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Voss wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think that's kind of the joke. Steve would know all that stuff works out sort of okay in the end, so while everyone else in panicking he's just going on with life.

If you want to go dark:

Peggy: Oh god the Twin Towers!
Cap: Don't worry. We get them. *drinks a smoothie*

There's something deeply uncomfortable about "Captain America" not preventing 9/11

I think around the time that happened they covered it in one of the comics. Cap's guilt about not being able to prevent it or something. I only heard about it though, as I don't read comic books much.

Right, most comics pulled a 'everybody was away' bit. (Alongside a fair amount of debate whether or not it would be tasteless to just have superheroes stop it in various comic universes)

But this would be Cap aware it was coming because of time shenanigans (alternate universe or not), and dismissing it with a shrug and a smoothie is *way* out of character, even if he is 'laying low' and somehow successfully hiding from SHIELD while married to someone who'd get a lot scrutiny 24/7. And its one of dozens of incidents where he'd have to actively discard his character and morals to have an anonymous 'happily ever after.'

And prevent death of waaaaaaaay more people than died in the 9/11.

Save those to make for even worse future? Yep yep.

Yup.

Ripples in the pond. Cap knows he shouldn't interfere, because whilst you prevent one atrocity, who knows what will follow?

Example, In-Universe.

9/11 lead to the spotlight being put on Islamic Extremism. From there, we got the War in Afghanistan, War in Iraq, ISIL and numerous terrorist atrocities across the world.

Now, remove 9/11. It's prevented by Cap. The evil never happens (we can find out where they parked their car, simple enough matter to lurk around then give them a battering).

Suddenly, no reason for a war in Afghanistan. And where was Tony Stark when he became Iron Man?

Nice one, Cap. You just prevented the hero that unsnapped the snap from ever coming to be. Now what? Without Tony's funding, you also don't have Spiderman at the level you need him. Dr Strange likely snuffs it at Thanos' hands. Vision never exists. Wanda Maximoff likely doesn't join The Avengers.

It'd take me longer than I currently have to work out the full impact of a simple 'remove Iron Man from the equation'. But I'm pretty sure it includes New York being Nuked, quite possibly killing all the Avengers (not completely convinced Hulk or Thor could survive that).

Then where are we?

Cap is walking down the sidewalk. Another guy trips and Cap catches him. That guy was Nick Fury’s father. Because he didn’t trip Nick Fury’s mother didn’t stop to help him up and they never met. Nick Fury was never born. The Avengers were never created. New York was nuked.

 AduroT wrote:
Cap is walking down the sidewalk. Another guy trips and Cap catches him. That guy was Nick Fury’s father. Because he didn’t trip Nick Fury’s mother didn’t stop to help him up and they never met. Nick Fury was never born. The Avengers were never created. New York was nuked.

Alternatively, Cap accidentally trips Nick Fury's father causing him to bump into Nick Fury's mother and that was how they met originally. Thus Nick Fury can be born

I'm maintaining that there have ALWAYS been 2 Caps in the MCU timeline, and old Cap was just staying behind the scenes. He didn't change anything by stay in the past, because he ALWAYS stayed in the past. It's a time loop
Any explanation that involves Cap creating/living in an alternate timeline means it is one of the 14+ million timelines that Thanos succeeds with his snap. The whole POINT of returning the stone to there original times/places was to prevent any of those timelines existing at all.

-

Yup. Cap going back, and staying back, so far as we currently know, is just dandy. There's still the Capsicle for The First Avenger, so him kicking about Civvy Street isn't a clash.

And he knows enough about his time out of the ice to be able to keep his head down.

However - it does open up Cap sequel/prequel type affairs, where perhaps he does play a role? I, mean, heck. Bucky managed to remain unidentified, despite being a legendary assassin. Why not Cap?

But ultimately, we still only have Bruce and Nebula's word for how time works. And as we've seen, Bruce's knowledge of the Quantum Realm is......incomplete, shall we say?

I've also heard an argument that Steve returned all the stones to where he found them, then popped over to an alternate universe to live out his life with Peggy, then popped back to hand over the shield to Falcon. I'm not entirely happy with that* but there you go.

* Mainly because I find alternate realities irritating and an excuse for bad split-screen effects. However, the trailer for Spiderman Far From home seems to be going that way so I'll just need to suck it up.

I have seen the Far From Home trailer, but am unsure how it points to alternate realities in Marvel Universe.

Can someone help a fellow out and explain it to me?

 Easy E wrote:
I have seen the Far From Home trailer, but am unsure how it points to alternate realities in Marvel Universe.

Can someone help a fellow out and explain it to me?

One of the Trailers has Mysterio (or Fury in reference to Mysterio) say he's from an alternate universe or something to that affect.
However given Mysterio's tendency to deceive, it might not be true.

-

They specifically say Mysterio is from an alternate earth. They call the MCU earth 616, which oddly is the comic reality when the movie reality was previous said to be iirc 199999. Mysterio is from the earth of the UK Spider-Man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But also yes I don’t know if I believe him either.

