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BMW make their i3 from carbon fibre produced in a factory operating on solar power. The interior trim is made of bamboo. The chassis is aluminium. The batteries are designed to be removed, recycled and replaced at end of life.
They've probably go some way to go with the electronic parts, but considering a modern smart phone carries more computer power than the entire world had 50 years ago, modern cars don't need heaps of printed circuit boards and so on, despite having a lot more on board processing than even 10 years ago.
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
To address the inner quote first: EV flight of any real commercial impact is a long LOOOOOONG way off. . . . Like, some folks at Airbus were telling my group a couple weeks ago that they don't think electric commercial aviation will even be prototyping for another 20-30 years. The problem is the battery size/power/weight ratios.
ATM, among the biggest vehicles I'm seeing in the pipeline is VW's relaunched bus (they're calling it the Buzz IQ or some gak), which is getting the commercial van line done first, with "normal" minivan sales coming in the following model year. . . so we're looking at model years 2021 or 2022 for commercial and then a year later for "civilian" vehicles.
On the Tesla front, the cars themselves may be decent, but gott damm that company can not stay out of its own way. . . They are a rolling case study for MBA programs for decades at this point, and they're almost entirely case studies of how NOT to do things.
2019/04/12 10:42:15
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
To address the inner quote first: EV flight of any real commercial impact is a long LOOOOOONG way off. . . . Like, some folks at Airbus were telling my group a couple weeks ago that they don't think electric commercial aviation will even be prototyping for another 20-30 years. The problem is the battery size/power/weight ratios.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
So just today Tesla made some changes .. they killed the original base model 3 standard range and changed it around and took it off online ordering. So if you order online now the minimum is $39,500 standard range plus, but also they have made Autopilot a standard feature which was a $3000 upgrade before. Also they lowered the cost of their paint jobs a little. I’m pretty sure it was $37500 yesterday, so they are including autopilot for $1000 less that if you would have added it yourself. Now the only upgrade besides cosmetics is the $5000 self driving stuff.
They still will offer the standard range for $35k, just not for online ordering. You have to call them and special order it, and then you will basically just get a SR+ but with a few things disabled in the software. So that’s what they’re sending out to people who ordered the regular standard range model. They said they did this because the SR+ is way outselling everything else, looks like this will make things a lot easier and more streamlined for them to fulfill their orders. Bet most of the base model delays were due to the cloth seats and basic interior it was supposed to have.
They also added an option for leasing now, but if you lease you don’t get the federal tax credit, it goes to the leasing company instead. So that’s not an option for me.
Whats a poll of 1536 people worth out of 25 million? But it wouldn't surprise me for the city folk to push for electric cars, they tried/half succeeded to ban bullbars too. Me and all the country people I talk to don't want them.
Ouze wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote: Probably those 50 degrees summers have a way of influencing thinking about global warming.
That sounds a bit chilly to me, honestly; I would think they would welcome a nice warming.
Well Celsius not fahrenheit, was at 39 couple weeks ago(102f?), though it coming into winter here now anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/12 15:04:39
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.
Necros wrote: So just today Tesla made some changes .. they killed the original base model 3 standard range and changed it around and took it off online ordering. So if you order online now the minimum is $39,500 standard range plus, but also they have made Autopilot a standard feature which was a $3000 upgrade before. Also they lowered the cost of their paint jobs a little. I’m pretty sure it was $37500 yesterday, so they are including autopilot for $1000 less that if you would have added it yourself. Now the only upgrade besides cosmetics is the $5000 self driving stuff.
They still will offer the standard range for $35k, just not for online ordering. You have to call them and special order it, and then you will basically just get a SR+ but with a few things disabled in the software. So that’s what they’re sending out to people who ordered the regular standard range model. They said they did this because the SR+ is way outselling everything else, looks like this will make things a lot easier and more streamlined for them to fulfill their orders. Bet most of the base model delays were due to the cloth seats and basic interior it was supposed to have.
They also added an option for leasing now, but if you lease you don’t get the federal tax credit, it goes to the leasing company instead. So that’s not an option for me.
Thats a pretty good deal, if all they are doing for the $35K one is software limiting the range you are actually getting a much better car. You get the (fake, they call it vegan) leather interior, the premium sound system and the power of the larger battery. What would be nice if they later let you remove range limit for a reasonable charge.
Also they announced they are starting to lease them, at the end of the lease you have to turn in the cars as they are going to use them for their fleet of autonomous ride sharing cars. Is autonomous ride sharing only 3 years away?..........I have my doubts but that would be impressive.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Even though I buy a new car every 3-4 years, I always finance. I like the idea of a lease where you can just turn it in and get a new one, but I don't like being told I can only drive a certain amt of miles and friends have had horror stories about how much they charge you for the slightest scratch when you turn it in. I'm too messy. But.. a 3 year 15k mile lease is a lot cheaper than a loan, monthly payment wise.
Seems weird that they wouldn't let you keep the car though, like what if you really really wanted to?
Oh one bad thing about the lease is I read that you don't get the tax credit if you lease, only if you buy
Kilkrazy wrote: BMW make their i3 from carbon fibre produced in a factory operating on solar power. The interior trim is made of bamboo. The chassis is aluminium. The batteries are designed to be removed, recycled and replaced at end of life.
