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Seeking alpha is just a place where people can write articles. You will find both pro and anti any stock articles there (Inc Tesla).
But that's shooting the messenger, the data is hard data, extracted from Tesla's own quarterly reports.
Slice it the way you want but the fact remains Tesla doesn't currently invest more than mature auto companies (as % of revenue) who do post profits year after year.
They did invest at some point in the past (hence your article about infrastructure debt) which means they can't make ends meet servicing the current debt, much less take on another massive pile of the same to fund all those projects you named before.
Meh, Tesla has always been different. Q2 deliveries look promising. That would make it 3 out of 4 quarters with a profit. Elon has a high tolerance for risk and is a long game player. Their stock says it all, even depressed right not at about $200 its way over punching its weight. You either get Teslas vision or you don't. Tesla has never really had problems raising cash because enough people get it. Without Tesla, US auto would be screwed.....where would they buy their offsets from? Bye Bye Hellcats!
So, Q2 deliveries look promising (in the US, they're tanking in Europe, but that's a whole different thing) and Tesla is looking at delivery numbers roughly like those of Q4 last year.
Yet, Tesla still guides a loss for Q2 '19 (Elon's words, just 2 days ago at the shareholder meeting).
So at record deliveries, with minimal investment (they're basically running on fumes, their capex doesn't even cover depreciation) and Tesla still can't make money.
Those are the signs of a structurally unprofitable manufacturer, and no magic robotaxi or mythical future model will change that.
Re: China factory, the reason why Tesla has been allowed to make a factory with no local partner is this one:
The Chinese are betting Tesla builds them a fancy new tech factory they will repo when they fail to pay the (Chinese) banks. By all accounts this is a very abnormal credit for PPE, which has to be repaid in just one year so we'll see it very soon.
2019/06/13 08:02:22
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Cool, look I Said EVs are good, Teslas are the best of the bunch, and are currently the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family.
Funny that this quote comes in a comment bemoaning the amount of misinformation in this thread. Teslas are in no way the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. The e-Niro, Kona and I-Pace all have comparable ranges to a Tesla, compete on price (in the case of the first two actually beat any Tesla on price by a significant degree, at least in the UK) and are practical cars in terms of space and comfort. The idea that only Tesla produce practical EVs is either laughably biased or hugely misinformed.
Emphasis mine. That's what you're arguing against here. Despite Andrew's requests for facts and sources, your facts and sources are either too anecdotal or too biased to be proof, while his will be accurate and objecTESLA, which is Tesla's new better than objective truth.
Personally, I want to hear more about this using the car as a power source. Living in Florida, every few years we do lose power- if one had a solar rig on your house, could it be used to charge the car during the day, and then use the car's battery to run the home during the night? I realize it's not really what it's intended for, but in the aftermath of a hurricane you're not driving anywhere.
Now that is a very cool secondary benefit to EVs I had not heard of before!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/13 09:42:39
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Porto Santo Island has begun testing a scheme in which the batteries in electric vehicles are charged by solar power during the day but at night return spare energy to the grid to power people's homes.
Some experts say this form of energy storage could become a global trend.
That'll be the same story Killkrazy mentioned on page 16, before the latest installment of the TESLA! show.
In general, using old EV batteries for domestic storage has been sugegsted previously. IIRC such schemes haven't met expectations yet because EV batteries are proving to last longer than was initially predicted, so there isn't the stock of degraded batteries that was originally assumed.
2019/06/13 13:17:15
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
1. He's claiming you have a financial interest in making Tesla look bad. Essentially he says you're arguing with unclean hands. Or
2. He think's you're short and doesn't like short people. This is dangerous. My wife is short. My wife drives a large vehicle. My wife is known to not be concerned about the things she hits (fences, buildings, people who call her short...). Every time I start humming "short people got no reason to live" I suddenly run into something from behind and wake up with a bad headache. Like this weekend when I complained about supper being late and woke up being thrown out of an airplane.
