Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2019/02/27 23:52:23
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Why not just buy the Primaris instead? They look much better and are guaranteed to have a full rule support for years to come.
Completely agree
I completely disagree. The Intercessors look great and the rest is just awful. The Scouts ripped off the Night Lords, Jump pack troops look like Baron Harkonnen, Dreadnought is oversized and has a beer belly and the Repulsor is just ugly and has sales driven transport rules. In a nutshell, Primaris SUCK!
2019/02/28 00:03:39
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can kitbash the Captains with realistic proportions. "Captain" entry and make a better model.
WYSIWYG says otherwise. A Primaris Captain cannot equip a thunder hammer per game rules.
Unfortunately true. Fortunately nothing is stopping one from representing a standard captain with a thunder hammer with a primaris model with a thunder hammer.
Wait, you can actualy do that? So let say someone could use a model from one army as another model from the same or other army? I thought that you have to have the specific gear, bases and the silhouette of the original model, because otherwise you would be cheating on LoS.
Yes, in general. The rule of thumb is that it should be something reasonable.
Now where you play & who you play with might have a strong influence on how far you can push this.
2019/02/28 00:04:08
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Yep, they are scaled to be about seven and half feet tall, which is good size for Space Marines.
We're supposed to assume that a Catachan guardsman is just as strong as an 8 foot tall genetically engineered super soldier. Size matters when determining strength. Primaris are nonsense in size.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2019/02/28 00:07:41
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Yep, they are scaled to be about seven and half feet tall, which is good size for Space Marines.
We're supposed to assume that a Catachan guardsman is just as strong as an 8 foot tall genetically engineered super soldier. Size matters when determining strength. Primaris are nonsense in size.
How are they nonsense in size when the models are finally scaled to the size the marines are in the fluff?
Karol wrote: Wait, you can actualy do that? So let say someone could use a model from one army as another model from the same or other army? I thought that you have to have the specific gear, bases and the silhouette of the original model, because otherwise you would be cheating on LoS.
Depends on how strong your local area is about WYSIWYG, I suppose. However, that doesn't change my argument really. I haven't really been given a need to buy a Primaris Captain when I can already buy the AWESOME non-primaris Blood Angels minis already out there by the arguments here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 00:10:25
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2019/02/28 00:23:58
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
7&8 are one of the worse looking armors marines can have, so that is one thing. Their bolters are not slightly bigger their are bigger then hvy bolters or psycannons, while having slightly upgraded stats of normal bolters. If there were realisticaly proportioned they would be smaller, or they would have different rules.
Your last point is one of the big ones for me, but again it's gameplay related: Almost nothing Primaris performs the way it looks in game.
A redemptor dread is like 1.5x the size of a regular dreadnought. If you look at them next to each other they don't seem like they should be anywhere NEAR the same league of creature, it's like the difference between a crisis suit and a Ghostkeel. But what's the difference? Like half a lascannon worth of damage. Defenses identical otherwise. Firepower nothing special.
Gravis armor is the other one. The size difference between a regular primaris marine and an aggressor is equivalent to the size difference between a marine and a terminator. What's a terminator to a marine? Invuln save, double the wounds, double the firepower, double the attacks, 2+ save. What's a gravis marine to a primaris marine? +1T.
The amount of times I've played vs primaris marines and stuff just gets hosed off the table while I blink and go "Wait...really? That's all they had to them?" is amazing.
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
The regular primaris marines are fine. as are the hellblasters. If you started from there, and that was the new sculpt for bolter marine and plasma gun marine, you'd be sitting pretty, and I'd be loving it.
The rest, design-wise, they completely F'ed up.
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Flying giant clownshoe is the perfect example of "too many weapons, nothing to focus on." They're just bristling out of the thing with no rhyme or reason, and it's very clear that all the guns were added in because they were just desperate to make it an all-rounder vehicle that can be added to anyone's collection and will never be "bad" because it's so unspecialized. There is a reason that so many GW models incorporate sponsons rather than turrets, despite them being an outdated concept in warfare: Design-wise, it allows you to separate the weaponry at a glance, and affords you an easy way to show that a vehicle has a pair of a particular type of gun, because we see the symmetry. The repulsive's turret area is an absolute clusterfeth, and has WAY too much going on, versus the sides of the vehicle which are much more flat and bare. Again, there's no symmetry, and again, it doesn't look intentional, just sloppy.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
That is why I don't like primaris units aesthetically. It isn't just blind hate of primaris fluff, and I hope that is enough "explaining why" to satisfy you, or at least make you stop claiming everyone has no reasons.
Complaining for the sake of complaining! Here we go...
1. What's too many weapons on Aggressors? Not much different to anything else having too many weapons like a Land Raider or Terminators with CML or Ironclad Dreads. The frag launchers are pretty subtle for anything else in the game, and the Flamers aren't being combined with another weapon.
So seriously, what's too many weapons?
