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2019/02/27 19:04:06
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
and of course the new Primaris Jump Marines are based almost exactly on originalRT artwork like alot of recent models
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I honestly doubt we will see normal sized marines go anywhere within the next decade. GW has a lot invested in those molds and still sells plenty of kits. They also have to know how much their fans would revolt if they were to eliminate them. Now as molds break and more primaris things come out... maybe. but by then we will be in like 11th edition and even then i would expect retro rules for them where they are just not competitive with other armies but still narrative usable.
10000 points 7000 6000 5000 5000 2000
2019/02/27 19:14:39
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
7&8 are one of the worse looking armors marines can have, so that is one thing. Their bolters are not slightly bigger their are bigger then hvy bolters or psycannons, while having slightly upgraded stats of normal bolters. If there were realisticaly proportioned they would be smaller, or they would have different rules.
Your last point is one of the big ones for me, but again it's gameplay related: Almost nothing Primaris performs the way it looks in game.
A redemptor dread is like 1.5x the size of a regular dreadnought. If you look at them next to each other they don't seem like they should be anywhere NEAR the same league of creature, it's like the difference between a crisis suit and a Ghostkeel. But what's the difference? Like half a lascannon worth of damage. Defenses identical otherwise. Firepower nothing special.
Gravis armor is the other one. The size difference between a regular primaris marine and an aggressor is equivalent to the size difference between a marine and a terminator. What's a terminator to a marine? Invuln save, double the wounds, double the firepower, double the attacks, 2+ save. What's a gravis marine to a primaris marine? +1T.
The amount of times I've played vs primaris marines and stuff just gets hosed off the table while I blink and go "Wait...really? That's all they had to them?" is amazing.
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
The regular primaris marines are fine. as are the hellblasters. If you started from there, and that was the new sculpt for bolter marine and plasma gun marine, you'd be sitting pretty, and I'd be loving it.
The rest, design-wise, they completely F'ed up.
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Flying giant clownshoe is the perfect example of "too many weapons, nothing to focus on." They're just bristling out of the thing with no rhyme or reason, and it's very clear that all the guns were added in because they were just desperate to make it an all-rounder vehicle that can be added to anyone's collection and will never be "bad" because it's so unspecialized. There is a reason that so many GW models incorporate sponsons rather than turrets, despite them being an outdated concept in warfare: Design-wise, it allows you to separate the weaponry at a glance, and affords you an easy way to show that a vehicle has a pair of a particular type of gun, because we see the symmetry. The repulsive's turret area is an absolute clusterfeth, and has WAY too much going on, versus the sides of the vehicle which are much more flat and bare. Again, there's no symmetry, and again, it doesn't look intentional, just sloppy.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
That is why I don't like primaris units aesthetically. It isn't just blind hate of primaris fluff, and I hope that is enough "explaining why" to satisfy you, or at least make you stop claiming everyone has no reasons.
Complaining for the sake of complaining! Here we go...
1. What's too many weapons on Aggressors? Not much different to anything else having too many weapons like a Land Raider or Terminators with CML or Ironclad Dreads. The frag launchers are pretty subtle for anything else in the game, and the Flamers aren't being combined with another weapon.
So seriously, what's too many weapons?
Also of course the torso seems big. Aggressors are basically weapons platforms, and fit the slight impracticality that comes from being in the 40k universe. Making them sleek would be stupid silly. Next.
2. Complaining about skull masks on a terror unit is pretty silly, especially since skulls are a focal point of design choices in 40k already. If we can't complain about Chaplains doing this (THEY'RE SPIRITUAL!!!), you can't complain about a terror unit using it. Also lopsided shoulder pads are prominent already. Fire Warriors are the easiest example of that.
3. You don't have the build the Dread with the extra armor. The website even shows examples of that. You also already kinda conceded by pointing out it's not supposed to be anthropomorphic anyway.
All the Dishwasher Dreads are silly anyway compared to what Contemptors have to offer us.
4. Yeah I'll concede on the Repulsor.
5. I have no idea what you're talking about with the posting on the Inceptors. They all look like they're about to land or in the middle of the first leap.