Thank you on the battery info.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/13 13:24:28
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2019/06/13 17:07:59
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
1. He's claiming you have a financial interest in making Tesla look bad. Essentially he says you're arguing with unclean hands. Or
2. He think's you're short and doesn't like short people. This is dangerous. My wife is short. My wife drives a large vehicle. My wife is known to not be concerned about the things she hits (fences, buildings, people who call her short...). Every time I start humming "short people got no reason to live" I suddenly run into something from behind and wake up with a bad headache. Like this weekend when I complained about supper being late and woke up being thrown out of an airplane.
Thank you on the battery info.
I was more concerned that it was a "short bus" reference. I was preparing my documentation...
Ensis Ferrae wrote: GM has been in China longer than you think there. . . to quote someone in this thread, "thanks for playing though"\
Yes I know, how that working out for them https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/business/gm-oshawa-plant/index.html......Maybe they can teach the Chinese how to take a Taxpayer Bailout! Gm at one time Dominated global car sales.....then they sucked so bad they made WW2 pacific veterans buy Japanese Cars! China already knows how to make crappy cars that nobody wants to buy. Good job! Gm can also thank Tesla for the carbon credits, they wouldn't even be able to make most of their higher end gas guzzeler cars without the carbon credits.
Funny that this quote comes in a comment bemoaning the amount of misinformation in this thread. Teslas are in no way the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. The e-Niro, Kona and I-Pace all have comparable ranges to a Tesla, compete on price (in the case of the first two actually beat any Tesla on price by a significant degree, at least in the UK) and are practical cars in terms of space and comfort. The idea that only Tesla produce practical EVs is either laughably biased or hugely misinformed.
Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers) than it will for other manufacturers to catch up to Tesla Technology.
Lots of other EVs out there are great, but they are niche cars. They are urban grocery getters and secondary cars. They do not fulfill the need to replace ICE cars 100% of the time. They work great about 90% of the time for most drivers, but thats not 99.9% of the time for 99.9% of drivers.....that 9% is a world difference. But look that not an indictment of other EVs they are great for what they are deigned to be which is offering a product that doesn't replace their companies core competency which is ICE cars. Tesla doesn't have this hangup, they went full in on EVs while everyone else is still dipping their toes.
a company who's entire business model is based on tax credits should not talk about bailouts...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2019/06/13 22:42:47
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Seeking alpha is just a place where people can write articles. You will find both pro and anti any stock articles there (Inc Tesla).
But that's shooting the messenger, the data is hard data, extracted from Tesla's own quarterly reports.
Slice it the way you want but the fact remains Tesla doesn't currently invest more than mature auto companies (as % of revenue) who do post profits year after year.
They did invest at some point in the past (hence your article about infrastructure debt) which means they can't make ends meet servicing the current debt, much less take on another massive pile of the same to fund all those projects you named before.
Meh, Tesla has always been different. Q2 deliveries look promising. That would make it 3 out of 4 quarters with a profit. Elon has a high tolerance for risk and is a long game player. Their stock says it all, even depressed right not at about $200 its way over punching its weight. You either get Teslas vision or you don't. Tesla has never really had problems raising cash because enough people get it. Without Tesla, US auto would be screwed.....where would they buy their offsets from? Bye Bye Hellcats!
So, Q2 deliveries look promising (in the US, they're tanking in Europe, but that's a whole different thing) and Tesla is looking at delivery numbers roughly like those of Q4 last year.
Yet, Tesla still guides a loss for Q2 '19 (Elon's words, just 2 days ago at the shareholder meeting).
So at record deliveries, with minimal investment (they're basically running on fumes, their capex doesn't even cover depreciation) and Tesla still can't make money.
Those are the signs of a structurally unprofitable manufacturer, and no magic robotaxi or mythical future model will change that.
Re: China factory, the reason why Tesla has been allowed to make a factory with no local partner is this one:
The Chinese are betting Tesla builds them a fancy new tech factory they will repo when they fail to pay the (Chinese) banks. By all accounts this is a very abnormal credit for PPE, which has to be repaid in just one year so we'll see it very soon.
Very Chinese. Debts on secured assets already gained them least 1-2 ports in Africa and 1-2 controlling stakes in international airports there.
