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2019/06/20 22:35:00
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor.
What you want is a Cheap car, not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car.
Just you crack on with being impolite, then. Now with the sneering snobbishness bonus.
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'BUY in price'? Here, new Series 3s and new Model 3s are within a few hundred pounds of one another.
The point, as above, is that you're comparing vehicles that, in this territory, are considered expensive. You don't think they're expensive, and want to dismiss the fact that there are cars out there that are a fraction of the price because you don't think they're worthy of being called cars but they exist. Given that these options are available, however, it is hard to argue that vehicles costing several times as much, that are 25% more than the average new car, 10k more than the average UK salary, and about double the average Scottish salary, are not expensive.
They are expensive cars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/20 22:39:17
2019/06/20 22:42:28
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor. You could buy a whole fleet of them and Dacia Sandros.....and you would have spent your money poorly.....they are horrible "cars".
What you want is a Cheap car that you can afford on "The Dole", not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car. They should call it the arugula because thats how appetizing of a car it is. Pow, pow powerwheels. Just buy a Tata Nano already!
Seriously the lengths and depths you people will go........
Hey lol I drive a Aygo. There a good cheap super mini. Sure there not fastest, best, and they Don, t come with all the toys but mines got me from A-B reliably for the past 2-3years a without much problems.
I admit there not most pretty, abit of a cube and underpowered but it's cheap, economical and most of my roads I drive are max 60mph so it's fine for its job.
Look, I'm sure it has its uses. I used to drive a Ford Festiva....wait no it was the model before that a Fiesta. Let me tell you it was no Fiesta to drive when I was a kid. But lets compare apples to apples is all I'm saying. Not apples to .......raisins.
And I bet it was bought used and you got a killer deal on it....because the resale value on micro cars is gak!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 22:44:20
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/06/20 23:08:11
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor. You could buy a whole fleet of them and Dacia Sandros.....and you would have spent your money poorly.....they are horrible "cars".
What you want is a Cheap car that you can afford on "The Dole", not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car. They should call it the arugula because thats how appetizing of a car it is. Pow, pow powerwheels. Just buy a Tata Nano already!
Seriously the lengths and depths you people will go........
Hey lol I drive a Aygo. There a good cheap super mini. Sure there not fastest, best, and they Don, t come with all the toys but mines got me from A-B reliably for the past 2-3years a without much problems.
I admit there not most pretty, abit of a cube and underpowered but it's cheap, economical and most of my roads I drive are max 60mph so it's fine for its job.
Look, I'm sure it has its uses. I used to drive a Ford Festiva....wait no it was the model before that a Fiesta. Let me tell you it was no Fiesta to drive when I was a kid. But lets compare apples to apples is all I'm saying. Not apples to .......raisins.
And I bet it was bought used and you got a killer deal on it....because the resale value on micro cars is gak!
Yep... Yes. Second hand, 100k miles on it or near about. But got air con, clean mot, engine runs nice and theres no rust warnings. Oils clean as clean. Works fine for a max 25 ish mile or so commute per day. Bout 30-40 minutes, depending on bad delays.
Cost me about 2 grand all in, with insurance and taxes, etc.
Cars imaiculate inside mostly, and only a repaired scratch on bumper from me and a wall getting too close. Just cut some groves on the plastic I filleted, sanded and sprayed.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2019/06/21 02:33:19
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor.
What you want is a Cheap car, not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car.
Just you crack on with being impolite, then. Now with the sneering snobbishness bonus.
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'BUY in price'? Here, new Series 3s and new Model 3s are within a few hundred pounds of one another.
The point, as above, is that you're comparing vehicles that, in this territory, are considered expensive. You don't think they're expensive, and want to dismiss the fact that there are cars out there that are a fraction of the price because you don't think they're worthy of being called cars but they exist. Given that these options are available, however, it is hard to argue that vehicles costing several times as much, that are 25% more than the average new car, 10k more than the average UK salary, and about double the average Scottish salary, are not expensive.
They are expensive cars.
Yeah thats how I get when I feel someone is willfully being dishonest in their arguments. I find willful dishonesty rude and a return it in kind! You are trying to make it sound like bargain bin Econoboxes are "affordable", no they are cheap. You are not making a honest comparison based on easily available data. You conveniently cut my quotes to fit your agenda and don't even bother reading what I write or post before making a blatantly apples to oranges comparison. Then you accuse me of being rude, or snobbish.....again you are playing at being daft?
Not long term they are not. The BMW will be much more expensive to maintain and fuel. A base M3 is $67k I've seen top end ones around $85K. Thats more than a top end Model 3 performance at $60K
A standard range Model 3 will be cheaper than a Pruis over the long term and be a much better car.
But apparently you believe a base Prius is expensive....I mean, thats an opinion, thats one point of view. It would generally be considered uninformed....but here let me shed some light.
"The analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for light vehicles in the United States was $37,577 in December 2018" Thats essentially what a base model 3 costs. So unless you consider average expensive.....then its average. Both cars you mentioned are again not great cars, sure they work for some people, but they are cheap econobox cars. No Teslas are not cheap.....but they aren't all expensive, and in the long term you are getting a cheaper cost of ownership of a more capable car then comparatively priced cars.
Fact is that your cheap cars do not provide the utility that most people seek in buying a car. If they did they would sell well and retain their value.....they do not. Small, no storage room, short range, low speed, cramped, low on features. They are cheap for a reason. And as we know most cheap things are just that...Cheap, cheaply built, and in the long run rarely worth what was actually paid for them. Thats why when you sell them you take a bath on them! But don't try to confuse cheap with affordable. Just because Ford named a car the Aspire......doesn't mean anyone aspired to own one.....and everyone called them the Assfire.