You can also pose them at a different angle if that bothers you.
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
But you aren't describing what, exactly, is out of scale once you remove MiniMarines out of the equation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 19:16:04
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/27 19:39:44
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
I think it means "doesn't perform well on the tabletop for the points", and frankly they don't.
That's a great article. Thank you for the chuckle.
I don't dislike new things just because they're new and not 'the thing I know.' I like most of the new releases GW puts out, whether they're revived old concepts or completely new ones, and I'm not sure how much I have to make it clear that I can find something to like about almost literally every faction in the entire game before people will stop pulling out the old ad hominem byline of "you're just a complainy nostalgia complainer!"
I dislike the aesthetics of the units I just went through because their aesthetics are bad. There are univerally understood standards of design that the specialist primaris units break, or where they do follow standards of design they follow the wrong one and give off unintended impressions.
This is not a unit correctly designed to read like it's "Leaping" unless the leap you're talking about is kind of a lazy jumping jack. They don't work for the same reason this model doesn't work.
The focus of the wulfen is forward, and slightly backwards. He is supposed to be "pouncing forward" but the posing makes so sense for that, which is why your brain first leaps to "He looks like he's doing the karate crane stance" and then "oh god he's so stupid." You CAN achieve the effect you want with a model like that, and you can do it with almost exactly the same pose, just slightly different.
And as for the dreadnought, it doesn't matter if something is a completely non-anthropomorphic object, humans will anthropomorphize it if you give us ANY features to work off of. We anthropomorphize cars, animals, phones, everything. The redemptor has arms and legs, and that gives it proportion. And the proportion of this is a whole lot closer to the proportion of this than this.
There is a reason people reject the aesthetics of units like the centurion, dreadknight, repulsor, and wulfen, and a reason they don't seem to reject the aesthetics of other new releases like genestealer cult, speed freek stuff, and the new rogue traders and other new models that have been getting rave reviews. Dismissing them as "Complaining for the sake of complaining" when you first opened with "oh they just don't have a reason they're just blindly hating just 'cause" is ridiculous. You asked for reasoning. I provided it.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/27 19:44:40
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
7&8 are one of the worse looking armors marines can have, so that is one thing. Their bolters are not slightly bigger their are bigger then hvy bolters or psycannons, while having slightly upgraded stats of normal bolters. If there were realisticaly proportioned they would be smaller, or they would have different rules.
Your last point is one of the big ones for me, but again it's gameplay related: Almost nothing Primaris performs the way it looks in game.
A redemptor dread is like 1.5x the size of a regular dreadnought. If you look at them next to each other they don't seem like they should be anywhere NEAR the same league of creature, it's like the difference between a crisis suit and a Ghostkeel. But what's the difference? Like half a lascannon worth of damage. Defenses identical otherwise. Firepower nothing special.
Gravis armor is the other one. The size difference between a regular primaris marine and an aggressor is equivalent to the size difference between a marine and a terminator. What's a terminator to a marine? Invuln save, double the wounds, double the firepower, double the attacks, 2+ save. What's a gravis marine to a primaris marine? +1T.
The amount of times I've played vs primaris marines and stuff just gets hosed off the table while I blink and go "Wait...really? That's all they had to them?" is amazing.
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
The regular primaris marines are fine. as are the hellblasters. If you started from there, and that was the new sculpt for bolter marine and plasma gun marine, you'd be sitting pretty, and I'd be loving it.
The rest, design-wise, they completely F'ed up.
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Flying giant clownshoe is the perfect example of "too many weapons, nothing to focus on." They're just bristling out of the thing with no rhyme or reason, and it's very clear that all the guns were added in because they were just desperate to make it an all-rounder vehicle that can be added to anyone's collection and will never be "bad" because it's so unspecialized. There is a reason that so many GW models incorporate sponsons rather than turrets, despite them being an outdated concept in warfare: Design-wise, it allows you to separate the weaponry at a glance, and affords you an easy way to show that a vehicle has a pair of a particular type of gun, because we see the symmetry. The repulsive's turret area is an absolute clusterfeth, and has WAY too much going on, versus the sides of the vehicle which are much more flat and bare. Again, there's no symmetry, and again, it doesn't look intentional, just sloppy.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
That is why I don't like primaris units aesthetically. It isn't just blind hate of primaris fluff, and I hope that is enough "explaining why" to satisfy you, or at least make you stop claiming everyone has no reasons.