Using greed to get what they want long term.
No force. All legal. And its not there fault as merely enforcing the contract you agreed to.
The Russians debt for help got them a major 50 year + valubal commercial sole licence for Tartorus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/13 22:45:24
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Andrew1975 wrote:Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers) than it will for other manufacturers to catch up to Tesla Technology.
Lots of other EVs out there are great, but they are niche cars. They are urban grocery getters and secondary cars. They do not fulfill the need to replace ICE cars 100% of the time. They work great about 90% of the time for most drivers, but thats not 99.9% of the time for 99.9% of drivers.....that 9% is a world difference. But look that not an indictment of other EVs they are great for what they are deigned to be which is offering a product that doesn't replace their companies core competency which is ICE cars. Tesla doesn't have this hangup, they went full in on EVs while everyone else is still dipping their toes.
Maybe the problem here is that you basing your "range needs" on US driving habits and not on European habits (the person you replied to in the second part of your post being from the UK)? Just blindly parroting Tesla talking points and ignoring the actual issue doesn't make a good argument. What you describe as niche cars could be just regular cars over here :/
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Trim and detail is one small issue on the grand scheme of things. What Tesla needs to address right now is reliability and service.
That's why "inferior" cars like the etron or ipace outsell the model S and X combined in countries like Norway, the Netherlands, Germany, etc.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production!
No it's not. Volvo is generally regarded as having the best semi autonomous tech and to be the closest to being self driving. Tesla are close, and may well again be better with the next update, but all the big manufactures are rolling out self driving tech, but the general feeling is they are much more careful than Tesla. The accidents people have had in Tesla's doing dumb things the big guys would not be able to hand wave away.
Battery tech:
2017 Ford Focus Electric - 26,39 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q210 (22 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 25,3 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q90 (41 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 24,84 kWh/100 miles
2016 Ford Focus Electric - 24,78 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 75D - 24,63 kWh/100 miles
2016 Nissan Leaf (24 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Nissan Leaf (30 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 60D - 23,72 kWh/100 miles
2017 Kia Soul EV - 23,66 kWh/100 miles
Again, their efficiency is about the same as anyone else. Bigger batteries does not mean better tech.
And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Yes, oddly if I were to spend £75,000 on a large 4 door family car I expect the level of trim and detail to be the same quality as the competition.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production!
No it's not. Volvo is generally regarded as having the best semi autonomous tech and to be the closest to being self driving. Tesla are close, and may well again be better with the next update, but all the big manufactures are rolling out self driving tech, but the general feeling is they are much more careful than Tesla. The accidents people have had in Tesla's doing dumb things the big guys would not be able to hand wave away.
Battery tech:
2017 Ford Focus Electric - 26,39 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q210 (22 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 25,3 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q90 (41 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 24,84 kWh/100 miles
2016 Ford Focus Electric - 24,78 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 75D - 24,63 kWh/100 miles
2016 Nissan Leaf (24 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Nissan Leaf (30 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 60D - 23,72 kWh/100 miles
2017 Kia Soul EV - 23,66 kWh/100 miles
Again, their efficiency is about the same as anyone else. Bigger batteries does not mean better tech.
And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Yes, oddly if I were to spend £75,000 on a large 4 door family car I expect the level of trim and detail to be the same quality as the competition.
75k puts it into luxury German and such price band.
Learger seats, air con, bells, whistle s and xeon head lights etc as standard.
At that price +brand new. I'm expecting a high end car. You buy at that level to have a good car, compatition is tight with all the others too.
In all areas.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: GM has been in China longer than you think there. . . to quote someone in this thread, "thanks for playing though"\
Yes I know, how that working out for them https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/business/gm-oshawa-plant/index.html......Maybe they can teach the Chinese how to take a Taxpayer Bailout! Gm at one time Dominated global car sales.....then they sucked so bad they made WW2 pacific veterans buy Japanese Cars! China already knows how to make crappy cars that nobody wants to buy. Good job! Gm can also thank Tesla for the carbon credits, they wouldn't even be able to make most of their higher end gas guzzeler cars without the carbon credits.