Let's be honest. None of it is real in far away. There is no alternate reality invasion or monsters. It's all Mysterio and illusions.

So the writers of Endgame (who also wrote the Cap trilogy) have confirmed in interviews that Cap was always meant to go back and be Peggy's husband and have 2 kids with her.
Pretty sure that confirms Old Cap was always in the MCU.

-

Really?

Two kids?

Any hints of who they might be and/or if the benefits of the Super Soldier Serum is also somehow passed on to them?

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Two kids?

Any hints of who they might be and/or if the benefits of the Super Soldier Serum is also somehow passed on to them?

the writers hinted at that, but were cryptic about it. Basically his kids would be in the 60s, so it would be Caps grand kids showing up with powers if at all

Now I want a Sitcom.

 Galef wrote:
So the writers of Endgame (who also wrote the Cap trilogy) have confirmed in interviews that Cap was always meant to go back and be Peggy's husband and have 2 kids with her.
Pretty sure that confirms Old Cap was always in the MCU.

-

No?

For one, the writers and directors have disagreed over 'what means what' in interviews over a lot of things, including the time/reality travel. So its less 'confirmed' and more 'the opinion of one voice among several.'

For two, having kids doesn't at all suggest which reality they're in. Nor is either a barrier to a plot just having them show up- this is Marvel after all: future, past and alternate universe children are a long and tedious plot point.
See anyone with the last name Summers or anyone who might be married to/cloned/spawned from them.


As for Mysterio- absolutely, that might be fake. But...it also might not be fake. And alternate universe Loki is pretty much a guarantee at this point (what with him getting a series and all), so alternate universe shenanigans can never be ruled out anymore. Ever.
And in very real sense it doesn't matter. Whether Mysterio or Kang or Cable or literally whoever shows up from an alternate reality or gets powered in the prime reality is... of no consequence whatsoever. Its a trivial backstory detail that doesn't even need to come up after the first time it gets mentioned. Or, even the first time, honestly. While the Infinity Stones were indirectly responsible for many of the powered individuals running around, that ship has sailed (and wasn't ever ironclad anyway)- radiation, alien genetics, passing gods or whatever. Bring it all on.

---
Hmm. All that gets me thinking about the years of fake outs and teases, the ultimate fourth dimensional chess move after all these years is the actual Fenris Twins showing up and they turn out to be Cap's kids (and mutants) from another reality and nonsense rejuvenation ensues to get Cap back in the game to take them down. Because that's storytelling. Or at least, storytelling on alternate realities.

Because honestly that doesn't even get near the bottom of the well in how silly this can get.
[The silliest being the Jean Bomb (tm), something that actually turned up in an issue of X-men in the hands of alien invaders- a genetic bomb guaranteed to destroy relationships and bonds, even the bonds of reality itself, their last ditch super weapon when they were defeated). Havoc blew it up, iirc.

Voss wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So the writers of Endgame (who also wrote the Cap trilogy) have confirmed in interviews that Cap was always meant to go back and be Peggy's husband and have 2 kids with her.
Pretty sure that confirms Old Cap was always in the MCU.

-

No?

For one, the writers and directors have disagreed over 'what means what' in interviews over a lot of things, including the time/reality travel. So its less 'confirmed' and more 'the opinion of one voice among several.'

For two, having kids doesn't at all suggest which reality they're in. Nor is either a barrier to a plot just having them show up- this is Marvel after all: future, past and alternate universe children are a long and tedious plot point.

Even acknowledging that it's just the writers "opinion", the point was that they were always planning Cap's time-travel back to be with Peggy. That's one of the reasons we never see Peggy's husband in the photos with her kids in Winter Soldier, or hear his name.

But as I've said previously, and no one has yet refuted, Old Cap HAS to be in the main MCU timeline based solely on it being the only one in 14+million that doesn't involve Thanos winning. Dr. Strange saw 14+million potential timelines play out. The point of Cap returning the stones to their respective times/places was to prevent those timelines existing.
Old Cap also didn't use the machine to return to the lakeside, so by the movies rules alone, Old Cap was there all along and couldn't have come from any other timeline.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Two kids?

Any hints of who they might be and/or if the benefits of the Super Soldier Serum is also somehow passed on to them?

the writers hinted at that, but were cryptic about it. Basically his kids would be in the 60s, so it would be Caps grand kids showing up with powers if at all

Maybe?

I thought the Super Soldier Serum slowed aging too?

Or was that the somewhat confusingly named Infinity Formula that Nick Fury (comic book version) used to take?

Either way, I'd love for them to follow that thread and show us what's what - even if it is 'just' his grandkids!

Threadomancy, as it’s now out on home media.

Had a chance to watch it, and now enjoying the director’s commentary and other extras.

In terms of paradoxes.....the Loki one still stands out.

But then, that’s assuming nobody takes steps to track him down. I mean, there’s nothing preventing the Avengers from time travelling again, as it’s not powered by Infinity stones.