Complaining for the sake of complaining! Here we go...
1. What's too many weapons on Aggressors? Not much different to anything else having too many weapons like a Land Raider or Terminators with CML or Ironclad Dreads. The frag launchers are pretty subtle for anything else in the game, and the Flamers aren't being combined with another weapon.
So seriously, what's too many weapons?
Also of course the torso seems big. Aggressors are basically weapons platforms, and fit the slight impracticality that comes from being in the 40k universe. Making them sleek would be stupid silly. Next.
2. Complaining about skull masks on a terror unit is pretty silly, especially since skulls are a focal point of design choices in 40k already. If we can't complain about Chaplains doing this (THEY'RE SPIRITUAL!!!), you can't complain about a terror unit using it. Also lopsided shoulder pads are prominent already. Fire Warriors are the easiest example of that.
3. You don't have the build the Dread with the extra armor. The website even shows examples of that. You also already kinda conceded by pointing out it's not supposed to be anthropomorphic anyway.
All the Dishwasher Dreads are silly anyway compared to what Contemptors have to offer us.
4. Yeah I'll concede on the Repulsor.
5. I have no idea what you're talking about with the posting on the Inceptors. They all look like they're about to land or in the middle of the first leap.
You can also pose them at a different angle if that bothers you.
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
But you aren't describing what, exactly, is out of scale once you remove MiniMarines out of the equation.
Almost everything else. I don't like the way Primaris look next to Eldar or Tyranid Warrions either, for example. Imo if the plastic guard weren't so chunky there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: and of course the new Primaris Jump Marines are based almost exactly on originalRT artwork like alot of recent models
Sort of. The older artwork also looks like an assault marine dual-wielding bolt pistols so there's not really any clarity there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 19:46:48
Stupid spaceballs trooper cadian plastics. Ruining everything for everybody since 1905 (or whenever those models came out, I don't remember).
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/27 20:03:30
Subject: Re:Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
I don't see Agressors as being terminator equivilants myself, I see them as being more centurion equivilants. slimmed down centurions with an anti infantry focus, in that light they're not bad, ignoring the stats and rules, I think they're definatly apperance wise an improvement over centurions.I do agree the power fists are unnesscary though.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
40k has already been more alike a ten year old boys fancyful imagination then whats realistic. This is a setting where one of the principal weapons of mankind is a CHAINSWORD. Reivers are supposed to be terror troops and the skull motif certainly sends that message. as for the lopsided shoulder bad I don't get that eaither, but perhaps the vanguard marines will make the reasoning a little more clear. as it's obvious that the Phobos armor isn't unique to reivers.. Taking a GUESS, it's a weight savings approuch, with the "away from the enemy" pad, being lighter then the "towards the enemy" pad.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
This is easily explained by their not being jump troops. Their airborne troops. they're dropped out of a dropship at high altitude and basicly fly around the battlefield, (you see this early on in hte novel dark imperium)
thus the posing id going to be differant from jump troops. Jump troops are shown ASCENDING, the droptroops are shown DESCENDING. the body language of the minis makes this VERY clear.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/02/27 20:09:14
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
They're definitely an improvement on centurions, which may be the single worst proportioned model GW has ever put out. I'm still not a fan. A lot of the reason why the "elephant" style terminators need that elongated muzzle-face is to make sure their head doesn't get lost in the bulk of the armor, which aggressors fail at (there's a reason the studio painter gave them bright red helmets in a lot of their shots to pump up the contrast). Combine that with there being a much subtler mouthpiece on MkX armor and there's a recognition problem. Looking at pictures online, leaving the rocket pack off the back of them MASSIVELY improves them in my opinion and makes them look a lot less topheavy, though I still don't like the random powerfists. Here, aim this gun while wearing boxing gloves.
Re: reivers.