Funny that this quote comes in a comment bemoaning the amount of misinformation in this thread. Teslas are in no way the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. The e-Niro, Kona and I-Pace all have comparable ranges to a Tesla, compete on price (in the case of the first two actually beat any Tesla on price by a significant degree, at least in the UK) and are practical cars in terms of space and comfort. The idea that only Tesla produce practical EVs is either laughably biased or hugely misinformed.
Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
...
I think you're wrong. Simply in that most people don't need a car that can go 300 miles.
Everyone's got cars that can go 250-300 miles on one tank of fuel, but they hardly ever use that capability.
Reasons:Most people don't do very long trips often. I've done only one trip that long in the past 10 years. (Driving to Scotland for a wedding.) I've done about five trips over 100 miles.
Another reason: People on such long trips have to stop every so often for a wee and a coffee. In those breaks they could charge an EV.
I commute 50 miles a day though. An EV which could reliably do over 100 miles without a charge would be ideal for me and lots of ordinary people with similar lifestyles.
The main barrier is the cost. The secondary barrier is the availability of charging stations. Both these barriers are getting lower.
Funny that this quote comes in a comment bemoaning the amount of misinformation in this thread. Teslas are in no way the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. The e-Niro, Kona and I-Pace all have comparable ranges to a Tesla, compete on price (in the case of the first two actually beat any Tesla on price by a significant degree, at least in the UK) and are practical cars in terms of space and comfort. The idea that only Tesla produce practical EVs is either laughably biased or hugely misinformed.
Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
300 miles is completely unnecessary for most people's purposes, especially in Europe. We're looking at cars with around 150-160 mile range, which is absolutely fine for our purposes. Secondly, you're flat-out wrong about the ranges you're quoting for the non-Tesla models I mentioned. They'll all do between 225-250+ miles in real world terms (as tested by various review sites and independent companies, not the manufacturers themselves). So I'll adjust my opinion - your information is both laughably biased and woefully misinformed. I'll also bow out of any future discussion with you on this. Many people here are having some interesting discussions about EVs in today's market but you're basically contributing nothing to the thread at this point, IMO.
I would use a car with a range of 300 miles. That is usually a week or two of commuting.
But, I often manage 200+ miles in a day, and that is just between sites in the same county. Having to look up charging sites between offices would really slow me down, what with having to lug kit from the car into the office.
There is only one car park with charging points near my main office, for roughly the whole town.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/17 09:08:35
Kilkrazy wrote: Would you use a car with a range of 50 miles which you have to stop to refuel every day?
Would you use a car with a range of 100 miles which you never had to stop to refuel because it happens while you're asleep?
Range aside. The buy in cost is steep.
A basic Tesala, not eben the long range or real add ons starts at 38 thousand to 70k. A BMW electric is similar costs basic sans extras and upgrades.
Compared to ICE cars, that's a fair waxk. Sure long term savings but how many of us have that kind of money to drop on a car?
There's a pay wall that prevents mass adoption right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/17 19:57:53
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Kilkrazy wrote: Would you use a car with a range of 50 miles which you have to stop to refuel every day?
Would you use a car with a range of 100 miles which you never had to stop to refuel because it happens while you're asleep?
No, and No.
50 Miles wouldn't get me to work and back home, therefore it is useless to me. 100 would work some days, but lord forbid I had to run errands on the way home, or go to Ft Benning, Stewart or Bragg (from Ft Gordon) for the day. Neither works for me. Hell, my motorcycle has way more range than 100 miles and it still only gets me to and from work twice before I need to gas it up (small fuel tank) so it tends to not get used for work very often.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/17 22:35:58
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Frazzled wrote: a company who's entire business model is based on tax credits should not talk about bailouts...
Thats a pretty funny statement Frazzled. 1. Tesla is not the only company that gets tax credits, anyone who makes EVs does, Tesla has just sold the most and is running out of credits. 2 Other manufacturers get other huge government incentives and kickbacks that make their cars and use affordable that Tesla doesn't get though, Hell the only reason gas is affordable is because oil is the most subsidized product on the planet....and thats direct subsidy. Besides that The US has spent tens of trillions of dollars securing oil. Gasoline cars are a huge expense to the tax payers.
