Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Thanks for the writeup Slipspace.

The Leaf is what we'll probably get, and I have tried one at work. Cost and charging are the only issues we have so far.

Charging on trips is a later concern. I've been hassling the local councils to pull their fingers out and get some points installed, but they have to dicuss amongst themselves first (and next, and later...).

How are Nissan to deal with in the UK? Here in the US, it hasn't mattered which region/state/city I've been in, all Nissan dealers have been utter gak to try and deal with.

Honestly, the Nissan dealer we dealt with was amazing. Extremely knowledgeable, helpful throughout the process - which is a major plus due to the slightly more complicated factors involved in buying an EV - and great with communication. Granted, this is all from the buying side of things and we haven't had to deal with any problems yet so I can't say how good they are if something goes wrong or with longer term customer service but so far I've nothing bad to say about the dealer at all.

The BMW guy on the other hand...

Is this new? UK to ban ICE engines by 2035.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/32084/united-kingdom-government-moves-up-ban-on-internal-combustion-engines-to-2035

Eh they also said by 2020 we'd all be using electric cars anyway. I'll believe it when I see it. A 2035ban is one of those things they can talk about for the next 10 years and pose about. A bit like how Germany a few years back was going to go fully green energy only and then stopped because wind and solar can't meed modern industrial and consumer demands for power (at least not without covering so much land in glass and windmills that you've generated another environmental problem).


I can see consumers shifting to electric, especially if the cars are reliable; affordable (which will take time since you need both a new and secondhand market since many can't afford the big costs of a new car and are bumbling around in cheaper secondhand ones); well supported etc....

However farmers, lorries and such are areas where I can see pushback or at least a slower adoption rate. Basically your industrial workers and machines.



I think it also hinges on energy prices for electricity. It's one thing to push people toward another fuel source, but its quite another to push them toward one that might end up costing them more and more. In addition we've not even got round to building Sizewell C so there's questionmarks over if we'll have enough domestic production to meet a massive rise in electrical demand.



Don't get me wrong, I do think that electric is currently looking like the future. Even if it makes cars even harder to fix by a mechanic (heck even now many are just swapping parts not fixing parts); and even if the batteries are loaded with environmentally damaging chemicals and such. I just think that it might not happen by a specific date as smoothly as some might like.

The big problem I see with the electric car targets from most governments is the lack of improvement of infrastructure. I think affordability of the cars themselves will naturally start to improve as they become more common and manufacturers start genuinely competing with one another and the second hand market will continue to grow as EV adoption rises so hopefully those problems will sort themselves out within the next 10 years.

However, infrastructure is going to require more input from governments. In terms of electricity generation countries will need to increase their capacity in line with EV uptake and our ever-expanding cities too. There may be some difficult discussions to be had about where that supply comes from given many government's resistance to nuclear power. The bigger problem I'm seeing, though, is at the local consumer level. The EV charging infrastructure in the UK, for example, is fine...for now. But we're already seeing situations where the 2-4 charging points in an area are in use, leaving vehicles owners in a tough spot. We're also seeing no forward thinking from businesses. I've mentioned it before in this thread, I think, but recently a major shopping centre near my work did a substantial amount of work in their car park but there is still not a single EV charger across the whole site. Similarly at the biggest supermarket near my home, the renovated car park includes no facility to charge.

We're going to need an attitude change across the board to accommodate an increase in EVs. It needs to become commonplace for chargers to be installed every time a new large retail or commercial development is planned and the numbers of those chargers in a given place needs to go up too. We're going to need to have multiple chargers on every floor of a multi-storey, for example, rather than the 6-10 we see at the moment if you're lucky.

I think the problem for businesses is that because there's no government incentive nor mass market appeal yet; the costs are probably high for installing charging points. Plus there's probably considerations toward if its worth adding one now when the technology or connector shapes might change in 3 years time meaning further investment to get "up to standard". So why invest now in something that might not only be hardly ever used, but also outdated.

If you're going to start putting dozens into carparks and the like then its also a major local infrastructure consideration as now it might require new mains powerlines to be installed to supply a suitable level of power.




When it comes to the secondhand market there's one big pitfall as I see it - batteries. Possibly the most expensive part of the car and the one thing you can't operate it without. Whilst the actual car itself will devalue over time, the batteries won't. Plus safety considerations will likely mean that there will be strict limits on how old they can be before they have to be replaced. It's one thing to have a cheap car market, but if the batteries that make it work are still high priced then it might price people out.

I can see battery rental being a thing, which is going to add to costs as people would still have to put electricity into them.