So many units use the skull motif in 40k that it doesn't really convey anything, other than "this is a 40k model, see, it's got skulls on." As was pointed out above, skull masks are already a thing for a space marine unit - the chaplain. It's like calling your unit "Death-something" in 40k: it's ceased to be an "oh no, not the DEATH guys, that's scary" and become a comedic meme because of just how many factions use that word. When we have leapers stalkers marks guard korps watch...just come up with another idea.
It looked weird and out of place in the setting when they went for it with Militarium Tempestorius (tm). It looks weird and out of place here.
Re: Inceptors
A model that's supposed to be descending and shooting down looks a lot less believable when posed on a base 1/4" off the ground than a model that's supposed to be ascending and shooting up. See the problems with the new Sanguinius model, forever doomed to look like he just nailed himself in the golden codpiece with a pointy rock.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/27 20:26:49
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Classic space marines and Eldar are some of, if not THE worst models GW makes. Their posing and proportions are horrendous. Some people here call it “classic”. I call it ugly. Why do terminators have heads that stick out from their chests? Why do space marines have hips attached directly to their ribs?
Some of the Primaris kits have bad poses as well, such as the dark Imperium inceptors and the gravis captain, but at least the proportion is good.
Reivers, yeah, I don’t like their helmets either but just swap them ffs. No more ridiculous than most chaplain models.
The repulsor is easily built as a sleek armed transport. Just leave off the antenna and strapped on cargo and leave off the tech marine gunner. Crazy how many people complain about this who haven’t built one, because then they’d know this.
2019/02/27 20:49:21
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Quasistellar wrote: Classic space marines and Eldar are some of, if not THE worst models GW makes. Their posing and proportions are horrendous. Some people here call it “classic”. I call it ugly. Why do terminators have heads that stick out from their chests? Why do space marines have hips attached directly to their ribs?
Because that's what looks good at 2-3 feet away, on the tabletop as you're playing. The GW classic proportions are specifically stylized to communicate model character clearly at a distance. The design of the model is built to the gameplay, and not to the fact that everyone has a macro-lens in their pocket. That technology might be the most influential change on model proportion over the years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 20:50:15
I actually like what the scotsman wrote a lot. Very good break down, it is essentially how i feel as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quasistellar wrote: Classic space marines and Eldar are some of, if not THE worst models GW makes. Their posing and proportions are horrendous. Some people here call it “classic”. I call it ugly. Why do terminators have heads that stick out from their chests? Why do space marines have hips attached directly to their ribs?
Some of the Primaris kits have bad poses as well, such as the dark Imperium inceptors and the gravis captain, but at least the proportion is good.
Reivers, yeah, I don’t like their helmets either but just swap them ffs. No more ridiculous than most chaplain models.
The repulsor is easily built as a sleek armed transport. Just leave off the antenna and strapped on cargo and leave off the tech marine gunner. Crazy how many people complain about this who haven’t built one, because then they’d know this.
What? I seriously disagree with this. The proportion of dark eldar kabalite warriors is amazing. They look like people. Primaris models make no sense when standing next to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 21:13:11
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2019/02/27 21:36:07
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
I think he meant eldar as in craft world. Which are absolutely abysmal.
Classic marines have their posing issues, but modern classic marine sculpts like deathwatch and the newer csm stuff do that far far better.
Tbh the new chaos stuff is kind of the only reason I'm doubting the whole "classic marines ate getting squatted" narrative.
Why would they be putting out a box that is essentially primaris vs classic marines (chaos admittedly, but with classic marine armaments and aesthetic forms) if they're squatting the whole marine line?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/27 21:41:07
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can kitbash the Captains with realistic proportions. "Captain" entry and make a better model.
WYSIWYG says otherwise. A Primaris Captain cannot equip a thunder hammer per game rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/27 21:42:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2019/02/27 21:50:07
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Tbh the new chaos stuff is kind of the only reason I'm doubting the whole "classic marines ate getting squatted" narrative.
Why would they be putting out a box that is essentially primaris vs classic marines (chaos admittedly, but with classic marine armaments and aesthetic forms) if they're squatting the whole marine line?