As I said before most people could get through their daily commute with 100 miles......they just have to do something else for long trips. Which most people don't want to have to buy or rent a second car for those trips. They just buy a capable car in the first place. This massively effects EV sales as range anxiety is a thing....there is a reason you don't see many ICE cars that get less than 300 on a tank of gas. People don't want to compromise or buy a consolation prize, thats just how it works. For EVs to truly take off they need to be as good or better than ICE cars in most every way.....Teslas accomplish that goal.
Andrew1975 wrote:Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers) than it will for other manufacturers to catch up to Tesla Technology.
Lots of other EVs out there are great, but they are niche cars. They are urban grocery getters and secondary cars. They do not fulfill the need to replace ICE cars 100% of the time. They work great about 90% of the time for most drivers, but thats not 99.9% of the time for 99.9% of drivers.....that 9% is a world difference. But look that not an indictment of other EVs they are great for what they are deigned to be which is offering a product that doesn't replace their companies core competency which is ICE cars. Tesla doesn't have this hangup, they went full in on EVs while everyone else is still dipping their toes.
Maybe the problem here is that you basing your "range needs" on US driving habits and not on European habits (the person you replied to in the second part of your post being from the UK)? Just blindly parroting Tesla talking points and ignoring the actual issue doesn't make a good argument. What you describe as niche cars could be just regular cars over here :/
Is the ICE market in Europe dominated by cars that get less than 300 miles per fill up? If not then I think you have your answer. If 100 mile range cars were great.....then they would be great for ICE cars too. I can't find the numbers for Europe....but I bet its more than 200 miles and closer to 3-400.....but lets go bigger! Globally whats the average range on a car? Do you know....are you curious........The answer by the way is "globally the average cars range is 300-400 miles." However if you look at newer cars lets say produced within the last 10 years globally the average is getting closer to 500 miles. a 2015 Honda CRV will get 520 miles per fill up, thats neither the newest or most fuel efficient car out there....its pretty average. EVs need to be there to successfully replace ICE cars. So its not just a Europe vs America thing...its pretty much a global standard.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Trim and detail is one small issue on the grand scheme of things. What Tesla needs to address right now is reliability and service.
That's why "inferior" cars like the etron or ipace outsell the model S and X combined in countries like Norway, the Netherlands, Germany, etc.
How are they faring against the model 3?.....not so well. Model S and X are wayyyyyyyyy more expensive than either the E-tron or the I-pace.....you need to compare those with the model 3 or the model Y.
Top 5 BEVs (January-May 2019):
Tesla Model 3: ≈26,000 (new)
Renault ZOE: ≈19,400 (up 45.0%)
Nissan LEAF: ≈14,400 (up 3.4%)
BMW i3: ≈12,300 (up 38.6%)
Volkswagen e-Golf: ≈9,200 (up 18.7%)
Model 3 winner winner chicken dinner! Sorry, I pace and Etron didnt even make the list.
Berlin-based automotive industry analyst Matthias Schmidt noted that Tesla sold 19,482 Model 3 in the first quarter, a significant lead over the previous #1 EV in the region, the ubiquitous Renault Zoe, which sold 11,049 units over the same period. This is particularly impressive for the Model 3, as it was only available in the market since February, and it was more than twice, or (at times) even three times the cost of the best-selling Zoe. The Nissan Leaf, a veteran in the mainstream EV market, bowed down to the Model 3 as well, selling 10,315 in the first quarter.
The Model 3’s competitors in the premium electric vehicle segment were farther off. The Jaguar I-PACE, which recently received the World Car of the Year award, was 7th place in Europe’s sales, selling 3,012 units in Q1. The Audi e-tron, also a much-hyped vehicle that was, at one time, considered as a potential “Tesla Killer” by skeptics, sold a rather humble 2,526 units in the first quarter, according to the Berlin-based analyst’s data.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production!