They've probably go some way to go with the electronic parts, but considering a modern smart phone carries more computer power than the entire world had 50 years ago, modern cars don't need heaps of printed circuit boards and so on, despite having a lot more on board processing than even 10 years ago.
TLDR, they're predicting that the costs of batteries is getting cheaper and cheaper and soon EV prices will be getting much closer to gas car prices in the next few years. I feel like it'll be the other way around, gas car prices will keep climbing, maybe they'll meet in the middle.
I like the idea of cheaper EVs but personally, if batteries are getting cheaper, I think I'd rather instead of lowering the price of the car they might be better off adding more cells to increase the battery sizes and the car's range.
Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
I'm all up for electric cars, and I can probably handle fairly-short ranges and charge times.
If the price of batteries is going to rise as technology keeps pace, we should be OK.
Skinnereal wrote: Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
I'm all up for electric cars, and I can probably handle fairly-short ranges and charge times.
If the price of batteries is going to rise as technology keeps pace, we should be OK.
Don't know how it works 100%, but I was under the impression that even if there wasn't a lot of that stuff left, the batteries can be recycled using way less natural resources in the future for newer cars.. unlike gas that just gets burned up and turned into exhaust and then gone for good
Skinnereal wrote: Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
It's actually the electric motors that use a lot of rare earths, not the batteries.
Skinnereal wrote: Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
It's actually the electric motors that use a lot of rare earths, not the batteries.
Maybe, I don't know about other brands, but Tesla doesnt really use them in their motors much. They have two basic motor designs and neither if them use much of the exotic materials.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Actually I read an article recently, that basically said that the battery production definitely isn't good for the environment, and comparing a brand new EV to a brand new ICE, the ICE is better. But, over the course of 5 years of ownership, and both cars running the same amount of miles the emissions from the ICE will double the environmental impact of the EV's battery. They break even at around the 2 year mark and then it just gets worse from there. I dunno which is true and which isn't, I think at the end of the day it just gets down to what you like driving more and is more convenient for you.
Skinnereal wrote: Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
It's actually the electric motors that use a lot of rare earths, not the batteries.
Maybe, I don't know about other brands, but Tesla doesnt really use them in their motors much. They have two basic motor designs and neither if them use much of the exotic materials.
Tesla moved to permanent magnet motors with the model 3, and the S and X new powerplant will no longer be induction with the last powerplant tinkering, too (which just makes sense).
I noticed Tesla just announced they increased the range for new Model S and X's to be up to 370 miles, but only for newer models and the older ones already out there stay the same. That's a nice improvement and should help those slumping sales, but personally I think the price to begin with compared to the Model 3 is just way too high. I'd love a Model X, but I don't think I have enough kidneys to sell to be able to afford a 6 figure car, and then if I did I'd be too scared to drive it anywhere because people are dumb.
Going to see if I can pull the trigger on a Model 3 in May or June, but if I can't and end up missing the deadline for the tax refund, I may just hold off and wait for a Model Y, or the VW hippie van, whichever comes first
Skinnereal wrote: Aren't batteries of this type using up all world stocks of certain materials?
I read that Lithium and Cobalt are becoming scarce, and that is likely to run up costs.
The same as when Tesla put huge batteries in Australia and elsewhere.
It's actually the electric motors that use a lot of rare earths, not the batteries.
Maybe, I don't know about other brands, but Tesla doesnt really use them in their motors much. They have two basic motor designs and neither if them use much of the exotic materials.
Tesla moved to permanent magnet motors with the model 3, and the S and X new powerplant will no longer be induction with the last powerplant tinkering, too (which just makes sense).
Ugh, as usual you are a wealth of missinformation. The new motor does not use lots of rare earth magnets....some yes, but not much. Here is a whole article about it. It would be nice if you backed you assertions first before you made them.
"in lieu of deploying expensive permanent magnets on the rotor, a large magnetic field generated from the stationary portion of the motor (the stator) actually induces an opposing magnetic field on the highly conductive copper rotor. And we know what happens when two opposing magnetic fields interact: they pull toward each other. If you have a magnet sitting on the kitchen table and move another magnet of opposite polarity nearby, the magnet in your hand pulls the other magnet toward it. Likewise when the two opposing magnetic fields generated inside the motor of a Ludicrous Model S P100D interact … the car takes off like a bat out of Hell.
Isn’t science fun?
The reluctance motor is capable of similar magic. However, in this case, the design is not based on two magnetic fields interacting with each. There’s only one magnetic field. How can that be? Well, go back to that kitchen table and replace one of those magnets with a small piece of iron or steel. What happens when you move the remaining magnet toward the metal? The magnet will of course pull the chunk of metal toward itself. Now what if you were to fashion a rotor for an electric motor out of just a refined chunk of steel, but retain the existing electromagnets in the stator? As the electromagnets are turned on and off in just the right sequence, they would coax the steel cylinder to turn. Congratulations, you just designed a reluctance motor! And the fact that the electromagnets are switched on and off in sequence to spin the rotor (as with the induction motor), you have what is termed a Switched Reluctance Machine."
The article about Ice cars being cleaner is complete garbage and has been debunked by many reputable sites.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/04/28 03:30:01
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
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