Agree. Are we really going to enter an era where the good guy marines are just bigger and badder than the bad guy marines? That would be so dumb.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can kitbash the Captains with realistic proportions. "Captain" entry and make a better model.
WYSIWYG says otherwise. A Primaris Captain cannot equip a thunder hammer per game rules.
Unfortunately true. Fortunately nothing is stopping one from representing a standard captain with a thunder hammer with a primaris model with a thunder hammer.
Tbh the new chaos stuff is kind of the only reason I'm doubting the whole "classic marines ate getting squatted" narrative.
Why would they be putting out a box that is essentially primaris vs classic marines (chaos admittedly, but with classic marine armaments and aesthetic forms) if they're squatting the whole marine line?
Agree. Are we really going to enter an era where the good guy marines are just bigger and badder than the bad guy marines? That would be so dumb.
Classic CSM are going away too. Death Guard have unique marines. Thousand Sons have unique marines. Expect the legacy legions to also get squatted in time, as well. At least, that's my thought.
Old marines are going away. It's just happening in loyalist land first.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2019/02/27 23:04:38
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
7&8 are one of the worse looking armors marines can have, so that is one thing. Their bolters are not slightly bigger their are bigger then hvy bolters or psycannons, while having slightly upgraded stats of normal bolters. If there were realisticaly proportioned they would be smaller, or they would have different rules.
Your last point is one of the big ones for me, but again it's gameplay related: Almost nothing Primaris performs the way it looks in game.
A redemptor dread is like 1.5x the size of a regular dreadnought. If you look at them next to each other they don't seem like they should be anywhere NEAR the same league of creature, it's like the difference between a crisis suit and a Ghostkeel. But what's the difference? Like half a lascannon worth of damage. Defenses identical otherwise. Firepower nothing special.
Gravis armor is the other one. The size difference between a regular primaris marine and an aggressor is equivalent to the size difference between a marine and a terminator. What's a terminator to a marine? Invuln save, double the wounds, double the firepower, double the attacks, 2+ save. What's a gravis marine to a primaris marine? +1T.
The amount of times I've played vs primaris marines and stuff just gets hosed off the table while I blink and go "Wait...really? That's all they had to them?" is amazing.
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
The regular primaris marines are fine. as are the hellblasters. If you started from there, and that was the new sculpt for bolter marine and plasma gun marine, you'd be sitting pretty, and I'd be loving it.
The rest, design-wise, they completely F'ed up.
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Flying giant clownshoe is the perfect example of "too many weapons, nothing to focus on." They're just bristling out of the thing with no rhyme or reason, and it's very clear that all the guns were added in because they were just desperate to make it an all-rounder vehicle that can be added to anyone's collection and will never be "bad" because it's so unspecialized. There is a reason that so many GW models incorporate sponsons rather than turrets, despite them being an outdated concept in warfare: Design-wise, it allows you to separate the weaponry at a glance, and affords you an easy way to show that a vehicle has a pair of a particular type of gun, because we see the symmetry. The repulsive's turret area is an absolute clusterfeth, and has WAY too much going on, versus the sides of the vehicle which are much more flat and bare. Again, there's no symmetry, and again, it doesn't look intentional, just sloppy.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
That is why I don't like primaris units aesthetically. It isn't just blind hate of primaris fluff, and I hope that is enough "explaining why" to satisfy you, or at least make you stop claiming everyone has no reasons.
Complaining for the sake of complaining! Here we go...
1. What's too many weapons on Aggressors? Not much different to anything else having too many weapons like a Land Raider or Terminators with CML or Ironclad Dreads. The frag launchers are pretty subtle for anything else in the game, and the Flamers aren't being combined with another weapon.
So seriously, what's too many weapons?
Also of course the torso seems big. Aggressors are basically weapons platforms, and fit the slight impracticality that comes from being in the 40k universe. Making them sleek would be stupid silly. Next.
2. Complaining about skull masks on a terror unit is pretty silly, especially since skulls are a focal point of design choices in 40k already. If we can't complain about Chaplains doing this (THEY'RE SPIRITUAL!!!), you can't complain about a terror unit using it. Also lopsided shoulder pads are prominent already. Fire Warriors are the easiest example of that.