No it's not. Volvo is generally regarded as having the best semi autonomous tech and to be the closest to being self driving. Tesla are close, and may well again be better with the next update, but all the big manufactures are rolling out self driving tech, but the general feeling is they are much more careful than Tesla. The accidents people have had in Tesla's doing dumb things the big guys would not be able to hand wave away.
Battery tech:
2017 Ford Focus Electric - 26,39 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q210 (22 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 25,3 kWh/100 miles
Renault Zoe Q90 (41 kWh battery and 17“ wheels) - 24,84 kWh/100 miles
2016 Ford Focus Electric - 24,78 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 75D - 24,63 kWh/100 miles
2016 Nissan Leaf (24 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Nissan Leaf (30 kWh battery) - 24,14 kWh/100 miles
2017 Tesla Model S 60D - 23,72 kWh/100 miles
2017 Kia Soul EV - 23,66 kWh/100 miles
Again, their efficiency is about the same as anyone else. Bigger batteries does not mean better tech.
And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Yes, oddly if I were to spend £75,000 on a large 4 door family car I expect the level of trim and detail to be the same quality as the competition.
75k puts it into luxury German and such price band.
Learger seats, air con, bells, whistle s and xeon head lights etc as standard.
At that price +brand new. I'm expecting a high end car. You buy at that level to have a good car, compatition is tight with all the others too.
In all areas.
Well, it depends on how you look at it. The model S gets super car speed.....I can show you lots of super cars whose fit and finish are absolute garbage at twice the price of a model S. Show me a car that goes 0-60 in 2.3 seconds and has perfect fit and finish at the same price as a model S....ill wait. Its all about priorities....and now that it appears Tesla has caught up with fit and finish....your arguments wont hold water. Also when you look at long term ownership costs......The Tesla will be far cheaper than similarly priced ICE cars. in fact the longer you own them the better the Teslas numbers get.....but all EVs SHOULD work this way. Its a matter of priorities I guess...for now.
Funny that this quote comes in a comment bemoaning the amount of misinformation in this thread. Teslas are in no way the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. The e-Niro, Kona and I-Pace all have comparable ranges to a Tesla, compete on price (in the case of the first two actually beat any Tesla on price by a significant degree, at least in the UK) and are practical cars in terms of space and comfort. The idea that only Tesla produce practical EVs is either laughably biased or hugely misinformed.
Funny, lets look what it will take to get your average person to switch to EVs. The EV needs to be at least as capable if not more so than currently available ICE cars. Any car without the option to go 300 miles is out as a Primary/Sole car, dou any of the cars you've listed qualify? Nope! They all have a real usuable range of about 200 miles at their peak trim level, which is about what a Model 3 base model provides for less $ than all 3 (Well in most major markets anyway). Thats just not going to make them anything more than a second car. Most everybody makes long road trips here and there....If I have to rent a car for trips.....i'm not buying an one of those EVs.....and neither are most families who can only afford one car.
300 miles is completely unnecessary for most people's purposes, especially in Europe. We're looking at cars with around 150-160 mile range, which is absolutely fine for our purposes. Secondly, you're flat-out wrong about the ranges you're quoting for the non-Tesla models I mentioned. They'll all do between 225-250+ miles in real world terms (as tested by various review sites and independent companies, not the manufacturers themselves). So I'll adjust my opinion - your information is both laughably biased and woefully misinformed. I'll also bow out of any future discussion with you on this. Many people here are having some interesting discussions about EVs in today's market but you're basically contributing nothing to the thread at this point, IMO.
Ok i've already answered that 300-400 miles is the global average range for cars....its there for a good reason. Secondly when an EV gets 250 max range (which by the way neither of them are listed at 250 anywhere)......you are not getting 250 max range. Thats 250 miles of perfect range.....rarely if ever do you get it. 1. you really arent supposed to charge up to 100% except right before a long drive. Unless you want to degrade the battery. 2. You are not supposed to go below 10% unless you again want to start the process of degrading your battery. So perfectly you really only have 80% that is usable. 3. Weather and speed massively affect EV range, on my commute during good weather doing 80 Mph for 80 miles.....I generally use a bit over 100 miles of charge....in the winter that same trip might cost me 150 miles......So when I say those cars really.....honestly have a range of about 200 miles.....its not Biased or uninformed.....its just what it is.....the truth. Numbers mean nothing without context. Sure you might get close to maximum range is you drive like a tart....but who drives like that on long drives? My old Skyactive Mazda 3 had a 13 gallon tank and even driving 80MPH got 35 of the promised 40 MPG.......Electric cars just don't work the same. Again, numbers are meaningless without context.
