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I think we can all admit that the GK fluff and the GK lore are far from similar. In fact they share nothing in common. There is not going to be a GK codex re-release, and 8th isn't going anywhere soon. Thus, GK might get a CA update for points in the near future, but don't expect GK to get any more massive changes until either a couple more years or 9th.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can all admit that the GK fluff and the GK lore are far from similar. In fact they share nothing in common. There is not going to be a GK codex re-release, and 8th isn't going anywhere soon. Thus, GK might get a CA update for points in the near future, but don't expect GK to get any more massive changes until either a couple more years or 9th.

As much as I would actually love to put together and paint my GK army, I'm not holding my breath for any updates for GK in CA2019 or the next Big FAQ. I have a feeling all they will be doing is implementing the new Beta rules and attempting to balance the armies that are always appearing at the top of the charts rather than fixing the least competitive to allow people who spent a lot of time collecting them to play them.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can all admit that the GK fluff and the GK lore are far from similar. In fact they share nothing in common. There is not going to be a GK codex re-release, and 8th isn't going anywhere soon. Thus, GK might get a CA update for points in the near future, but don't expect GK to get any more massive changes until either a couple more years or 9th.

As much as I would actually love to put together and paint my GK army, I'm not holding my breath for any updates for GK in CA2019 or the next Big FAQ. I have a feeling all they will be doing is implementing the new Beta rules and attempting to balance the armies that are always appearing at the top of the charts rather than fixing the least competitive to allow people who spent a lot of time collecting them to play them.

SG

There are really only two steps to playing GK. 1. Take box of GK back to store. 2. Buy literally any other army.

BUDFORCE wrote:


So basically I think nothing will happen. Another thing, I cannot see GW moving to 9th anytime soon, 8th has been a good success for them.

Maybe not 9th Edition but I think we do need an 8.5, like they did with Necromunda 2017. There are just too many books, FAQ's and Errata out there; they need to consolidate.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can all admit that the GK fluff and the GK lore are far from similar. In fact they share nothing in common. There is not going to be a GK codex re-release, and 8th isn't going anywhere soon. Thus, GK might get a CA update for points in the near future, but don't expect GK to get any more massive changes until either a couple more years or 9th.

Given the Shadowspears box releasing "minidex: SM/CSM subfaction" rather than an update to the book if they do make Primaris GK it'll probably be with a "minidex: two Primaris GK units".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can all admit that the GK fluff and the GK lore are far from similar. In fact they share nothing in common. There is not going to be a GK codex re-release, and 8th isn't going anywhere soon. Thus, GK might get a CA update for points in the near future, but don't expect GK to get any more massive changes until either a couple more years or 9th.

Given the Shadowspears box releasing "minidex: SM/CSM subfaction" rather than an update to the book if they do make Primaris GK it'll probably be with a "minidex: two Primaris GK units".

Again, they can't do that. It would require the Imperium FINDING TITAN. Until then, all they have is a Magic Woowidget that magically teleports 1 person to a meeting with the current grand master of the chapter. Literally the only way for a NON-GK to get onto Titan. According to the books. Now the GK have some form of "secret Woowidget" that allows them to blahblahblah who cares.

GW has stated numerous times, they are not updating GK any time soon, and that would stand to reason new units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

If I'm not supposed to look at the datasheet then my only basis for making any calls here is either four editions out of date or based on Matt Ward's ludicrous exaggerations about how every Grey Knight is a super badass who can kill Greater Daemons with his bare hands.

I don't know who Matt Ward is, but in the GK codex we have right now, to be come a GK paladin you have to go in to the chaos realm naked with no weapons and no armor, just the knowladge of the mystic arts and beat up a demon of every kind. So yeah GK are that good, their basic troops should be better then other marines heros,

Matt Ward is the guy who wrote the 5e Grey Knight book and decided that they should be "the mostest badassest of all the Spess Mahreens" rather than being a Space Marine Chapter specializing in fighting daemons. (Ironically that was also the book that nerfed them from WS5/A2/Ld9 to WS4/A1/Ld8.)

Except he wrote nothing like that, not if you don't count illiterate 4chan delusions. Matt Ward is by far the most competent rule writer GW had ever had, responsible for the most balanced (and fun) 40K edition in history, the 5th. While I still consider 8th to be better rule set, there is no question 5th edition books were better balanced than any other in GW history, the two outliers being non-Ward ones. Certainly nothing like Kelly's vile touch on Eldar books (and a lot more besides) in last three whole editions.