Also of course the torso seems big. Aggressors are basically weapons platforms, and fit the slight impracticality that comes from being in the 40k universe. Making them sleek would be stupid silly. Next.
2. Complaining about skull masks on a terror unit is pretty silly, especially since skulls are a focal point of design choices in 40k already. If we can't complain about Chaplains doing this (THEY'RE SPIRITUAL!!!), you can't complain about a terror unit using it. Also lopsided shoulder pads are prominent already. Fire Warriors are the easiest example of that.
3. You don't have the build the Dread with the extra armor. The website even shows examples of that. You also already kinda conceded by pointing out it's not supposed to be anthropomorphic anyway.
All the Dishwasher Dreads are silly anyway compared to what Contemptors have to offer us.
4. Yeah I'll concede on the Repulsor.
5. I have no idea what you're talking about with the posting on the Inceptors. They all look like they're about to land or in the middle of the first leap.
You can also pose them at a different angle if that bothers you.
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
But you aren't describing what, exactly, is out of scale once you remove MiniMarines out of the equation.
Almost everything else. I don't like the way Primaris look next to Eldar or Tyranid Warrions either, for example. Imo if the plastic guard weren't so chunky there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: and of course the new Primaris Jump Marines are based almost exactly on originalRT artwork like alot of recent models
Sort of. The older artwork also looks like an assault marine dual-wielding bolt pistols so there's not really any clarity there.
Found this upon the internet. What's off and that you don't like?
Excellent find. That allows us to do a side-by-side and will hopefully really illustrate my side of this.
You can scoff at the old miniatures, but this is the size comparison I prefer. Tyranid Warriors are better as huge monsters, and marines are better as stalwart but outclassed defenders of the Imperium in comparison. Imo it gives the xenos threat more gravitas, and makes the marine more badass for fighting it. It's just more effin grimdark. I find the classic scale relationship infinitely more compelling from an atmospheric perspective.
You can scoff at the old miniatures, but this is the size comparison I prefer. Tyranid Warriors are better as huge monsters, and marines are better as stalwart but outclassed defenders of the Imperium in comparison. Imo it gives the xenos threat more gravitas, and makes the marine more badass for fighting it. It's just more effin grimdark. I find the classic scale relationship infinitely more compelling from an atmospheric perspective.
Thing is, when those models were made, the Tyranid Warriors were amongst the biggest models in the game. Now this is not even remotely true. So if you want Primaris Marines to face giant hulking alien bugs that completely dwarf them, that certainly can be arranged!
You can scoff at the old miniatures, but this is the size comparison I prefer. Tyranid Warriors are better as huge monsters, and marines are better as stalwart but outclassed defenders of the Imperium in comparison. Imo it gives the xenos threat more gravitas, and makes the marine more badass for fighting it. It's just more effin grimdark. I find the classic scale relationship infinitely more compelling from an atmospheric perspective.
Thing is, when those models were made, the Tyranid Warriors were amongst the biggest models in the game. Now this is not even remotely true. So if you want Primaris Marines to face giant hulking alien bugs that completely dwarf them, that certainly can be arranged!
I had a Reaver Titan in 2nd Ed.
The issue isn't "possible scale of models", the issue is the. . . how do I say it. . . the comparison of analogues between races. You don't scale your troops off the other factions vehicles. Tyranid Warrios are the "marines" of the Tyranids. Guardsmen personify Guard, Sisters personify Sisters, Aspect Warriors personify Eldar, IMO Tyranid Warriors personify Tyranids, and the traditional scale makes the faction as a whole seem more of a threat since their anthrapamorphic representation on the table is that much larger than the models of other races. It diminishes other factions to keep inflating marines.
This goes along with why I didn't like the nerfing of Necron Warriors and Immortals from their original codex to the 5th ed. one. Same principle. It's like it's impossible for people to accept basic troops that outclass marines, because of novels or whatever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 00:59:49
Crimson wrote: Why not just buy the Primaris instead? They look much better and are guaranteed to have a full rule support for years to come.
Completely agree
I completely disagree. The Intercessors look great and the rest is just awful. The Scouts ripped off the Night Lords, Jump pack troops look like Baron Harkonnen, Dreadnought is oversized and has a beer belly and the Repulsor is just ugly and has sales driven transport rules. In a nutshell, Primaris SUCK!
Your opinion, sure. Beauty in the eye of beholder etc
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |
2019/02/28 01:04:11
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Karol wrote: Maybe if your insane. It is clear that they are going to be removing normal power armor units at some point, they are bad now. What if they never get to be good between now, and the point when GW decides to remove them totaly. Better spend money on something fun and useful.
By that logic you should be buying IG and IK instead, Primaris are also bad now. They really need embedded heavy weapon support and the only way to get that is to to play DW where old Marines are blatently superior. And even then DW is still inferior to IG/IK soup and is likely to remain so.
If I could get the money I would. If you think primaris are bad then you dont know what bad means.