For instance my Tesla Model 3 is rated at 310 miles. But it stops charging at 278 unless i set it to fully charge....which I rarely do unless I'm planning a long drive. So i can't on a whim really drive 310 miles, like most people can with ICE cars. id have to stop and charge along the way. Also I'm not going to get 310 miles out of it anyway even at full charge because I'm going to be driving at least 80MPH on a freeway if im going 310 miles.....and god forbid its winter......but I have the option to quickly charge it at superchargers (free until august when my six months are up but otherwise) pretty cheaply much cheaper than gas and much cheaper than what I have seen other chargers charging...and faster too. Again I drive a lot, but id be happier if I could routinely get 400 miles out of it......and 200 is just a non starter.
This message was edited 25 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 06:17:55
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Trim and detail is one small issue on the grand scheme of things. What Tesla needs to address right now is reliability and service.
That's why "inferior" cars like the etron or ipace outsell the model S and X combined in countries like Norway, the Netherlands, Germany, etc.
How are they faring against the model 3?.....not so well. Model S and X are wayyyyyyyyy more expensive than either the E-tron or the I-pace.....you need to compare those with the model 3 or the model Y.
Top 5 BEVs (January-May 2019):
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro
New model S in Spain 82K euro
New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro
New Jag iPace 79K euro
I don't think 2-3K is "wayyyyyyyy more expensive" for an 80K car.
That is what you guys don't get. You can harp about panel gaps and paint all you want. The hard fact is that the EV, self driving and battery tech of a 2012 Model S is still better than anything anyone else has on the books much less in production! And thats a 7 year old car now! The Tech is Gold. The New Model S will get 400 miles a charge. It will be far easier for Tesla to get up to the pristine levels of German car trim and detail (that apparently many people expect of all car manufacturers)
Trim and detail is one small issue on the grand scheme of things. What Tesla needs to address right now is reliability and service.
That's why "inferior" cars like the etron or ipace outsell the model S and X combined in countries like Norway, the Netherlands, Germany, etc.
How are they faring against the model 3?.....not so well. Model S and X are wayyyyyyyyy more expensive than either the E-tron or the I-pace.....you need to compare those with the model 3 or the model Y.
Top 5 BEVs (January-May 2019):
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro
New model S in Spain 82K euro
New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro
New Jag iPace 79K euro
I don't think 2-3K is "wayyyyyyyy more expensive" for an 80K car.
After the recent fires, Tesla is OTA'ing a 5% range cut most likely related to the recent model S fires.
Now you know why Tesla doesn't recall. Recalls are expensive and they'd just try to cover it up.
That kinda suxks. So on top of degradation, your down 5% and from above your meant to work in a 80% bracket thus losing your now 25%?
For all the issues the old petrol powered city car has.
I can use a full tank and such.
Going into details I can see why there more a niche car, bar the cost.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Relative to what? Here, they start at £38,000, which is a £9,000 above the average new car price (£28,973). Looking at Autotrader, the cheapest second hand Tesla I can find is a 2014 Model S at £34k. That's £21k above the average used car price (£12,967).
They are expensive cars.
2019/06/20 17:42:34
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro
New model S in Spain 82K euro
New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro
New Jag iPace 79K euro
Nope you just like to Cherry pick as usual. In fact your whole post is deceptive.
New model X US $81-102K But really add ludicrous 20k and FSD is 7K and 1250 destination fee so anywhere between ...so really between 90k and 130k
New model S US $76-97 But really Add ludicrous 20k and FSD is $7K and 1250 destination fee...so really between 85K and 130K
New Model 3 US $35-60K Before FSD of $7000 So really between and 1250 destination fee...so really between 45K and 70K
Model Y is about 10K more than model 3 so 55k and 80K
Audi Eton 75 to 82K
Jag I pace 70K
So we see price wise these two cars compete more with Model X and Y based on price.