Also, funny you mention that, because after this ""nerf"" (which ignores the fact they had, unlike 3rd edition GK, actual, proper tools to do their job, and the statline you mention was basic, OK troop squad with every other GK unit being improvement on it somehow) a lot of people were whining how ""OP"" GK were (because they were no longer the worst army of the game, though every other 5th edition book could fight them as equals). GK were fun, with lots of possible builds, from Draigowing, Toquemada shenanigans, Ordo Xenos/assassins mix, mechanized GK, Crowe and co, on pure foot lists ending. I loved the variety of possible lists, fun, little lore tidbits (with Valeria's fluff giving us Trollzyn for the first time, for one), obvious thought that went into all options, and arsenal of esoteric gear Inquisitors had.

It's telling that every single 'fix' list after inept Ward successors castrated the army edition later pretty much says 'give us back the 5th edition book'

Matt Ward the best ruler writer GW ever had? Didn't he wrote the 7th edition Chaos Demon Army Book for fantasy, the most busted army book/codex ever written for any GW system?

If we are going to advance the fluff maybe just make GKs the emperor's sorcerers chapter, like TS if they had remained good. So their focus would be psychics but less about just killing demons. This would make them distinct from regular Marines and custodes and could really let the rules be creative instead of forcing everything down an anti-demon path.

 Irbis wrote:
...Except he wrote nothing like that, not if you don't count illiterate 4chan delusions. Matt Ward is by far the most competent rule writer GW had ever had, responsible for the most balanced (and fun) 40K edition in history, the 5th. While I still consider 8th to be better rule set, there is no question 5th edition books were better balanced than any other in GW history, the two outliers being non-Ward ones. Certainly nothing like Kelly's vile touch on Eldar books (and a lot more besides) in last three whole editions.

Also, funny you mention that, because after this ""nerf"" (which ignores the fact they had, unlike 3rd edition GK, actual, proper tools to do their job, and the statline you mention was basic, OK troop squad with every other GK unit being improvement on it somehow) a lot of people were whining how ""OP"" GK were (because they were no longer the worst army of the game, though every other 5th edition book could fight them as equals). GK were fun, with lots of possible builds, from Draigowing, Toquemada shenanigans, Ordo Xenos/assassins mix, mechanized GK, Crowe and co, on pure foot lists ending. I loved the variety of possible lists, fun, little lore tidbits (with Valeria's fluff giving us Trollzyn for the first time, for one), obvious thought that went into all options, and arsenal of esoteric gear Inquisitors had.

It's telling that every single 'fix' list after inept Ward successors castrated the army edition later pretty much says 'give us back the 5th edition book'

I do think it's telling that all the problems that turned 6e and 7e into kludgy unbalanced messes got their start in 5e. Generalist-weapon-trumps-specialist-weapon (when was the last time you saw someone take a meltagun when you could take a plasma gun instead?), the love-hate relationship with psykers (one psyker must be so incredibly OP that there's no way we could consider allowing all the psykers in an army to use a power every turn), dumping sane unit type distributions in favour of letting people spam anything they want, heavy tank squadrons, Flyers...

A lot of the stuff that GW chose to blow up 7e to fix either started in 5e or started as a direct reaction to bugs in 5e. And a lot of the screwy problems that got started in 5e are still here.

(I regard Matt Ward as a kind of a creative wrecking ball who is competent with rules when given control over a system (ex. LotR) but makes no effort to coordinate or consider other designers when working on a bigger project (ex. WHFB, 40k), who also writes offensively terrible fluff.)

I don't know what will happen to Grey Knights. It'd be nice if the got a bit bigger. Honestly keeping them in Aegis Terminator armour and making them the size of Allarus Terminators would be good. I'm really hoping loyalist Terminators don't get written out of the setting completely.

Surely one of the contributing factors here is that Custodes have kinda occupied the same niche that GK were originally intended for (better-than-Marine individual heroes), but done it MUCH better, to the point where Custodes are actually functional and GK don't really have much to do.