Descent cars have always cost about a year of an average persons labor! Good cars cost a bit more! Cars now are much more capable, safer and complex than ever before its why they cost more working hours. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro
New model S in Spain 82K euro
New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro
New Jag iPace 79K euro
Nope you just like to Cherry pick as usual. In fact your whole post is deceptive.
New model X US $81-102K But really add ludicrous 20k and FSD is 7K and 1250 destination fee so anywhere between ...so really between 90k and 130k
New model S US $76-97 But really Add ludicrous 20k and FSD is $7K and 1250 destination fee...so really between 85K and 130K
New Model 3 US $35-60K Before FSD of $7000 So really between and 1250 destination fee...so really between 45K and 70K
Model Y is about 10K more than model 3 so 55k and 80K
.
And both the e-tron and jag can go well north of 100K if you start piling up stuff. Congratulations, you have discovered options. I quoted the base price on each car so the comparison stands.
See, 116K euro and I didn't even have to add that many things.
You can easily get a 50K+ Nissan leaf which is the car that compares to the model 3.
A Tesla spokesperson has stated that the settings for Max Battery Power and Launch Mode were inadvertently removed from some Model S vehicles after a UI update. The electric car maker is currently working on a fix for the issue, and has noted that the updates were not intended to restrict the performance of the affected Model S vehicles. Tesla extends its apologies to electric car owners for the inconvenience resulting from this issue.
Not the same instance you're quoting from the May update. Review the TMC thread I posted before and you'll see it's a brand new thing.
This is strictly battery-capacity related, and right after the China fires, and Tesla service is on record telling owners they're cutting their battery capacity "to prolong the life of the battery".
There's a class action brewing there. Either Tesla has to compensate for lack of range/charging speed or they have to acknowledge their tech has dangerously traded performance for safety.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 07:59:22
2019/06/21 07:45:02
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor.
What you want is a Cheap car, not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car.
Just you crack on with being impolite, then. Now with the sneering snobbishness bonus.
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'BUY in price'? Here, new Series 3s and new Model 3s are within a few hundred pounds of one another.
The point, as above, is that you're comparing vehicles that, in this territory, are considered expensive. You don't think they're expensive, and want to dismiss the fact that there are cars out there that are a fraction of the price because you don't think they're worthy of being called cars but they exist. Given that these options are available, however, it is hard to argue that vehicles costing several times as much, that are 25% more than the average new car, 10k more than the average UK salary, and about double the average Scottish salary, are not expensive.
They are expensive cars.
Yeah thats how I get when I feel someone is willfully being dishonest in their arguments. I find willful dishonesty rude and a return it in kind!
I'm not being dishonest, I just recognise that determining whether something is expensive (rather than value for money) requires situating a product in the full spectrum of available options, not just similarly priced examples.
You are trying to make it sound like bargain bin Econoboxes are "affordable", no they are cheap. You are not making a honest comparison based on easily available data. You conveniently cut my quotes to fit your agenda and don't even bother reading what I write or post before making a blatantly apples to oranges comparison. Then you accuse me of being rude, or snobbish.....again you are playing at being daft?
Not long term they are not. The BMW will be much more expensive to maintain and fuel. A base M3 is $67k I've seen top end ones around $85K. Thats more than a top end Model 3 performance at $60K
A standard range Model 3 will be cheaper than a Pruis over the long term and be a much better car.
The BMW (from £28,350, turns out I priced it too high) will certainly be much more expensive to run, and I've never disputed that electric cars are cheaper to run (as I said, I'm a fan and think they're the way forward) but you need to be able to buy it first.
But apparently you believe a base Prius is expensive....I mean, thats an opinion, thats one point of view. It would generally be considered uninformed....but here let me shed some light.
"The analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for light vehicles in the United States was $37,577 in December 2018" Thats essentially what a base model 3 costs. So unless you consider average expensive.....then its average. Both cars you mentioned are again not great cars, sure they work for some people, but they are cheap econobox cars. No Teslas are not cheap.....but they aren't all expensive, and in the long term you are getting a cheaper cost of ownership of a more capable car then comparatively priced cars.
Fact is that your cheap cars do not provide the utility that most people seek in buying a car. If they did they would sell well and retain their value.....they do not. Small, no storage room, short range, low speed, cramped, low on features. They are cheap for a reason. And as we know most cheap things are just that...Cheap, cheaply built, and in the long run rarely worth what was actually paid for them. Thats why when you sell them you take a bath on them! But don't try to confuse cheap with affordable. Just because Ford named a car the Aspire......doesn't mean anyone aspired to own one.....and everyone called them the Assfire.
Descent cars have always cost about a year of an average persons labor! Good cars cost a bit more! Cars now are much more capable, safer and complex than ever before its why they cost more working hours. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423
The average is 29k. Many people don't have full time jobs but still need cars. Perhaps an even more useful number is the median household disposable income (equivalised for household size and where 'disposable' means everything after direct taxation) which is 28,400 - and more and more households need (or feel they need) to have two vehicles.
Re: their utility. It's been clear from the outset that I'm talking about UK Pricing, yes? Bear in mind that Europe is largely composed of small nations with overwhelmingly urban populations that have short commutes (that are very often on public transport or foot anyway) almost entirely through urban landscapes. The shops they go to are most probably in that same environment. The closest airport is probably much the same. Most of their family likely live within an hour or two, if that far. Most of your negatives there are irrelevant to most drivers and small is often a bonus (and if you need space most folks are buying a Renault Kadjar, Nissan Qashqai, Ford Kuga, Hyundai Tucson,
Kia Sportage or other £20k-ish car).