However when we look at their performance......WOW do you get a better value with going for a mid range model 3!
However when we get to performance both of them perform more around the level of a model 3 Standard range plus at 240 miles per charge, 140 MPH and 5.3 0 to 60 which comes to 49K total.
.................................................................................................................................I pace ......................................234...........................124...............4.5....................................70K
.................................................................................................................................E tron........................................204...........................124...............5.5...................................82K
Which car is better and cheaper again?
Now onto your Text message....which what even is that...who is it from? How do we authenticate it?......but ill let your spurious as usual evidence slide again.
Its pretty simple its a update issue....it will be addressed and fixed. I bet Audi and Jag are wishing they could fix their cars with an over the air update!
A Tesla spokesperson has stated that the settings for Max Battery Power and Launch Mode were inadvertently removed from some Model S vehicles after a UI update. The electric car maker is currently working on a fix for the issue, and has noted that the updates were not intended to restrict the performance of the affected Model S vehicles. Tesla extends its apologies to electric car owners for the inconvenience resulting from this issue.
Relative to what? Here, they start at £38,000, which is a £9,000 above the average new car price (£28,973). Looking at Autotrader, the cheapest second hand Tesla I can find is a 2014 Model S at £34k. That's £21k above the average used car price (£12,967).
They are expensive cars.
Nice copy paste butcher job....you could use the whole sentence and reference and actually look at the reference material.
Relative to what? Here, they start at £38,000, which is a £9,000 above the average new car price (£28,973). Looking at Autotrader, the cheapest second hand Tesla I can find is a 2014 Model S at £34k. That's £21k above the average used car price (£12,967).
They are expensive cars.
Nice copy paste butcher job....you could use the whole sentence and reference and actually look at the reference material.
But since you can't be bothered to read...here is a sample
Ignoring your needless rudeness (and the fact that I did quote the entire sentence, though not paragraph), the point I'm making is that they're only 'not expensive' if you are very selective in what you compare them to. Relative to other similarly priced vehicles, obviously they're not that expensive, because you're deliberately comparing them to things that make them look affordable. Here, I could buy four Toyota Aygos for the price of a Model 3. In fact, I could buy multiples of most of their current range. I could buy 5 and a half Dacia Sanderos. As it goes, in the UK, a BMW 3 Series can be had for the same money as a Model 3.
Arguing that they're not that expensive because, whilst being significant more expensive than average prices paid for cars in a given territory, they're similar in price to other expensive cars is very silly.
For what it's worth, I'm all for electric cars, like the idea of a Tesla, and would buy one if we could afford the outlay.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 20:54:52
2019/06/20 22:01:18
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive "Oh my god did you see that base model Prius, get the good silverware out Maude.....royalty must be in town."
Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor. You could buy a whole fleet of them and Dacia Sandros.....and you would have spent your money poorly.....they are horrible "cars".
What you want is a Cheap car that you can afford on "The Dole", not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car. They should call it the arugula because thats how appetizing of a car it is. Pow, pow powerwheels. Just buy a Tata Nano already!
Seriously the lengths and depths you people will go........
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 22:39:10
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/06/20 22:26:52
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor. You could buy a whole fleet of them and Dacia Sandros.....and you would have spent your money poorly.....they are horrible "cars".
What you want is a Cheap car that you can afford on "The Dole", not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car. They should call it the arugula because thats how appetizing of a car it is. Pow, pow powerwheels. Just buy a Tata Nano already!
Seriously the lengths and depths you people will go........
Hey lol I drive a Aygo. There a good cheap super mini. Sure there not fastest, best, and they Don, t come with all the toys but mines got me from A-B reliably for the past 2-3years a without much problems.
I admit there not most pretty, abit of a cube and underpowered but it's cheap, economical and most of my roads I drive are max 60mph so it's fine for its job.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
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