I think, background wise, the way to solve this is to concentrate on the fact that they're Marines means that they're amazing at co-ordinated strikes. (As opposed to Custodes being individual warriors). This could be enhanced by making them Primaris - which doesn't mean Intercessors - just giving them the extra wound and keeping the Terminator armour. Increase their offensive psychic powers, especially when they work as a group (number of models in squad increases range/power/ease of casting psychics). Change The Aegis to give them additional protection when in a group.

So you end up with two very different-feeling 'elite' armies:

- Custodes is focused on the toughness of the individual model, their devastating ability in assault, and their cool high-damage equipment.

- Grey Knight armies would be around the same size, focused around T4 'primaris' in terminator armour. They're not as individually tough, but way more protected in full-strength units. Their Deep Strike is better. They're reasonably good at countering psychics, but their main strength is devastating psychic powers (again, stronger in groups) which is an advantage that works against any army. They're still good in melee with all those force weapons, but not as individually good as Custodes.

This means that, while Custodes play as a hardcore melee army of super-tough warriors, Grey Knights would be more a finesse army - they'd have more ranged power, be REALLY focused around the psychic phase, and while still tougher than Marines, keeping them alive and powerful all game relies on good timing, support and co-ordination.

So again, fluff walls abound. GW will have to "Superman Returns" GK with some dumb marvel level fluff re-writes.

Operating on the grand assumption that they do this, you are still hoping that the 100% rebuilt GK isn't another massive disappointment.

When every army has deep strike, psycher units, and now loads of shooting, you have to ask yourself, what can you do to make GK special? Having them be a counter to a specific hardly used army is worthless, having them be a 1k sons loyalist army would be boring.

The only way you can make them different is to give them something that makes them the best at one thing. I say make it melee. Loyalists don't really have a Melee dominant army. Give them tons of charge and melee shenanigans. Up their attacks, AP, and damage.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, fluff walls abound. GW will have to "Superman Returns" GK with some dumb marvel level fluff re-writes...

...Like they do with almost every Codex/edition release?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, fluff walls abound. GW will have to "Superman Returns" GK with some dumb marvel level fluff re-writes...

...Like they do with almost every Codex/edition release?

OPINION WARNIN!!!!

I have a feeling that GK have been teased for the last 2 editions as the savior of the EMperor. Their magic box on the front of their armor contains a magic whoknowswhat that is rumored to be of the same make as the golden throne (CUE DUM DUM DUMMMMMMMM!)

But seriously, we're all just waiting for Big E to die at this point, and cause the GK to enact their "special plan". In the meanwhile, they are relegated to crap slot for the foreseeable future. I'm betting Emps head falls off in the next edition, and suddenly BAM, every GK in the Galaxy suddenly does a OMGITSASCROLLOFRESURRECTION! I'm calling it. Next Primarch to come back is Big E.

And he will have a GK Paladin statline.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, fluff walls abound. GW will have to "Superman Returns" GK with some dumb marvel level fluff re-writes...

...Like they do with almost every Codex/edition release?

OPINION WARNIN!!!!

I have a feeling that GK have been teased for the last 2 editions as the savior of the EMperor. Their magic box on the front of their armor contains a magic whoknowswhat that is rumored to be of the same make as the golden throne (CUE DUM DUM DUMMMMMMMM!)

But seriously, we're all just waiting for Big E to die at this point, and cause the GK to enact their "special plan". In the meanwhile, they are relegated to crap slot for the foreseeable future. I'm betting Emps head falls off in the next edition, and suddenly BAM, every GK in the Galaxy suddenly does a OMGITSASCROLLOFRESURRECTION! I'm calling it. Next Primarch to come back is Big E.

And he will have a GK Paladin statline.

Bah, that Thing on the Golden Throne never was the Emperor. Lorgar still cackles at night for the dread worship he inspired of that Dark Thing. It has feasted on a thousand souls a day and been empowered by the prayers and praise uttered to it across a million battlefields a day. Twice it has stirred in its sleep, sending ripples across the galaxy, but the chains of the Golden Throne have held it fast. It is not the Key of Hope that the Grey Knights hold that will repair the failing Throne or allow its occupant to ascend to the status of a noble and bright god, it is the Key of Ending that they have been bequeathed - that will annihilate the throne and its occupant before it becomes another Child of Chaos. For they are the Grey Knights, not the Imperium's White Knights. They will do what must be done to save the Imperium, even should it mean the sacrifice of its maker. Long ago their prognosticators looking into the future and saw the Day of Ending. But as always, their vision of it was clouded by the fury of the Warp. They know one day the throne will fail, and on that day the Emperor will become ... something else. They have not moved against the Throne for the time has not been right and it has been too well-guarded by the Custodes. Even Abbaddon knew what was coming, and tore the galaxy in half to stop it. Yet, deprived of half a galaxy worth's of prayers, Abbaddon has only slowed the Thing on the Golden Throne's feeding. Inadvertently, he has drawn the Custodes away from their post, as well as the Marines who once stood watch over the great palace. Deimos is on the move, and soon they will strike. But though they believe they are ending a long stain on humanity, little do they realize they are merely loosening its chains.