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
7&8 are one of the worse looking armors marines can have, so that is one thing. Their bolters are not slightly bigger their are bigger then hvy bolters or psycannons, while having slightly upgraded stats of normal bolters. If there were realisticaly proportioned they would be smaller, or they would have different rules.
Your last point is one of the big ones for me, but again it's gameplay related: Almost nothing Primaris performs the way it looks in game.
A redemptor dread is like 1.5x the size of a regular dreadnought. If you look at them next to each other they don't seem like they should be anywhere NEAR the same league of creature, it's like the difference between a crisis suit and a Ghostkeel. But what's the difference? Like half a lascannon worth of damage. Defenses identical otherwise. Firepower nothing special.
Gravis armor is the other one. The size difference between a regular primaris marine and an aggressor is equivalent to the size difference between a marine and a terminator. What's a terminator to a marine? Invuln save, double the wounds, double the firepower, double the attacks, 2+ save. What's a gravis marine to a primaris marine? +1T.
The amount of times I've played vs primaris marines and stuff just gets hosed off the table while I blink and go "Wait...really? That's all they had to them?" is amazing.
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
The regular primaris marines are fine. as are the hellblasters. If you started from there, and that was the new sculpt for bolter marine and plasma gun marine, you'd be sitting pretty, and I'd be loving it.
The rest, design-wise, they completely F'ed up.
The Aggressors got hosed by GW trying to make Terminators into something brand-identifiable, so they had to stick with the tiny marine head and legs and they just boofed up the torso to ridiculous levels. They have a lesser version of Centurion syndrome, with a side helping of Primaris "too many weapons, don't know what is the focal point of the model" which is a theme throughout.
Reivers have a vomit-inducing Call of Duty modern warfare commando aesthetic, where they look specifically like what a ten year old would draw when you asked him to draw a commando, and not like what an actual commando might look like. Replacing the role of Scouts with proper power armored marines is something they could do successfully (And probably did do successfully with the great looking vanguard marines) but Reivers ain't it. The skull masks are beyond stupid and the lopsided shoulderpad shtick makes zero sense here. The one thing I do respect on reivers is the great posing they pulled off, it's tough to make good looking close combat poses and they did that quite well, it's just too bad they didn't realize the base design was so awful.
Potbelly dreadnought is potbelly dreadnought. When you shift the proportion from the "shoulders" to the center of the bottom, it reads as obese, even though it's a non-anatomical robot. there's a reason practically everyone saw the redemptor and immediately thought "oh, it's fat." You're programmed to see that body shape and proportion as abnormally fat, even on non-humans where that might be the average/"intended" shape, like a walrus or panda.
Flying giant clownshoe is the perfect example of "too many weapons, nothing to focus on." They're just bristling out of the thing with no rhyme or reason, and it's very clear that all the guns were added in because they were just desperate to make it an all-rounder vehicle that can be added to anyone's collection and will never be "bad" because it's so unspecialized. There is a reason that so many GW models incorporate sponsons rather than turrets, despite them being an outdated concept in warfare: Design-wise, it allows you to separate the weaponry at a glance, and affords you an easy way to show that a vehicle has a pair of a particular type of gun, because we see the symmetry. The repulsive's turret area is an absolute clusterfeth, and has WAY too much going on, versus the sides of the vehicle which are much more flat and bare. Again, there's no symmetry, and again, it doesn't look intentional, just sloppy.
The jump troops have a few problems. First for me is the "old eldar jetbiker issue" where you have a unit that's supposedly fast and dynamic, but is posed to read as chilled out and relaxed. The way they've been posed in mostly spreadeagled positions makes them look like they're leaning back and relaxing, and the focus on the model is back and down, rather than forward and up like the current assault marines. The pose of an inceptor holding his gun is like an overweight 45 year old flopping down on the couch and holding out the TV remote, and their chunky proportions don't do anything to help that. Add to that that their guns are enormously stubby and oversized, and the design of their new flying base draws the eye and is distracting rather than something out of the way, and they're a huge swing and a miss for me.
That is why I don't like primaris units aesthetically. It isn't just blind hate of primaris fluff, and I hope that is enough "explaining why" to satisfy you, or at least make you stop claiming everyone has no reasons.
Complaining for the sake of complaining! Here we go...
1. What's too many weapons on Aggressors? Not much different to anything else having too many weapons like a Land Raider or Terminators with CML or Ironclad Dreads. The frag launchers are pretty subtle for anything else in the game, and the Flamers aren't being combined with another weapon.
So seriously, what's too many weapons?
Also of course the torso seems big. Aggressors are basically weapons platforms, and fit the slight impracticality that comes from being in the 40k universe. Making them sleek would be stupid silly. Next.
2. Complaining about skull masks on a terror unit is pretty silly, especially since skulls are a focal point of design choices in 40k already. If we can't complain about Chaplains doing this (THEY'RE SPIRITUAL!!!), you can't complain about a terror unit using it. Also lopsided shoulder pads are prominent already. Fire Warriors are the easiest example of that.