So we could see this addressed in the TV show. Or even see Loki learn a little something, and decide to go back to where he left in the end.

Oh, it’s also confirmed in the commentary The Ancient One does take Banner’s word for it, as she still couldn’t see beyond her own death (Strange technically could of course, as five years after death he stops being ded).

Super dumb question after I watched again.

The Soul Stone has to be traded for soul. When Cap takes it back to Red Skull, does Red Skull have to give him a soul in return?

 Souleater wrote:
Super dumb question after I watched again.

The Soul Stone has to be traded for soul. When Cap takes it back to Red Skull, does Red Skull have to give him a soul in return?

No, i get that he can't ask for Gahmora or Natasha back.

I was just wondering if Red Skull had to find a soul to give to Cap when he returns the Soul Stone.

That would require the movie having coherent logic or sense to it.

And considering the directors and the writers disagree on a major plot point of the movies ending... I don't think that's going to be a thing...

Well, we don't know.

Cap is likely to remain somewhat tight lipped about the whole thing - again, ripples in ponds.

 Compel wrote:
That would require the movie having coherent logic or sense to it.

And considering the directors and the writers disagree on a major plot point of the movies ending... I don't think that's going to be a thing...

Please, more detail here!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Compel wrote:
That would require the movie having coherent logic or sense to it.

And considering the directors and the writers disagree on a major plot point of the movies ending... I don't think that's going to be a thing...

Please, more detail here!

I think he's referring to the writers stating the OldCap was ALWAYS meant to come back a spend a life with Peggy in the MCU prime timeline, while the Directors have stated that OldCap lived out his life in another timeline, then hopped back over to the main one to give Sam the shield.

Personally, I agree with the writers for 2 reasons:
A) the not only wrote the script, but the script for Winter Soldier, which has many clues that Old Cap was in the background already and
B) MOST IMPORTANTLY Cap went back to return the stones to "clip the branches" and remove all other timelines created without the stones, presumably the 14+million ones that Dr Strange saw in Infinity War.
If Old Cap wasn't in the MCU prime timeline, then he MUST have been in one of those 14mil timelines in which Thanos wins. And I highly doubt that he would let one of those timelines exist (as that was the friggin' POINT on returning the stones)

Ergo, Cap MUST have lived out his life in the main MCU timeline this entire time, despite the Directors' opinions otherwise. An opinion, btw, which I feel is only there so that it doesn't "tarnish" Caps character not trying to change things he knew were happening (Hydra infiltrating Shield, Tony's parents being killed, etc). And if that is the reason they don't want him in the main MCU timeline, I think that's silly. Cap NOT preventing those things is 100% within his character. He is making the sacrifice of NOT being the hero so that the timeline proceeds as it is supposed to.

-

Cap isn't going to preemptively stop Hydra (who eventually fail anyway) when it would risk restoring the 50% across the universe.

Yup.

Cap knows how bad things get. He also, broadly, knows how they got there.

See my comment above about him preventing 9/11 (and how easy that would be, given we know where the perps parked their car).

Do that? No war in Afghanistan. Tony Stark doesn't get taken prisoner, no Iron Man as a result.

So yes, you stop a single terrorist atrocity - but nothing else. And you only risk making everything far, far worse - because you've started removing central pieces.

Cap was always going to return to the past and Peggy in the same way that Luke and Leia were always planned to be brother and sister.

I just got my blue ray...

And realized my blue ray player is still in a crate somewhere in the Atlantic.

At any point do they talk about the world after the snap. We see some shots of 100s of ships docked off of Liberty Island, a tent city outside Shea Stadium, abandoned cars, piles of trash etc but I couldn't get a real handle on how the world was. I'm guessing the idea was that after the snap everyone just sort of gave up on life?

The only new place we see is the memorial in San Francisco that Ant Man visits.

I remember even at the time of Winter Soldier thinking that they went out of their way to hide the identity of Peggy's husband and that it felt like a real possibility they wanted to somehow roll Cap's story back there. The main reason it didn't feel likely was just that at that point the franchise was still keeping its feet fairly grounded and time travel didn't seem like a plot element they would go with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I just got my blue ray...

And realized my blue ray player is still in a crate somewhere in the Atlantic.

At any point do they talk about the world after the snap. We see some shots of 100s of ships docked off of Liberty Island, a tent city outside Shea Stadium, abandoned cars, piles of trash etc but I couldn't get a real handle on how the world was. I'm guessing the idea was that after the snap everyone just sort of gave up on life?

The only new place we see is the memorial in San Francisco that Ant Man visits.

The impression I got was that the world keeps going, but there's a lot of empty places and everyone is dealing with the loss of someone important to them and I'm sure more than a little survivors guilt. There are a lot of things we see abandoned because they were built to support a population that's not there anymore. Houses for families that are gone, half the ships either don't have crews or aren't needed because there's less to produce and ship. The places we see like the neighborhood in San Francisco and the streets of Tokyo(?); just relatively empty with a lot of abandoned maintenance work.