Of course rental assumes standard battery designs etc.... So we swing back toward issues of scale.



I do agree that if government wants it to happen in a big way then the only way is if they do what they've done for solar and wind and introduce intensives to grow the market. Of course the risk is that, just like with things like solar, once the government money dries up the market could dry up as well - I don't think that will happen with electric cars though. More companies are going electric only whilst demand for cars will never go down so long as society continues to operate as it does

 Overread wrote:
When it comes to the secondhand market there's one big pitfall as I see it - batteries. Possibly the most expensive part of the car and the one thing you can't operate it without. Whilst the actual car itself will devalue over time, the batteries won't. Plus safety considerations will likely mean that there will be strict limits on how old they can be before they have to be replaced. It's one thing to have a cheap car market, but if the batteries that make it work are still high priced then it might price people out.

I can see battery rental being a thing, which is going to add to costs as people would still have to put electricity into them.

Batteries degrade, and fast-charges damage them the most. Most electric cars come with a battery warranty. I have seen one for 100,000 miles or 70% loss of charge.

As for rental, Renault does that already. It costs half as much to rent as I spend in a month's fuel. Add recharging costs to that, and it doesn't save much, if anything. The car is expensive anyway, so that's not an option for me.

Renewable electricity is now significantly cheaper than nuclear.

The production process for conventional fuel uses a lot of electricity which could be repurposed directly into the grid.

The key difficulty is to provide enough charging points. This is an area where government on a national or local level needs to get involved. Charging points for cars need to be as common as street lights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is this new? UK to ban ICE engines by 2035.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/32084/united-kingdom-government-moves-up-ban-on-internal-combustion-engines-to-2035

Yes but until they pass a bill it's a talking point rather than a policy.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Overread wrote:
When it comes to the secondhand market there's one big pitfall as I see it - batteries. Possibly the most expensive part of the car and the one thing you can't operate it without. Whilst the actual car itself will devalue over time, the batteries won't. Plus safety considerations will likely mean that there will be strict limits on how old they can be before they have to be replaced. It's one thing to have a cheap car market, but if the batteries that make it work are still high priced then it might price people out.

I can see battery rental being a thing, which is going to add to costs as people would still have to put electricity into them.

Batteries degrade, and fast-charges damage them the most. Most electric cars come with a battery warranty. I have seen one for 100,000 miles or 70% loss of charge.

As for rental, Renault does that already. It costs half as much to rent as I spend in a month's fuel. Add recharging costs to that, and it doesn't save much, if anything. The car is expensive anyway, so that's not an option for me.

Honestly I still think that the best idea for batteries would be to have garages slowcharge a bank of batteries and then car owners drive their car until the battery is near flat. Then they stop in at the garage and swap their batteries over for fresh charged ones and continue on. In theory that gives you maximum life and very fast charging. Of course the downsides are it would likely require a massive bank of extra batteries to make it work (which is an environmental and production problem of its own); plus it would likely take a good while to sort out supply and demand so that garages in high pressure areas have enough and those in low pressure areas aren't sitting on a mountain of batteries doing nothing. Plus there'd be issues with getting all the different manufacturers to agree upon a design and standard feature set. Which considering how fast the technology in this market is advancing, could be near impossible.

Cars would also have to have a separate emergency battery within them with limited range to get you to the garage in the event that the replaceable batteries are drained. Simply setting it up so that the internal battery can only charge off the replacement battery (ergo that you can't charge it at home) to stop people not renting a battery and living off the internal and charging at home (which would be possible for those only doing short runs all the time).

You'd then have to pay a standard rental fee or payment upon collection at the garage for your batteries.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Renewable electricity is now significantly cheaper than nuclear.

Thats not possible. Not in large scale. Renewable electricity sources are so inefficient in terms of land use, and require certain geological features, that they will never compete with a nuclear reactor. The only reason nuclear isn't used is because people have an irrational fear of nuclear power.

If we really really cared about the environment, we would switch 100% to nuclear power and use the many thousands of years of cheap electricity that it would buy us to develop better methods. Which would most likely take the form of further developing alternative nuclear fuels that are much more abundant in the universe. And simultaneously we would be opening up mineral deposits in the rest of the solar system, which probably includes more nuclear fuel to extend our reserves for many thousands of more years.

If renewable energy is somehow cheaper...California would like to find out how. They're shutting their last nuclear power plant without an actual capacity to replace its output.