The vehicles that most people consider perfectly decent here have never been aligned with the average salary. As I said earlier, our average new car price is 28,973 (which has seen a 38% jump in ten years, largely due to lease deals, so historically people spent far less compared to their salary), but that is seriously skewed by the people buying the expensive things.
Our ten most popular new cars are:
Beyond that, it's also important to remember that in the UK people buy more than five times as many used cars as new cars - where the differential between a Tesla (and all electrica, really) and other options because even more stark. This will change, hopefully quickly so that more people can switch to electric cars, but the difference is huge, currently. An increase of around 200% between the average used car and a used Tesla when I checked a couple posts ago.
Teslas are expensive cars. Whether they're good value for money, and I think they are, is a different issue, and I feel that that's really what you're addressing.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/06/21 09:12:56
2019/06/21 09:18:47
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
That story is, to put it mildly, bullgak. You can't take the dollar price, convert it to UK pounds and call that the price of the car, which is what they've done. I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
This highlights a major problem with your arguments - you're coming at everything from a US-centric point of view. That's fine, but at least acknowledge that, and be aware it doesn't apply everywhere. The type of driving in the UK is vastly different to what people in the US do, for example. Also, when it comes to EV infrastructure, it's very important to consider access to things like fast charging and in the UK in particular, and my bit of it specifically, the Tesla Supercharger is not a selling point for a Tesla because they don't exist in large enough numbers to make any kind of difference to the decision making process of buying a new EV. Similarly, you seem to be really keen to point out the performance of a Model 3. I, like many others, don't care. Sure, I don't want to drive something that accelerates and handles like an oil tanker but all the EVs I've tested so far (those being the Leaf, i3 and Ioniq) have been fast enough for urban driving thanks to the instant torque from the electric motor, and have not felt slow on the motorway either. The Leaf and particularly the i3 were actually quite fun in city traffic, which isn't something I'd ever thought I'd say of a car. After a certain point the average driver doesn't care about 0-60 times, or lap times round the Nürburgring.
2019/06/21 12:23:29
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Andrew1975 wrote: I guess expensive is subjective for sure, however most people wouldn't consider a Toyota Camry expensive. Sure you can get a BMW M3 ....but the BUY in price is more expensive than a Model 3 performance.....the long term ownership cost is much more and The model 3 has better all around performance. So, I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here.
I mean you are trying to compare a glorified go cart with actual automobiles. The Aygo is a car in that it has 4 wheels and 2 doors, and thats about it. Are you purposefully being daft? Because for someone of accusing me of being rude.....your attempt at whit is pretty poor.
What you want is a Cheap car, not an affordable one, and that thing is a cheap piece of gak for sure! Toyota Aygo....yeah....I go somewhere else to buy a actual car.
Just you crack on with being impolite, then. Now with the sneering snobbishness bonus.
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'BUY in price'? Here, new Series 3s and new Model 3s are within a few hundred pounds of one another.
The point, as above, is that you're comparing vehicles that, in this territory, are considered expensive. You don't think they're expensive, and want to dismiss the fact that there are cars out there that are a fraction of the price because you don't think they're worthy of being called cars but they exist. Given that these options are available, however, it is hard to argue that vehicles costing several times as much, that are 25% more than the average new car, 10k more than the average UK salary, and about double the average Scottish salary, are not expensive.
They are expensive cars.
I can buy three fully loaded Hyundai Elantras for the Model 3.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2019/06/21 16:15:14
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I can buy three fully loaded Hyundai Elantras for the Model 3.
But why would you want 3 Hyundai Elantras????
A person whom wants to summon nugle cars?
Though seriously a EV would be pretty perfect for millage really, but here's the thing a massive ass pay wall.
38,000 for a car I use as a run about, and short 25 - 30 mile commute. And that's starting prices.
Bring the prices down, could be practical.
Just not at at that money, vs the cost of a Ice run about.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2019/06/21 16:41:16
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I can buy three fully loaded Hyundai Elantras for the Model 3.
But why would you want 3 Hyundai Elantras????
Because I have three drivers?
(I see what you did there!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 16:44:18
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2019/06/23 02:03:17
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro
New model S in Spain 82K euro
New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro
New Jag iPace 79K euro
Nope you just like to Cherry pick as usual. In fact your whole post is deceptive.
New model X US $81-102K But really add ludicrous 20k and FSD is 7K and 1250 destination fee so anywhere between ...so really between 90k and 130k
New model S US $76-97 But really Add ludicrous 20k and FSD is $7K and 1250 destination fee...so really between 85K and 130K
New Model 3 US $35-60K Before FSD of $7000 So really between and 1250 destination fee...so really between 45K and 70K
Model Y is about 10K more than model 3 so 55k and 80K
.
And both the e-tron and jag can go well north of 100K if you start piling up stuff. Congratulations, you have discovered options. I quoted the base price on each car so the comparison stands.
See, 116K euro and I didn't even have to add that many things.
You can easily get a 50K+ Nissan leaf which is the car that compares to the model 3.
A Tesla spokesperson has stated that the settings for Max Battery Power and Launch Mode were inadvertently removed from some Model S vehicles after a UI update. The electric car maker is currently working on a fix for the issue, and has noted that the updates were not intended to restrict the performance of the affected Model S vehicles. Tesla extends its apologies to electric car owners for the inconvenience resulting from this issue.
Not the same instance you're quoting from the May update. Review the TMC thread I posted before and you'll see it's a brand new thing.
This is strictly battery-capacity related, and right after the China fires, and Tesla service is on record telling owners they're cutting their battery capacity "to prolong the life of the battery".
There's a class action brewing there. Either Tesla has to compensate for lack of range/charging speed or they have to acknowledge their tech has dangerously traded performance for safety.