3. You don't have the build the Dread with the extra armor. The website even shows examples of that. You also already kinda conceded by pointing out it's not supposed to be anthropomorphic anyway.
All the Dishwasher Dreads are silly anyway compared to what Contemptors have to offer us.
4. Yeah I'll concede on the Repulsor.
5. I have no idea what you're talking about with the posting on the Inceptors. They all look like they're about to land or in the middle of the first leap.
You can also pose them at a different angle if that bothers you.
Marmatag wrote: I actually don't like the primaris sculpts. I know this is probably heresy to many here. But they're just so much bigger than anything else on the table.
I would like them better if they had Custodes like rules, where they were something like 50 points apiece but were absolutely savage. Instead they're just "bigger marines," which doesn't really jive with me. Marines were big enough.
Take MiniMarines out of that equation of "bigger than anything else on the table".
What's the issue after that? They hulk over Eldar and humans? That doesn't seem like a valid complaint to me.
The issue is i don't like the aesthetic. They look like models from a different universe.
Is not liking the color "teal" an invalid stance as well?
In what manner do they look like they're from a different universe? How is Mk10 that much different than the other Mk armors? It isn't. That's the problem.
So if you're looking for hulking power armor...yeah, guess what actually fits the bill that fits on the tabletop?
Their scale looks strange next to nearly everything else.
Verbal descriptions like "hulking power armor" are pretty useless in this regard. "Hulking Power armor" can have a lot of aesthetic variation, some of it fitting, and some not. Like 2001 and The Black Hole could both be called "space movies". . . but there's a world of difference. Execution and context.
Intercessors look like "bigger space marines" with somewhat different proportions to most of the GW line. So they look out of place to many of us.
But you aren't describing what, exactly, is out of scale once you remove MiniMarines out of the equation.
Almost everything else. I don't like the way Primaris look next to Eldar or Tyranid Warrions either, for example. Imo if the plastic guard weren't so chunky there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: and of course the new Primaris Jump Marines are based almost exactly on originalRT artwork like alot of recent models
Sort of. The older artwork also looks like an assault marine dual-wielding bolt pistols so there's not really any clarity there.
Found this upon the internet. What's off and that you don't like?
Excellent find. That allows us to do a side-by-side and will hopefully really illustrate my side of this.
You can scoff at the old miniatures, but this is the size comparison I prefer. Tyranid Warriors are better as huge monsters, and marines are better as stalwart but outclassed defenders of the Imperium in comparison. Imo it gives the xenos threat more gravitas, and makes the marine more badass for fighting it. It's just more effin grimdark. I find the classic scale relationship infinitely more compelling from an atmospheric perspective.
Except those Warriors look like they're near 2-3× bigger by comparison, which makes little sense rules-wise.
Plus think about OTHER xeno threats like Raveners and even the Carnifex.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/28 01:19:08
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
It's fairly clear what GW is planning even if they are saying other wise. Anyone thinking about a marine army should clearly wait a couple of years. If not just for the Primaris conversion but also for the new C:SM considering how under powered it is right now.
2019/02/28 01:22:12
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Personally, the Repulsor has been growing on me. When the Repulsor was previewed, I didn't really like it. The turret was too short compared to it's hull, and it had a lot of crap. But, you know, it does look like a silly flying Bradley, and I like that.
I also love the new Eliminators . They're so silly looking, with the night-vision sets and the Binoculars, the rifles with the collapsing stocks and tactical rails, and the two barrel attachments on their gun. Like someone google-searched "Tacticool" and made a guy to personify a 12-year-old Call of Duty player's idea of "Special Forces".
The issue isn't "possible scale of models", the issue is the. . . how do I say it. . . the comparison of analogues between races. You don't scale your troops off the other factions vehicles. Tyranid Warrios are the "marines" of the Tyranids. Guardsmen personify Guard, Sisters personify Sisters, Aspect Warriors personify Eldar, IMO Tyranid Warriors personify Tyranids, and the traditional scale makes the faction as a whole seem more of a threat since their anthrapamorphic representation on the table is that much larger than the models of other races. It diminishes other factions to keep inflating marines.
This goes along with why I didn't like the nerfing of Necron Warriors and Immortals from their original codex to the 5th ed. one. Same principle. It's like it's impossible for people to accept basic troops that outclass marines, because of novels or whatever.
I think of Guardsmen as the stalwart defenders of the Imperium fighting things that horribly outclass them, and the Space Marines as elite super-soldier janissaries. Like, let me put it this way: If I want to play stalwart outgunned defenders, there's a faction that isn't genetically engineered super-soldiers to do it with. Genetically Engineered Supersoldier Janissary and Stalwart Outclassed Defender are not two themes that, in my mind go together.