Or at least, if I was in charge, that's what I'd do to 40K.

 Stormonu wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, fluff walls abound. GW will have to "Superman Returns" GK with some dumb marvel level fluff re-writes...

...Like they do with almost every Codex/edition release?

OPINION WARNIN!!!!

I have a feeling that GK have been teased for the last 2 editions as the savior of the EMperor. Their magic box on the front of their armor contains a magic whoknowswhat that is rumored to be of the same make as the golden throne (CUE DUM DUM DUMMMMMMMM!)

But seriously, we're all just waiting for Big E to die at this point, and cause the GK to enact their "special plan". In the meanwhile, they are relegated to crap slot for the foreseeable future. I'm betting Emps head falls off in the next edition, and suddenly BAM, every GK in the Galaxy suddenly does a OMGITSASCROLLOFRESURRECTION! I'm calling it. Next Primarch to come back is Big E.

And he will have a GK Paladin statline.

Bah, that Thing on the Golden Throne never was the Emperor. Lorgar still cackles at night for the dread worship he inspired of that Dark Thing. It has feasted on a thousand souls a day and been empowered by the prayers and praise uttered to it across a million battlefields a day. Twice it has stirred in its sleep, sending ripples across the galaxy, but the chains of the Golden Throne have held it fast. It is not the Key of Hope that the Grey Knights hold that will repair the failing Throne or allow its occupant to ascend to the status of a noble and bright god, it is the Key of Ending that they have been bequeathed - that will annihilate the throne and its occupant before it becomes another Child of Chaos. For they are the Grey Knights, not the Imperium's White Knights. They will do what must be done to save the Imperium, even should it mean the sacrifice of its maker. Long ago their prognosticators looking into the future and saw the Day of Ending. But as always, their vision of it was clouded by the fury of the Warp. They know one day the throne will fail, and on that day the Emperor will become ... something else. They have not moved against the Throne for the time has not been right and it has been too well-guarded by the Custodes. Even Abbaddon knew what was coming, and tore the galaxy in half to stop it. Yet, deprived of half a galaxy worth's of prayers, Abbaddon has only slowed the Thing on the Golden Throne's feeding. Inadvertently, he has drawn the Custodes away from their post, as well as the Marines who once stood watch over the great palace. Deimos is on the move, and soon they will strike. But though they believe they are ending a long stain on humanity, little do they realize they are merely loosening its chains.

Or at least, if I was in charge, that's what I'd do to 40K.

Don't worry, Sly Marbo will return an shed a single tear on the foot of the emperor. The resulting explosion will wipe out all Chaos and Xenos.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Again, they can't do that. It would require the Imperium FINDING TITAN. Until then, all they have is a Magic Woowidget that magically teleports 1 person to a meeting with the current grand master of the chapter. Literally the only way for a NON-GK to get onto Titan. According to the books. Now the GK have some form of "secret Woowidget" that allows them to blahblahblah who cares.

Where does this information come from?

In the novel The Emperor's Gift (set ~400-500 years before current lore, during the first war for Armageddon) Logan Grimnar dispatches two frigates to Titan when communications couldn't be established. One of the frigates actually crash lands on Titan itself.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Again, they can't do that. It would require the Imperium FINDING TITAN. Until then, all they have is a Magic Woowidget that magically teleports 1 person to a meeting with the current grand master of the chapter. Literally the only way for a NON-GK to get onto Titan. According to the books. Now the GK have some form of "secret Woowidget" that allows them to blahblahblah who cares.

Where does this information come from?

In the novel The Emperor's Gift (set ~400-500 years before current lore, during the first war for Armageddon) Logan Grimnar dispatches two frigates to Titan when communications couldn't be established. One of the frigates actually crash lands on Titan itself.