Sure you can get a Jag I pace with a ton of cosmetic options on it if you want to add a bunch of Gak to it that doesn't change the argument. By both performance and price those cars are closer to 3 and y than x and s.
Youe own articicle says this is a software and tesla communications issue.
The average is 29k. Many people don't have full time jobs but still need cars. Perhaps an even more useful number is the median household disposable income (equivalised for household size and where 'disposable' means everything after direct taxation) which is 28,400 - and more and more households need (or feel they need) to have two vehicles.
If thats the case they can buy cheap econoboxes. Thats fine. You are still equating cheap with affordable.
I'm not being dishonest, I just recognise that determining whether something is expensive (rather than value for money) requires situating a product in the full spectrum of available options, not just similarly priced examples.
Well thats just silly because if you look at the "full spectrum of cars" Model 3 is pretty cheap. You can pay millions for a car. Now if you take cars with similar abilities, size and performance......the 3 is still affordable. If your view of affordable is limited to cars that are 14K new......im sorry, but thats just not reality. The base model is an average priced car.
I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
I already said this currently the only one available is the standard range plus....Tesla does that. Even in the US if you want the base model you have to place a special order for it. Its not available on the site, you must call in and request it directly. Will you have to wait till one is built and ready....yes. For now, thats how it works. They havent really built them, if you order the base model right now what you get is a software limited version of the midrange model. Its actually a really good deal. Yeah, Tesla especially outside the US has huge waiting lists...its a popular car, Tesla is having problems growing fast enough to keep up with demand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/23 02:33:28
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/06/23 02:17:35
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I can buy three fully loaded Hyundai Elantras for the Model 3.
But why would you want 3 Hyundai Elantras????
A person whom wants to summon nugle cars?
Though seriously a EV would be pretty perfect for millage really, but here's the thing a massive ass pay wall.
38,000 for a car I use as a run about, and short 25 - 30 mile commute. And that's starting prices.
Bring the prices down, could be practical.
Just not at at that money, vs the cost of a Ice run about.
Oh for sure! Look its not perfect for everyone all the time.....what car is? As EV adoption takes place and tech gets cheaper you will see cheaper EVs.....what you will see first is the ICE used car prices tank, people will be able to pick up used ICE cars for peanuts.
Whether they're good value for money, and I think they are, is a different issue, and I feel that that's really what you're addressing.
It goes beyond that. Affordable has so many meanings. Its a matter of priorities, Ive seen lots of people go the cheap route on things and it often comes back to haunt them. When we do a long term cost comparison.....not even that long we can see that the 3 comes out cheaper than many of the cheaper cars in your top ten list of cars. The long term ownership costs of those cars actually make them more expensive, even when you include financing of the higher buy in amount of the 3. Here we have a car with thousands of less moving parts requiring almost no maintenance....(this is why GM killed the EV1) we have hard data on from Tesloop a third party rideshareing service thats shows even after 600,000 miles we have minimal...almost 0 maintenance and/or battery degradation. This means that these cars properly cared for may last much longer than other cars and still require little maintenance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/23 03:33:56
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/06/23 08:08:39
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
I already said this currently the only one available is the standard range plus....Tesla does that. Even in the US if you want the base model you have to place a special order for it. Its not available on the site, you must call in and request it directly. Will you have to wait till one is built and ready....yes. For now, thats how it works. They havent really built them, if you order the base model right now what you get is a software limited version of the midrange model. Its actually a really good deal. Yeah, Tesla especially outside the US has huge waiting lists...its a popular car, Tesla is having problems growing fast enough to keep up with demand.
You know you come across as really patronising right? Did you even read what I said at all? The article you posted is utter crap. It's taking the dollar price and converting it to pounds, which isn't even remotely accurate. The starting price is as I quoted. I know this because I have phoned them. I spoke to the dealership directly and that is the base price quoted, not the actual purchase price of the ones you can order right now, which is over £40k. You are wrong, it's as simple as that.
2019/06/23 09:54:38
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
I already said this currently the only one available is the standard range plus....Tesla does that. Even in the US if you want the base model you have to place a special order for it. Its not available on the site, you must call in and request it directly. Will you have to wait till one is built and ready....yes. For now, thats how it works. They havent really built them, if you order the base model right now what you get is a software limited version of the midrange model. Its actually a really good deal. Yeah, Tesla especially outside the US has huge waiting lists...its a popular car, Tesla is having problems growing fast enough to keep up with demand.
You know you come across as really patronising right? Did you even read what I said at all? The article you posted is utter crap. It's taking the dollar price and converting it to pounds, which isn't even remotely accurate. The starting price is as I quoted. I know this because I have phoned them. I spoke to the dealership directly and that is the base price quoted, not the actual purchase price of the ones you can order right now, which is over £40k. You are wrong, it's as simple as that.
Andrew1975 wrote:
Elbows wrote: Just checking in, my monthly "is Andrew what's-his-face still on his Tesla crusade" check. All is well with the world. Carry on.
Ahhh, thanks for your oh so insightful additions as usual.
I can buy three fully loaded Hyundai Elantras for the Model 3.
But why would you want 3 Hyundai Elantras????
A person whom wants to summon nugle cars?
Though seriously a EV would be pretty perfect for millage really, but here's the thing a massive ass pay wall.
38,000 for a car I use as a run about, and short 25 - 30 mile commute. And that's starting prices.
Bring the prices down, could be practical.
Just not at at that money, vs the cost of a Ice run about.
Oh for sure! Look its not perfect for everyone all the time.....what car is? As EV adoption takes place and tech gets cheaper you will see cheaper EVs.....what you will see first is the ICE used car prices tank, people will be able to pick up used ICE cars for peanuts.