I think of Marines as giant inhuman warriors who wade into gunfire, while the small size makes them look like scrappy underdogs.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/28 01:25:44
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/02/28 01:25:48
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Tbh the new chaos stuff is kind of the only reason I'm doubting the whole "classic marines ate getting squatted" narrative.
Why would they be putting out a box that is essentially primaris vs classic marines (chaos admittedly, but with classic marine armaments and aesthetic forms) if they're squatting the whole marine line?
Agree. Are we really going to enter an era where the good guy marines are just bigger and badder than the bad guy marines? That would be so dumb.
Classic CSM are going away too. Death Guard have unique marines. Thousand Sons have unique marines. Expect the legacy legions to also get squatted in time, as well. At least, that's my thought.
Old marines are going away. It's just happening in loyalist land first.
What?
Death guard have old style boltguns. old style power armor. old style backpacks. Old style helmets. So do thousand sons. So do the new chaos space marines coming out in an upcoming box set alongside the new primaris marines.
In your doomsday scenario here, are they releasing these models to just squat them later? I mean, I guess by your logic, literally any model release they put out is going to be squatted EVENTUALLY, right?
is any unit replaced by a new higher detailed kit "squatted"?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/28 01:32:58
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
The doom and gloom in this thread is mind boggling.
Could extend this logic to the entire 40k range. Why buy anything when it will get replaced in the future?
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |
2019/02/28 01:45:57
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except those Warriors look like they're near 2-3× bigger by comparison, which makes little sense rules-wise.
Plus think about OTHER xeno threats like Raveners and even the Carnifex.
Had a couple of those, back then there were no Raveners, Warriors were your primary elite choice and carnifexes looked like this:
And were apparently passing the Tank they just ate.
Hive Tyrants were terrifying, Warriors were serious threats and there were special rules saying your enemies could explicitly target them even if you had them screened because of how important synapse was to your army.
Those old Warriors, and the hive tyrants by extension, deserved to be that much larger than marines, they were supposed to be serious threats to them. But as the marines are invincible super-dudes narrative has marched along a whole lot of other things got watered down to suit it. That or they just leaned entirely too hard into making them a horde army when they adopted the zerg look rather than a horde lead by specific and important elites, particularly given warriors are troops these days.
2019/02/28 01:50:00
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
BaconCatBug wrote: 8.5 edition will soft-ban them by making their rules unsuitable compared to Pirmaris, who at that point will have fully replaced every oldmarine role.
9th edition will Squat them by making them "Index Only", in addition to making Index Only (as in the original indexes, not the supplemental ones like Assassins or Renegade Knights) entries Narrative Play only.
I'll refrain from saying "I told you so." when it happens.
And I will jump for joy when this day comes! Primaris are infinitely better models, rules and fluff! Bring on the revolution!
2019/02/28 02:36:59
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
The real thing that stops me from caring enough about Primaris to make an army about them is that, gameplaywise, there's not much customization you can do with primaris units. Primaris captains can have a sword and rifle or fist and pistol, for example and... well, that's it. It's so limiting. A lot of chapters can't even give primaris captains their unique chapter wargear.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2019/02/28 03:34:11
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Melissia wrote: The real thing that stops me from caring enough about Primaris to make an army about them is that, gameplaywise, there's not much customization you can do with primaris units. Primaris captains can have a sword and rifle or fist and pistol, for example and... well, that's it. It's so limiting. A lot of chapters can't even give primaris captains their unique chapter wargear.
Valid points. Same could have been said for wave 1 for Stormcast in AOS.
I'd imagine after this second release, Primaris will be much more in depth.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |
2019/02/28 05:07:11
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Or they could be relegated to merely supporting normal marines.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2019/02/28 05:07:54
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
The issue isn't "possible scale of models", the issue is the. . . how do I say it. . . the comparison of analogues between races. You don't scale your troops off the other factions vehicles. Tyranid Warrios are the "marines" of the Tyranids. Guardsmen personify Guard, Sisters personify Sisters, Aspect Warriors personify Eldar, IMO Tyranid Warriors personify Tyranids, and the traditional scale makes the faction as a whole seem more of a threat since their anthrapamorphic representation on the table is that much larger than the models of other races. It diminishes other factions to keep inflating marines.
This goes along with why I didn't like the nerfing of Necron Warriors and Immortals from their original codex to the 5th ed. one. Same principle. It's like it's impossible for people to accept basic troops that outclass marines, because of novels or whatever.
I think of Guardsmen as the stalwart defenders of the Imperium fighting things that horribly outclass them, and the Space Marines as elite super-soldier janissaries. Like, let me put it this way: If I want to play stalwart outgunned defenders, there's a faction that isn't genetically engineered super-soldiers to do it with. Genetically Engineered Supersoldier Janissary and Stalwart Outclassed Defender are not two themes that, in my mind go together.
I think of Marines as giant inhuman warriors who wade into gunfire, while the small size makes them look like scrappy underdogs.