3. You don't have the build the Dread with the extra armor. The website even shows examples of that. You also already kinda conceded by pointing out it's not supposed to be anthropomorphic anyway.
All the Dishwasher Dreads are silly anyway compared to what Contemptors have to offer us.
4. Yeah I'll concede on the Repulsor.
5. I have no idea what you're talking about with the posting on the Inceptors. They all look like they're about to land or in the middle of the first leap.
You can also pose them at a different angle if that bothers you.
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
But you aren't describing what, exactly, is out of scale once you remove MiniMarines out of the equation.
Almost everything else. I don't like the way Primaris look next to Eldar or Tyranid Warrions either, for example. Imo if the plastic guard weren't so chunky there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: and of course the new Primaris Jump Marines are based almost exactly on originalRT artwork like alot of recent models
Sort of. The older artwork also looks like an assault marine dual-wielding bolt pistols so there's not really any clarity there.
Found this upon the internet. What's off and that you don't like?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/27 23:11:25
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can kitbash the Captains with realistic proportions. "Captain" entry and make a better model.
WYSIWYG says otherwise. A Primaris Captain cannot equip a thunder hammer per game rules.
Unfortunately true. Fortunately nothing is stopping one from representing a standard captain with a thunder hammer with a primaris model with a thunder hammer.
Wait, you can actualy do that? So let say someone could use a model from one army as another model from the same or other army? I thought that you have to have the specific gear, bases and the silhouette of the original model, because otherwise you would be cheating on LoS.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/02/27 23:15:24
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can kitbash the Captains with realistic proportions. "Captain" entry and make a better model.
WYSIWYG says otherwise. A Primaris Captain cannot equip a thunder hammer per game rules.
Unfortunately true. Fortunately nothing is stopping one from representing a standard captain with a thunder hammer with a primaris model with a thunder hammer.
Wait, you can actualy do that? So let say someone could use a model from one army as another model from the same or other army? I thought that you have to have the specific gear, bases and the silhouette of the original model, because otherwise you would be cheating on LoS.
Yeah it's called conversions and they've been done for a VERY long time.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/27 23:15:55
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Hmm, while I fully appreciate everyone has a right to their opinion, and whilst I personally like primaris, and fully appreciate you are entitled not to like them (for example, I like reivers. I love the 'geared up' look they have). The only issue I have with what you say about the dread is 'oh, it's fat'. No mate, it's not fat, obese, or pot-bellied. It's Eddie Hall. Look at 'the worlds strongest man' competitions. Or Olympic weight lifters. Or the likes of Hafthor Bjornsson. Real, 'uge strength is often from a body type that is more thick around the waist, rather than skinny with 'uge arms. Some of those guys are beastly huge. And That's what I see when I see the dread. Not some fatty.
Other than that, To me, aggressors are fantastic, inceptors are brilliant, reivers are sublime and intercessors are simply perfect, and far better than anything from the oldstartes range. So, for what it's worth, I will politely disagree with you scotsman on this, but will genuinely respect your opinion on this.
Cheers!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 23:21:10
2019/02/27 23:42:06
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
fraser1191 wrote: What's the official height for Primaris marines? With ideally a reference
Fluff-wise? I don't think it has ever been stated.
Which is the piece I'm missing.
So I measured a marine from the dark Imperium, (the most upright one walking and aiming) using a vernier he was 1.5225". Upfront I'll also state this is a painted and finished model that I'm want to get too rough with, but when I build my other intercessors I'll try and get more exact measurements.
Using my unbuilt intercessors chest is 0.475"
Pointing arm from armpit to tip .630" (which seems really off)
Two arms and a chest equals 1.735 which is well above the original measurement. So Primaris marines wing span is too long.
A tempestus scion with a wide stance is 1.221", provided he's 6' tall a Primaris marine stands at 7.38 feet(88.56")
So in summary Primaris ARE true scale marines, not to scale Primaris marines. Granted their arms are a lot longer. But it seems like most other things are to proportion. Even the feet-forearm are close if you factor in the fact that they're encased in armour.
Might do the classics later
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 23:42:55
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