Whether they're good value for money, and I think they are, is a different issue, and I feel that that's really what you're addressing.
It goes beyond that. Affordable has so many meanings. Its a matter of priorities, Ive seen lots of people go the cheap route on things and it often comes back to haunt them. When we do a long term cost comparison.....not even that long we can see that the 3 comes out cheaper than many of the cheaper cars in your top ten list of cars. The long term ownership costs of those cars actually make them more expensive, even when you include financing of the higher buy in amount of the 3. Here we have a car with thousands of less moving parts requiring almost no maintenance....(this is why GM killed the EV1) we have hard data on from Tesloop a third party rideshareing service thats shows even after 600,000 miles we have minimal...almost 0 maintenance and/or battery degradation. This means that these cars properly cared for may last much longer than other cars and still require little maintenance.
Tue. Not perfect, however while prices have gone down, I Don, t see those becoming a regular affordable average Joe cost for a good while.
The car makers and industry are not geared up to mass produce them. Take a mega oil crisis or somthing of that ilk to force such a huge transformation in transport..
And I must say a straight price convert ignores UK custom, exercise and also first time ownership and one of tac payments which add up fairly high. Even with EV schemes.
New cars have a fair few grand in first time costs.
So 40k is Peobbly very acurate or more.
...
One other thing. While we may love or hate them there is a very real cost in a africa to consider etc.
Sustainable must also be sustainable and ethical as far as Africa and so allows. Its never gonna be perfect b it bi just saw this story. This is the hell that feeds our demands for batteries.
Save planet yes. Let's also consider how we do it.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2019/06/23 10:41:16
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Do you even make a bit of research or just post the first thing that comes off your head?
New model X in Spain 84K euro New model S in Spain 82K euro New Audi Etron in Spain 82K euro New Jag iPace 79K euro
Nope you just like to Cherry pick as usual. In fact your whole post is deceptive.
New model X US $81-102K But really add ludicrous 20k and FSD is 7K and 1250 destination fee so anywhere between ...so really between 90k and 130k New model S US $76-97 But really Add ludicrous 20k and FSD is $7K and 1250 destination fee...so really between 85K and 130K New Model 3 US $35-60K Before FSD of $7000 So really between and 1250 destination fee...so really between 45K and 70K Model Y is about 10K more than model 3 so 55k and 80K .
And both the e-tron and jag can go well north of 100K if you start piling up stuff. Congratulations, you have discovered options. I quoted the base price on each car so the comparison stands.
See, 116K euro and I didn't even have to add that many things.
You can easily get a 50K+ Nissan leaf which is the car that compares to the model 3.
A Tesla spokesperson has stated that the settings for Max Battery Power and Launch Mode were inadvertently removed from some Model S vehicles after a UI update. The electric car maker is currently working on a fix for the issue, and has noted that the updates were not intended to restrict the performance of the affected Model S vehicles. Tesla extends its apologies to electric car owners for the inconvenience resulting from this issue.
Not the same instance you're quoting from the May update. Review the TMC thread I posted before and you'll see it's a brand new thing.
This is strictly battery-capacity related, and right after the China fires, and Tesla service is on record telling owners they're cutting their battery capacity "to prolong the life of the battery".
There's a class action brewing there. Either Tesla has to compensate for lack of range/charging speed or they have to acknowledge their tech has dangerously traded performance for safety.
Sure you can get a Jag I pace with a ton of cosmetic options on it if you want to add a bunch of Gak to it that doesn't change the argument. By both performance and price those cars are closer to 3 and y than x and s.
Youe own articicle says this is a software and tesla communications issue.
Cosmetic or otherwise doesn't mean anything, price is price and the basic editions of either Tesla, Jag or Audi cost roughly the same.
Well, of course it is a software issue. Tesla is taking away advertised capacity and performance without telling their owners.
Remember all your math about how tesla tech is the very best? How good is that math if one year from purchase Tesla cuts your range by over 10% without telling you? Say you purchased a model S over an e-tron because their range is 10% higher then Tesla cuts you off one year after purchase.
Remember the collective Tesla community pointing fingers at Audi and Jaguar because of the relatively poor range they got from their big batteries? Most likely here's the answer. If the batteries can't meet Tesla's stated range in a safe manner they should be considered defective and replaced, period. Remember the last time Porsche cut off two cylingers off an owner flat-six because the owner drove the car too hard? Yeah, me neither.
One way or another this is going to end in court, and it doesn't look good for Tesla.
As a bonus piece Tesla finds itself again dead bottom of whatcar reliability index. A whopping 20 points below the 2nd worst (Land Rover, incidentally) and well far of most brands which stay firmly in the 90s.
The average is 29k. Many people don't have full time jobs but still need cars. Perhaps an even more useful number is the median household disposable income (equivalised for household size and where 'disposable' means everything after direct taxation) which is 28,400 - and more and more households need (or feel they need) to have two vehicles.
If thats the case they can buy cheap econoboxes. Thats fine. You are still equating cheap with affordable.
I'm talking about affordable for the average family. That's what you call cheap - and that's perfectly fine - but these are meaningful figures I'm giving you.
I'm not being dishonest, I just recognise that determining whether something is expensive (rather than value for money) requires situating a product in the full spectrum of available options, not just similarly priced examples.
Well thats just silly because if you look at the "full spectrum of cars" Model 3 is pretty cheap. You can pay millions for a car.
Fair, but I think it should have been clear I meant relative to vehicles that are bought in meaningful numbers. Apologies if not.
Now if you take cars with similar abilities, size and performance......the 3 is still affordable. If your view of affordable is limited to cars that are 14K new......im sorry, but thats just not reality. The base model is an average priced car.