I'll see your stalwart and raise you a grimdark. What I prefer is the imagery where the absolute best the imperium has to offer is clearly outmatched by basic soldiers of other at least one or two other factions. As good as marines are on an individual level, as a narrative point it's important to me that there are enemies they cant just wade through on an individual level, especially on the level of physical prowess.
If marines are by default the biggest fish in the pond, tension is removed. Traditionally, there are faction troops they can bully individually, there are faction troops they are on equal footing with (individually), and there are faction where they're on the defensive (individually). Imo that's ideal.
Except those Warriors look like they're near 2-3× bigger by comparison, which makes little sense rules-wise.
Plus think about OTHER xeno threats like Raveners and even the Carnifex.
Warriors currently have 3w and 3a, so I dont know what you're referring to, rules-wise.
Raveners are essentially the Warrior chassis. Warriors are the Tyranid "troops of the line", which is why I compare them to basic marines. Carnifexes are Tyranid Dreadnoughts, really.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 05:13:23
Melissia wrote: Or they could be relegated to merely supporting normal marines.
The proper course of action would have been to do the exact same thing that was done before with the change of marines back from the RT guys to the larger "modern" marines. No Primaris BS, just announce a new miniature scale, a rules buff to two wounds, and that would be that. You could still use your old minis, but the new models would be truescale and feature a lot of new toys. A "deluxe" line compared to the oldmarines. If anybody raised a fuss about the size difference, GW could just say that Guilliman unearthed some unspoilt geneseed with purity similar to the crusade era.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 08:18:26
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2019/02/28 09:50:14
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
Fluff has got nothing to do with it. There is so much I find off about them. They do look like a combo of mk7 and 8 with a mk4 like helmet, but its like someone has tried to take all the cool bits from these armour types to make a super cool looking armour suit, and has failed.
With the normal mk10 armour guys - They feel too big, chunky and cluttered. I don't like the extra plating on the arms and legs. I don't like the helmet faceplate, its too narrow and dominated by the side bits where the pipes connect. I don't like the knee pad rims. I don't like the oversized greaves and feet, they just look too big. The feet look silly with the heel and and the awkward upper foot plate. I don't like the flexi bits of stomach armour. The backpack looks mis proportioned and top heavy. The bolt rifles look too long. I don't like the belt being leather rather than an armoured piece. The gorget doesn't look right either.
With the aggressors and inceptors its similar problems to the standard mk10, just turned up to 11. Extremely chunky. The feet and greaves are ridiculously large, it just doesn't look right. Too much armour plating on more armour plating. Odd looking bucket hood armour over the helmets that is unnecessary. The Aggressors are poorly posed and all of them having the crotch reliquaries in the same place is odd and looks silly, I can only conclude they put them there because they couldn't decide how to do the crotch armour. Generally the way gravis armour is setup reminds me of the body proportions of winnie the poo
The Reivers don't have the chunkiness problem like the others, but I really don't like the skull faceplates, the tire tread stomach armour and the capri shorts and trainers looking leg armour. I know the greave area on the reivers was meant to look like English civil war era bucket boots, but it just doesn't work. The ankle bit is too thin and the upper part of the armour is too close to the knee area, so it really looks like they are wearing long shorts.
The Redemptor is ok and the Repulsor is quite good. Its the infantry models I don't like, the vehicles are ok so far.
Please note this is how I feel from a design and aesthetic view. You can say 'but some of those parts you don't like make sense being that way cause reasons!', but its not about that and something making sense on a model according to you doesn't mean it looks good aesthetically to me.
2019/02/28 12:58:17
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Melissia wrote: The real thing that stops me from caring enough about Primaris to make an army about them is that, gameplaywise, there's not much customization you can do with primaris units. Primaris captains can have a sword and rifle or fist and pistol, for example and... well, that's it. It's so limiting. A lot of chapters can't even give primaris captains their unique chapter wargear.
Yeah. If these new primaris marines come out, and they are a real actual REPLACEMENT for the current tactical squad, in terms of wargear options, customizability, and model character....I am all in on the primaris train. They redesigned marines to be bigger scaled, just like they did with the chaos ranges, and to have better leg posing: That is fine. A-OK. What they are doing at present is in my eyes basically like "Hey we've got this hot new redesigned terminator, we call it, A CENTURION! WOOO!~ AREN'T YOU EXCITED?"
Just for curiosity's sake, I pulled out one of my recent thousand sons rubrics, and one of my four primaris marines (I bought an ez-build kit of reivers to run in Kill Team with my deathwatch, and I had a free Intercessor from some kit I made up as a grenade launcher guy) and the height difference was fething imperceptible stood side by side.
TBH, the biggest height difference between even an older space marine model and one of my primaris was due to the fact that the 32mm bases are actually almost 1/3 again as tall as the 25mm bases. I had a couple of the current Space Wolves sculpt for comparison as well.
