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
USA
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Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:
Half of these belong into a Lost and the damned army list / R&H army list and not to the traitor legions.
Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s
I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.
Yes, but what about Lost and the Damned as a faction? You do understand they exist with HQs, elites and the such. Plauge Ogryns, Mutant Rabble, Berserker Ogryns ect. Lost and the Damned are just as much of a faction as IG are, plenty of groups with 0 Chaos Space Marines in them, while still being dedicated to the Dark Gods and accepting their gifts.
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"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 21:51:19
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Sir Heckington wrote:
Yes, but what about Lost and the Damned as a faction? You do understand they exist with HQs, elites and the such. Plauge Ogryns, Mutant Rabble, Berserker Ogryns ect. Lost and the Damned are just as much of a faction as IG are, plenty of groups with 0 Chaos Space Marines in them, while still being dedicated to the Dark Gods and accepting their gifts.
How much of that is Forge World stuff? Games Workshop generally doesn't put Forge World models into their codices.
Not to mention you already can make a CSM army without a single Chaos Marine in it. If makes you feel better, GW could drop the Astartes part of the codex name and just call it Heretics or Heretics of the Imperium and just group everything in. I am not beholden the the name on the front cover. Also, if it is largely an Imperial Guard army, sounds like the Astra Militarum codex just needs the same treatment as mentioned for space marines of a couple of pages on rules for traitorous guard.
Outside of Forge World stuff, which I don't know and don't care to know, all we are talking about is adding and subtracting keywords, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 21:55:14
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Sir Heckington wrote:
Yes, but what about Lost and the Damned as a faction? You do understand they exist with HQs, elites and the such. Plauge Ogryns, Mutant Rabble, Berserker Ogryns ect. Lost and the Damned are just as much of a faction as IG are, plenty of groups with 0 Chaos Space Marines in them, while still being dedicated to the Dark Gods and accepting their gifts.
How much of that is Forge World stuff? Games Workshop generally doesn't put Forge World models into their codices.
Not to mention you already can make a CSM army without a single Chaos Marine in it. If makes you feel better, GW could drop the Astartes part of the codex name and just call it Heretics or Heretics of the Imperium and just group everything in. I am not beholden the the name on the front cover. Also, if it is largely an Imperial Guard army, sounds like the Astra Militarum codex just needs the same treatment as mentioned for space marines of a couple of pages on rules for traitorous guard.
Outside of Forge World stuff, which I don't know and don't care to know, all we are talking about is adding and subtracting keywords, right?
Oh it's the narrow minded attitude. You realise that fw armies are equally official right?
And your sentiment shows through, so if you have no Clue about the army i reccomend you read up on it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 21:56:36
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/16 22:08:48
Subject: Big FAQ: Chaos Wish List
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
New Zealand
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IMHO Traitor Guard could just be a "regiment" entry in the Guard codex - with a blurb about renaming and chaosifying unit names etc. Renegade Space Marines - the more recent traitors - could also be a renegade "chapter" in the Space Marine codex.
With the changes above I would do two Chaos codex's; Codex:Chaos Space Marines for the Veterans of the Long War and well established traitors - like the red corsairs; and Codex: Lost and the Damned for the Cultists, Mutants and Beastmen etc.
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