It is reality. And they are not average. I've literally given you average new car prices in the UK, the ten most popular new cars, average incomes, and average household disposable incomes. Cheapest Teslas are 10k more than the average new car. Teslas are 8k more expensive than the most expensive of the ten most popular, 15k more than the 2nd most expensive, 16k more than the next, and almost twice, or more than twice, as expensive the other 7. They are significantly more than both the average salary and the average household disposable income.
They are not average.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/23 10:53:18
They've put these six big power blocks into the Redbridge park and ride. I'm not clear if they are huge batteries or generators or some kind of hybrid technology, They say quiet hybrid on them.
I think there are solar cells on top. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.
Quick update: just ordered a Nissan Leaf, for delivery in a few months. Took an i3, Leaf and Ioniq for test drives recently and found the i3 and Leaf to be great to drive (not so impressed with the Ioniq as it didn't really feel like it was leveraging the advantages of an electric properly). Loved that both the i3 and Leaf are capable of genuine 1-pedal driving. Did a 7-mile drive through from the suburbs of Edinburgh to a nearby town through city streets and more open roads an managed not to touch the brakes once, which was a fantastic experience.
We did a lot of research into all of our options and ended on the Leaf for the following reasons:
1. Price. We weren't willing to go much over £35k maximum. That knocked out a couple of contenders
2. Availability. We were willing to wait a little bit but not for the 9-12 months Kia, Hyundai and Tesla are currently quoting as wait times for their new cars
3. Range. This was our biggest issue. We did a lot of research into this, from getting an idea based on our own test drives (not very accurate) to looking at various real-world tests that have been carried out over a longer time period. We wanted something that would comfortably get over 200 miles with just a single fast-charge in the middle, with the realistic possibility of stretching that out to closer to 250 miles. Most of our driving will be around town, no more than 30 miles at a time, with the odd 100-mile round trip thrown in here and there.
4. Practicality. It had to be a decent size inside, including luggage space in the back/front. Ideally it had to have 5 seats as well. We won't often use all 5 but the option is a good one to have. This is the big area where the i3 fell down. The stupid back doors are hugely impractical and the boot is laughably small. As a small city car it'd be OK, but not at the prices BMW are charging.
After putting all that together we ended up on the Leaf. We were very impressed with the test drive and level of equipment offered as standard and the driving experience was very relaxing - not often I can say that about a car. Accelerates really well in city traffic too. We're now just going through the various processes for setting up home charging, which I have to say, could be made a lot easier with a little bit of thought. Looking forward to taking delivery soon.
Slipspace wrote: We're now just going through the various processes for setting up home charging, which I have to say, could be made a lot easier with a little bit of thought. Looking forward to taking delivery soon.
Congrats on the purchase.
Back when we were on the market for an electric car about these dates on last year Nissan was offering something like 1.200 euro to help pay for the home charging setup.
Slipspace wrote: We're now just going through the various processes for setting up home charging, which I have to say, could be made a lot easier with a little bit of thought. Looking forward to taking delivery soon.
Congrats on the purchase.
Back when we were on the market for an electric car about these dates on last year Nissan was offering something like 1.200 euro to help pay for the home charging setup.
Are they offering that in the UK, too?
Thanks
In the UK there's £3500 off the price of the car and a £500 grant towards the cost of the home charging kit. However, I'm in Scotland, which has a couple of extra incentives in the form of a £300 additional grant for home charging and a 6-year interest-free loan to cover up to £35,000 of the cost of a new EV. This is because Scotland has committed to banning all sales of ICE cars by 2032 (the target for the rest of the UK is 2040).
The problem isn't so much on the financial side. The bureaucracy and really inconvenient system in place to claim a lot of the incentives just seems completely unnecessary. Ironically, it feels like something from about 20 years ago, when governments were still getting to grips with the internet, as so much of it has to be done by phone or mail when it could easily be done online.
2019/06/27 15:46:15
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
I already said this currently the only one available is the standard range plus....Tesla does that. Even in the US if you want the base model you have to place a special order for it. Its not available on the site, you must call in and request it directly. Will you have to wait till one is built and ready....yes. For now, thats how it works. They havent really built them, if you order the base model right now what you get is a software limited version of the midrange model. Its actually a really good deal. Yeah, Tesla especially outside the US has huge waiting lists...its a popular car, Tesla is having problems growing fast enough to keep up with demand.
You know you come across as really patronising right? Did you even read what I said at all? The article you posted is utter crap. It's taking the dollar price and converting it to pounds, which isn't even remotely accurate. The starting price is as I quoted. I know this because I have phoned them. I spoke to the dealership directly and that is the base price quoted, not the actual purchase price of the ones you can order right now, which is over £40k. You are wrong, it's as simple as that.
No you are not getting it, the 38K might be the cheapest they have available NOW....its not the cheapest model 3 they make!
It is reality. And they are not average. I've literally given you average new car prices in the UK, the ten most popular new cars, average incomes, and average household disposable incomes. Cheapest Teslas are 10k more than the average new car. Teslas are 8k more expensive than the most expensive of the ten most popular, 15k more than the 2nd most expensive, 16k more than the next, and almost twice, or more than twice, as expensive the other 7. They are significantly more than both the average salary and the average household disposable income.
One other thing. While we may love or hate them there is a very real cost in a africa to consider etc.
Absolutely, and I think the situation will improve. However when we see compare this to the damage the oil industry brings....its worth the transition. Oil has been a key source of human suffering for the last couple centuries.
Well, of course it is a software issue. Tesla is taking away advertised capacity and performance without telling their owners.