It may be a misremembering/misunderstanding of the events during the Heresy when Malcador hid Titan from the rest of the galaxy using psychic and technological means. Titan only re-emerged after the Heresy itself. There's no current lore, as far as I know, that states anything like what the above poster describes. The GK are still pretty secretive and not common knowledge, even to some of the High Lords.

...To be honest, with the level of depth they're relaunching the chaos marines line, I think at this point I almost buy the GW line that Primaris are actually honestly intended to be their own thing ALONGSIDE classic marine designs, rather than replacing them.

They're putting out a brand new kit for chaos marines, devastators, and a brand new abbadon in classic style terminator armor. It is heavily believed due to them going OOS No Returns that they will also replace the CSM bikers on top of that, and new Terminator designs have been shown in the art with the new dark apostle. We also have the ex-centurion design for the oblits....that's a loooooooot of kits to be dumping into a line they're planning to squat.

I know nobody will actually believe it until they come out with a loyalist space marine unit in some kind of classic power armor, but at this point, I don't know...maybe they will keep old marines around with the classic designs but scaled up as they are doing with csms. I don't know. They are not behaving in anything I could call a rational way at this point, maybe their insane "nope, we really honestly just wanted to release a new taller line of space marines ALONGSIDE regular space marines" line is actually the TRUTH.

Maybe I'm the craziest conspiracy theorist on dakka now because I believe in the crazy conspiracy theory that there might actually be no conspiracy to secretly squat standard design marines.

They way to make them unique and give options is to roll them back into an Inquisition codex. An Inquisitor leading henchmen troops backed up by paladins and dreadknights is something normal marine armies can’t do mono codex, and was one of the strong points of GK in previous editions.

the_scotsman wrote:
...To be honest, with the level of depth they're relaunching the chaos marines line, I think at this point I almost buy the GW line that Primaris are actually honestly intended to be their own thing ALONGSIDE classic marine designs, rather than replacing them.

They're putting out a brand new kit for chaos marines, devastators, and a brand new abbadon in classic style terminator armor. It is heavily believed due to them going OOS No Returns that they will also replace the CSM bikers on top of that, and new Terminator designs have been shown in the art with the new dark apostle. We also have the ex-centurion design for the oblits....that's a loooooooot of kits to be dumping into a line they're planning to squat.

I know nobody will actually believe it until they come out with a loyalist space marine unit in some kind of classic power armor, but at this point, I don't know...maybe they will keep old marines around with the classic designs but scaled up as they are doing with csms. I don't know. They are not behaving in anything I could call a rational way at this point, maybe their insane "nope, we really honestly just wanted to release a new taller line of space marines ALONGSIDE regular space marines" line is actually the TRUTH.

Maybe I'm the craziest conspiracy theorist on dakka now because I believe in the crazy conspiracy theory that there might actually be no conspiracy to secretly squat standard design marines.

What’s going to be weird is we’re going to have a CSM army with primarily one wound, and loyalists with two...

They have already said that GW are getting a new Dex.

I hope they take the choice to move the game forward in the story line with them.

I think they should combine release them with a new 1KSons dex, and have them run essentially the same way. How troop psykers are run, how the basic power works, more than 1 spell list for each faction, those kind of things.

just get whoever wrote the custodes codex to oversee the new grey knight one
1. great to soup in at high-level tournaments
2. can be played mono no problem in casual games
3. feels like each guy is a hero
GK just need to copy these points from the golden boys with their own unique feel

Reemule wrote:
They have already said that GW are getting a new Dex.

I hope they take the choice to move the game forward in the story line with them.

I think they should combine release them with a new 1KSons dex, and have them run essentially the same way. How troop psykers are run, how the basic power works, more than 1 spell list for each faction, those kind of things.

Could you tell me where they said that GK are getting a new codex?

It was in the Q&A at the LVO. They said they were going to redo some early Dex. GK was specifically mentioned.

cool, thank you.

Drop GMDKs by 50pts, drop Paladins by 10pts and give them better stat lines, completely trash Psy weapons and remake them, because they are crap.

Give them exact copies of the Bananas Psychic disciplines. Done.

I think many, if not all, the infantry need +1 attack.

Make the psycannon a tad better or cheaper.

Make their psychic powers better



If you REALLY want to be interesting, do what GK did in 3rd edition, let their Sergeants take heavy weapon upgrades too.