The primaris was mostly just differently proportioned to the rubric...IMO, not much of an improvement. The chest was higher, which was good, but kind of bulgy about the pectorals which leads to the primaris marine looking like he had micro-neck. The bottom portion of the primaris' legs, around the ankles, was much thicker, and oddly contrary to my expectations, the Primaris marine actually had much more of a "horse stance" to him. From forehead of the rubric to forehead of the primaris (obviously not counting the headdress which made the rubric taller) the difference was 4mm with my set of verniers. The arms were the same. The hips were about the same, though the MkX hips were differently shaped.
I like the lower torso of the primaris marine better, the upper chest of the classic marine better, the helmets of specifically intercessors better, and the legs of the primaris marine better except for the megaman cankles.
So, if GW actually delivered me the same product as classic marines in terms of gameplay (or at least similar) I think I'd be pretty happy. I'd probably scale up my classic marines to fit and run them as primaris. This seems like what they're set to do with chaos marines - the new black legionnaires out of blackstone fortress are very nearly the height of a primaris marine. The problem I run into with the current primaris marine is tthat they deliver a very different, and far simpler, gameplay experience that I don't enjoy as much. There are more fun looking armies to play if you want a super elite, slow, footslogging gunline. I'd play Necrons or Custodes first.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/28 13:05:40
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
You can scoff at the old miniatures, but this is the size comparison I prefer. Tyranid Warriors are better as huge monsters, and marines are better as stalwart but outclassed defenders of the Imperium in comparison. Imo it gives the xenos threat more gravitas, and makes the marine more badass for fighting it. It's just more effin grimdark. I find the classic scale relationship infinitely more compelling from an atmospheric perspective.
Thing is, when those models were made, the Tyranid Warriors were amongst the biggest models in the game. Now this is not even remotely true. So if you want Primaris Marines to face giant hulking alien bugs that completely dwarf them, that certainly can be arranged!
Grimdark is lame and very 90s. 2nd ed models were awful.
2019/02/28 15:04:43
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
Fluff has got nothing to do with it. There is so much I find off about them. They do look like a combo of mk7 and 8 with a mk4 like helmet, but its like someone has tried to take all the cool bits from these armour types to make a super cool looking armour suit, and has failed.
With the normal mk10 armour guys - They feel too big, chunky and cluttered. I don't like the extra plating on the arms and legs. I don't like the helmet faceplate, its too narrow and dominated by the side bits where the pipes connect. I don't like the knee pad rims. I don't like the oversized greaves and feet, they just look too big. The feet look silly with the heel and and the awkward upper foot plate. I don't like the flexi bits of stomach armour. The backpack looks mis proportioned and top heavy. The bolt rifles look too long. I don't like the belt being leather rather than an armoured piece. The gorget doesn't look right either.
With the aggressors and inceptors its similar problems to the standard mk10, just turned up to 11. Extremely chunky. The feet and greaves are ridiculously large, it just doesn't look right. Too much armour plating on more armour plating. Odd looking bucket hood armour over the helmets that is unnecessary. The Aggressors are poorly posed and all of them having the crotch reliquaries in the same place is odd and looks silly, I can only conclude they put them there because they couldn't decide how to do the crotch armour. Generally the way gravis armour is setup reminds me of the body proportions of winnie the poo
The Reivers don't have the chunkiness problem like the others, but I really don't like the skull faceplates, the tire tread stomach armour and the capri shorts and trainers looking leg armour. I know the greave area on the reivers was meant to look like English civil war era bucket boots, but it just doesn't work. The ankle bit is too thin and the upper part of the armour is too close to the knee area, so it really looks like they are wearing long shorts.
The Redemptor is ok and the Repulsor is quite good. Its the infantry models I don't like, the vehicles are ok so far.
Please note this is how I feel from a design and aesthetic view. You can say 'but some of those parts you don't like make sense being that way cause reasons!', but its not about that and something making sense on a model according to you doesn't mean it looks good aesthetically to me.
. Cluttered
. Oversized feet
. Backpack too top heavy
Literally most of these complaints could be used for MiniMarines. Here's a direct comparison again. Also what belt being leather? Some people just paint them that way.
So start pointing out the specific stuff that can't be complained about with MiniMarines. You're on purpose looking for things ti be annoyed by because you refuse change.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/28 15:32:40
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
"People don't like primaris marines for no reason! There is no aesthetic reason to not like them! Therefore they must just be blindly hating them because of their fluff and lying, saying they have aesthetic problems with them!"
Other people:
"No, here are my specific aesthetic problems with them, in my opinion."
Slayerfan:
"THAT IS NOT A VALID OPINION BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH IT! Therefore you dislike Primaris Marines for no reason!"
Automatically Appended Next Post: (FTR: I completely understand the reasoning behind why GW added all the extra armor plates to the legs of primaris marines and replaced the face grille with a front plate, and I agree with the decision to do so. It adds more hard edges to the parts of the space marine that typically only looked good when carefully layered, meaning that a primaris marine looks better with a basic base coat/wash/drybrush paint scheme that a new player might apply. You can still layer paint them, so a high quality paintjob looks similarly good, but the added hard edges makes drybrush and simple edge highlights look better on the primaris armor.