I meant that its an update issue that will and can be solved. Does it suck, sure. But its a software bug that affected a very small percentage of Tesla Model S's nothing more.
As a bonus piece Tesla finds itself again dead bottom of whatcar reliability index. A whopping 20 points below the 2nd worst (Land Rover, incidentally) and well far of most brands which stay firmly in the 90s.
Who has ever even heard of Whatcar? Could they maybe post some insightful data? Maybe its a thing in the UK. I'm not worried about it. If Tesla needs to do a recall I'm sure they will. We have already seen the extensive list of recall from other companies..no need to put then up again. What I would like to see is some real world data showing how many Teslas are still running, and how many have been lost to quality issues.....I mean we see a lot of stories....but where is the Data? Its funny you would think since there are so many haters, that someone would have this metric.....I wonder why it hasn't surfaced? ..........I wonder.
After putting all that together we ended up on the Leaf. We were very impressed with the test drive and level of equipment offered as standard and the driving experience was very relaxing - not often I can say that about a car. Accelerates really well in city traffic too. We're now just going through the various processes for setting up home charging, which I have to say, could be made a lot easier with a little bit of thought. Looking forward to taking delivery soon.
Congrats, I hope you like it. Its not hard to set up home charging if you are a little handy.....their are plenty of youtube videos on how to do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 16:11:09
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/06/28 05:26:17
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
It is reality. And they are not average. I've literally given you average new car prices in the UK, the ten most popular new cars, average incomes, and average household disposable incomes. Cheapest Teslas are 10k more than the average new car. Teslas are 8k more expensive than the most expensive of the ten most popular, 15k more than the 2nd most expensive, 16k more than the next, and almost twice, or more than twice, as expensive the other 7. They are significantly more than both the average salary and the average household disposable income.
You've repeatedly said they were not expensive without qualification and separately noted the savings over time - as an additional bonus rather than as justification for the first claim. If what you meant was always 'they are expensive to buy but not to run' then great - we're in full agreement. Alas, that purchase cost is what makes them unaffordable for most people.
You are being very disingenuous. The Nissan starts at £19,995, Merc A-Class at £23,160. The BMW £23,055. Firstly, if you're citing a list of the most popular cars in the UK, clearly the most expensive variants of the most expensive cars on the list are not the cars that are being bought in the large numbers and are in no way representative of the norm, never mind that you're simply ignoring that the others making up the list are cheaper, and most often significantly so, than even their base models. Secondly, you can't compare the most expensive variants of the most expensive cars popular in the UK with the base price of the cheapest Tesla to try and prove their relative affordability amongst the average cars popular in the UK. The points stands that the cheapest Tesla is significantly more expensive than all of the most popular cars in the UK. I refer you again to the average new car prices, average income, and median household disposable income.
If you want to compare like for like in terms of spec options, a fully loaded Model 3 costs near double the base price in the US, right? We can't extrapolate that directly to UK pricing, but the fully loaded version is still going to be way, way beyond the three cars you cite above with every bell and whistle you can get; likely at least in the region of 20k more expensive.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/06/28 08:23:12
2019/06/28 06:23:11
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
I live in the UK and I can tell you that the model 3 starts at £38k - and you can't actually buy one until next year anyway due to the waiting list (I know this because I've phoned them and asked them as part of our ongoing research into buying an EV). So that's about 50% more than the 26k you're talking about. £38k in the UK market would be classed as expensive. We're not into full-on luxury but that's Mercedes E-Class territory, or similar to a Jaguar XF/F-Pace. Those cars would not be considered "average".
I already said this currently the only one available is the standard range plus....Tesla does that. Even in the US if you want the base model you have to place a special order for it. Its not available on the site, you must call in and request it directly. Will you have to wait till one is built and ready....yes. For now, thats how it works. They havent really built them, if you order the base model right now what you get is a software limited version of the midrange model. Its actually a really good deal. Yeah, Tesla especially outside the US has huge waiting lists...its a popular car, Tesla is having problems growing fast enough to keep up with demand.
You know you come across as really patronising right? Did you even read what I said at all? The article you posted is utter crap. It's taking the dollar price and converting it to pounds, which isn't even remotely accurate. The starting price is as I quoted. I know this because I have phoned them. I spoke to the dealership directly and that is the base price quoted, not the actual purchase price of the ones you can order right now, which is over £40k. You are wrong, it's as simple as that.
No you are not getting it, the 38K might be the cheapest they have available NOW....its not the cheapest model 3 they make!
It is reality. And they are not average. I've literally given you average new car prices in the UK, the ten most popular new cars, average incomes, and average household disposable incomes. Cheapest Teslas are 10k more than the average new car. Teslas are 8k more expensive than the most expensive of the ten most popular, 15k more than the 2nd most expensive, 16k more than the next, and almost twice, or more than twice, as expensive the other 7. They are significantly more than both the average salary and the average household disposable income.
One other thing. While we may love or hate them there is a very real cost in a africa to consider etc.
Absolutely, and I think the situation will improve. However when we see compare this to the damage the oil industry brings....its worth the transition. Oil has been a key source of human suffering for the last couple centuries.
Well, of course it is a software issue. Tesla is taking away advertised capacity and performance without telling their owners.
I meant that its an update issue that will and can be solved. Does it suck, sure. But its a software bug that affected a very small percentage of Tesla Model S's nothing more.
You make it sound like it is an unintended consequence of a badly written software upgrade.
It is not, it is a deliberate software patch to solve a hardware issue, namely that Tesla batteries develop a fire risk if you push them too hard or supercharge them too often.
In the past Tesla would have reached out to you and just replaced the battery pack proactively like on the famous 400.000 mile Tesla that had its pack replaced twice under warranty.