I don't share robbienw's opinion, but that does not mean I don't think he's entitled to hold it. I also do not think slayer isn't entitled to hold his own opinion that primaris-equivalent units are superior to the previous marine designs in every way.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 15:38:42
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/02/28 16:24:07
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
robbienw wrote: Your point does not stand. Its not a 'got you', you are just wrong. You should have said they are slightly closer to being realistically proportioned to 'everything else' then, because they are not realistically proportioned.
There being nothing off with their design aesthetic is your individual opinion, it is not fact. Primaris mega fans trying to assert their opinions as fact seems to be a bit of a on ongoing theme.
In my opinion, there are a lot of things off with the primaris design aethsetic, and the classic marine model design aethsetic is superior. It may be the case that it is you that needs to get over other people having a differing view to yours.
Pray tell...
What's off, design-wise? They fit the general aesthetic of a new armor, like a combination of Mk7, 8, and 4, the Bolters are just slightly bigger, and they're more realistically proportioned.
I said it once and I'll say it again: it is just hate of Primaris fluff. Everyone can keep saying they don't fit the setting, but they never explain how.
Fluff has got nothing to do with it. There is so much I find off about them. They do look like a combo of mk7 and 8 with a mk4 like helmet, but its like someone has tried to take all the cool bits from these armour types to make a super cool looking armour suit, and has failed.
With the normal mk10 armour guys - They feel too big, chunky and cluttered. I don't like the extra plating on the arms and legs. I don't like the helmet faceplate, its too narrow and dominated by the side bits where the pipes connect. I don't like the knee pad rims. I don't like the oversized greaves and feet, they just look too big. The feet look silly with the heel and and the awkward upper foot plate. I don't like the flexi bits of stomach armour. The backpack looks mis proportioned and top heavy. The bolt rifles look too long. I don't like the belt being leather rather than an armoured piece. The gorget doesn't look right either.
With the aggressors and inceptors its similar problems to the standard mk10, just turned up to 11. Extremely chunky. The feet and greaves are ridiculously large, it just doesn't look right. Too much armour plating on more armour plating. Odd looking bucket hood armour over the helmets that is unnecessary. The Aggressors are poorly posed and all of them having the crotch reliquaries in the same place is odd and looks silly, I can only conclude they put them there because they couldn't decide how to do the crotch armour. Generally the way gravis armour is setup reminds me of the body proportions of winnie the poo
The Reivers don't have the chunkiness problem like the others, but I really don't like the skull faceplates, the tire tread stomach armour and the capri shorts and trainers looking leg armour. I know the greave area on the reivers was meant to look like English civil war era bucket boots, but it just doesn't work. The ankle bit is too thin and the upper part of the armour is too close to the knee area, so it really looks like they are wearing long shorts.
The Redemptor is ok and the Repulsor is quite good. Its the infantry models I don't like, the vehicles are ok so far.
Please note this is how I feel from a design and aesthetic view. You can say 'but some of those parts you don't like make sense being that way cause reasons!', but its not about that and something making sense on a model according to you doesn't mean it looks good aesthetically to me.
. Cluttered
. Oversized feet
. Backpack too top heavy
Literally most of these complaints could be used for MiniMarines. Here's a direct comparison again. Also what belt being leather? Some people just paint them that way.
So start pointing out the specific stuff that can't be complained about with MiniMarines. You're on purpose looking for things ti be annoyed by because you refuse change.
The old claim that someone doesn't like/can't take change is a really poor argument to attempt. Its one of those arguments people try going to when they can't admit they don't like it because other people are disagreeing with their subjective opinions and their is actually nothing they can argue against. It also assumes all change is good, which is not necessarily true.
I did actually point out plenty of stuff there that doesn't apply to the classic marines, oversized greaves, extra armour plating on armour plating, overly long rifle, heel and awkward upper plate on feet, the stomach armour, bucket hoods, etc.
Its also possible to like characteristics on one model and dislike similar characteristics on another model, because of the way they fit into the design, or the degree to which a characteristic has been used or overused in a design. The classic marines feet are also big for example, but they fit into the design a lot better. In my opinion son.
I know you may like these things, but I don't and i'm telling you what I don't like about the primaris design aethesetic. Its not a debate, you can't decide for me what I find good looking or not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/28 16:27:29
2019/02/28 16:24:42
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah. If these new primaris marines come out, and they are a real actual REPLACEMENT for the current tactical squad, in terms of wargear options, customizability, and model character....I am all in on the primaris train.
Agreed. Literally the lack of customization options is what kept me from getting primaris for my BA. If they add customization, I might make a primaris raven guard army.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
5300 | 
2800 | 
3600 | 
1600 | 