The first battery pack replacement happened after 194,000 miles. At that time, the battery pack energy capacity degradation was at ~6%, which is reasonable, but Tesla found a problem due to Tesloop’s frequent Supercharging.
Here’s the reason Tesla gave for the battery replacement:
Found internal imbalance in HV battery due to consistent supercharging to 100% from a low state of charge (SOC) without any rest periods in between. HV battery has been approved to be replaced. Also recommend that customer does not Supercharge on a regular basis and does not charge to 100% on a regular basis. We also recommend that the customer use scheduled charging to start charge 3 hours after end of drive at low SOC.
Right now Tesla will just put a hard cap on your battery, and won't even tell you about it unless you push them. Just like it removed hp and launch mode if you used them too often.
Who has ever even heard of Whatcar? Could they maybe post some insightful data? Maybe its a thing in the UK. I'm not worried about it.
Tesla should if they want to sell any meaningful number of cars in the UK.
It's the most important survey over there. Data and methodology are a few clicks away, look it up.
No you are not getting it, the 38K might be the cheapest they have available NOW....its not the cheapest model 3 they make!
It is for us! Seriously dude, this isn't hard to grasp. In the UK the Model 3 IS NOT AVAILABLE AT LESS THAN £38k (after the £3500 government grant). It never will be and the indication I received from Tesla when I spoke to them is that the vast majority of vehicles they're going to be importing will be the much more expensive AWD one, starting at £48,500.
Who has ever even heard of Whatcar?
Everyone from the UK. It's one of the biggest car magazines/websites in the UK for reviews and well respected when it comes to their reliability scoring and owners surveys.
Just like your comments about the Tesla Model 3 in the UK, this perfectly shows your US-centric view is simply not valid everywhere and your dismissive approach to anything that doesn't confirm your Tesla fanboy world-view becomes more comical each time you say things like "Who has ever heard of WhatCar?"
Let's take your comments about the best selling cars, using base prices, to show how the Tesla stacks up as an "affordable" car.
The Tesla is a minimum of £38k. You might notice that's over £15k more than any of the cars on that list. Sure, you can (and probably will) spend more than the base price on most of those cars, but the same's true of the Tesla, which can end up at over £50k depending ont he specific make and the options you choose. EV's biggest problem remains the buy-in cost and, for us, Tesla exacerbates that by being even more expensive than the competition, to the point where they priced themselves out of consideration for us given all the other issues we were concerned about like servicing and repairs.
2019/06/28 16:00:13
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Just like your comments about the Tesla Model 3 in the UK, this perfectly shows your US-centric view is simply not valid everywhere and your dismissive approach to anything that doesn't confirm your Tesla fanboy world-view becomes more comical each time you say things like "Who has ever heard of WhatCar?"
Mate, his veiws aren't really all that valid even considering the US-Centric views. . . I mean, lets take his favorite "unbiased" source. It's straight up a pro-tesla site, and they make no bones about it.
I'm a yank, and I've definitely heard of WhatCar, as well as a number of other overseas auto publications. But then, I AM a bit of an oddball petrolhead in the US in that I prefer proper sports cars (as in cars that are designed to make high speed turns, unlike most US "sports" cars that are designed for the standing 1/4 mile)
2019/06/29 07:55:47
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I'm a yank, and I've definitely heard of WhatCar, as well as a number of other overseas auto publications. But then, I AM a bit of an oddball petrolhead in the US in that I prefer proper sports cars (as in cars that are designed to make high speed turns, unlike most US "sports" cars that are designed for the standing 1/4 mile)
What US "sports cars" are you talking about? The classic US sports cars are the Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper (if it returns) and they both go round corners pretty fast. The Mustang and Camaro are "pony cars", not sure if they fall under the "sports car" heading, but modern variants of the Mustang and Camaro get praised as being pretty good track cars, even tracks that have corners.
I think it's mostly the Dodge muscle cars that aren't too good through the twisties and seem to be focusing on 1/4 mile times with the Hellcat and Demon.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I'm a yank, and I've definitely heard of WhatCar, as well as a number of other overseas auto publications. But then, I AM a bit of an oddball petrolhead in the US in that I prefer proper sports cars (as in cars that are designed to make high speed turns, unlike most US "sports" cars that are designed for the standing 1/4 mile)
What US "sports cars" are you talking about? The classic US sports cars are the Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper (if it returns) and they both go round corners pretty fast. The Mustang and Camaro are "pony cars", not sure if they fall under the "sports car" heading, but modern variants of the Mustang and Camaro get praised as being pretty good track cars, even tracks that have corners.
I think it's mostly the Dodge muscle cars that aren't too good through the twisties and seem to be focusing on 1/4 mile times with the Hellcat and Demon.
When you look at the street versions of cars, a lot of the US sports cars get panned heavily by motoring journalists for their handling (when compared to their Euro/Asian counterparts). Sure, the purpose-built Corvettes competed fairly well at Le Mans. It wasn't until the most recent generation of Vettes (with the ZR.1 variant) that nearly everyone loved the handling abilities of the Vette. When the Corvette first came out in the 50s and 60s yeah, it was certainly one of the top sports cars around, and one of the better "weekend warrior" racers out there. . . Then technology moved on and by the 70s, 80s and through the early 2000s, the Corvette continued on with the same mindset of those early years. As a result, you may see them on a track day event, but they weren't major contenders for major races (a la, Le Mans, 24 hours of Daytona, etc)
And yeah, Dodge has for quite a while been all bout that pure straight line speed. And while Pony Cars are certainly a type of car, I personally would consider them to be a subset under the "sports car" umbrella because they were originally designed to be the "poor man's racer" and helped kick off the muscle car 'thing' in the US.