This is a very solid video on the issue:

Yeah sadly as eco friendly as we want to be, nuclear is really the only option we currently have for the majority of countries with our current and expanding energy needs. Renewables have their place, but they just can't compete for the volume of output required and the continual reliability. Wind is great, until there's a few days without an wind. Solar can be great, until its cloudy and production reduces. Tidal is great until there's a huge storm that rips half the facility in half.

Hydro is a great idea in theory but requires vast areas to be flooded in order to build the lake for the dam to function and that has massive knock on effects both up and down river. Heck the Nile delta, which feeds Egypt, is falling apart partly because their hydro dams are blocking sediment and also preventing floods which delivered the sediment into the lands to make them fertile.



Nuclear really only has one major shortfall and that's long term storage of the material. Otherwise it produces a high output that you can control and keep constant. It's not as favoured and its freakishly expensive to build (its well into the region that many power companies basically would go bankrupt trying to build them); but it does at least provide the high continual output that isn't reliant on the whims of nature.

Plus the actual land footfall is very small in contrast to wind or solar farms which have to be utterly huge to deliver the kinds of power level that we require.

Longterm storage of nuclear material isn't really a problem either. Especially if we pursue Thorium reactors. Those produce almost negligible waste and we have mindbogglingly huge amounts of Thorium available. but even with Uranium waste it is relatively simple to store it in underground bunkers in places where it will not cause a problem for millennia, by which point we will have found permanent solutions.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Renewable electricity is now significantly cheaper than nuclear.

Thats not possible. Not in large scale. Renewable electricity sources are so inefficient in terms of land use, and require certain geological features, that they will never compete with a nuclear reactor. The only reason nuclear isn't used is because people have an irrational fear of nuclear power..

I have no dog in this fight and it's quiet at work, so I did some googling, because I was curious. Kilkrazy is right in terms of deployment costs: Putting up a wind turbine costs about 2-3 million per megawatt. Putting up a new nuclear power plant costs around 8-9 million per megawatt.

Of course, you're not exactly wrong, either. While on paper wind turbines win, in practice for them to pay off you need to really go big with them, like China did. In the US, your average nuclear plant does about a gigawatt - the smallest is 400 megawatts and the largest is 4 gigawatts. The biggest wind turbine farm in the US has a capacity of 576 megawatts but averages 125 - so lower by an order of magnitude.

But is it really impossible? China built a wind farm that is putting out 8 gigawatts now and will scale to 20 gigawatts. So it can definitely be done - surely there are places in the US as windy and unoccupied as the Gobi desert?

No speaking to solar or anything else, that's enough fast research for one night.

There might be places, but are they near enough to where the electricity is needed is the main question. Sure, you get fast consistent winds in the middle of deserts. But thats in the middle of deserts. Transmitting the electricity over hundreds of miles to the nearest major city means massive loss in power.

Plus there is longevity. Wind turbines last at best 20-25 years. Nuclear power plants can last far beyond that, and maintenance doesn't involve working with stuff that is ludicrously high off the ground. Yes its technical and highly skilled, but you're not dealing with massive 100+ ft long spinning blades.

You've also issues with climate.

A nuclear power station can output the same power level continually for much of its lifespan. A windfarm on the other hand might have long periods where production is very slow. Get a warm summer and a nice high pressure band over it and you could have very little wind. The result being that your massive bank of windmills doesn't generate any, or not much, energy for a prolonged period of time.

If that's just propping up your power supply its fine, but if that's now a major part of your power infrastructure then something somewhere has to give. Either you've got to cut power to industry and/or consumers or you've got to get some additional energy from somewhere else.


Plus you can't overlook the massive land area required for windfarms or the added complexity and risk of building them off-shore (which has environmental impacts of its own). Again these are big structures and can cause harm. Especially the case if you build them on windy routs that might be migratory pathways for birds or insects.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Plus there is longevity. Wind turbines last at best 20-25 years. Nuclear power plants can last far beyond that, and maintenance doesn't involve working with stuff that is ludicrously high off the ground. Yes its technical and highly skilled, but you're not dealing with massive 100+ ft long spinning blades.

I would expect a lot of the cost of wind power is the land. Even if the turbines and blades degrade and fail, the large part of the windill is intact.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Plus there is longevity. Wind turbines last at best 20-25 years. Nuclear power plants can last far beyond that.

That's a good point too - if a turbine costs 4 million per megawatt to deploy, and nuclear costs 8 million per megawatt, but the turbines last 25 years and the nuclear plant lasts 70, then nuclear wound up being cheaper in the long run.

But if we're being really honest, we should also amortize in the small but present cost of recovering from an environmental catastrophe. I don't know how to calculate that out. Fukishama has cost at least what, 190 billion or thereabouts?

I don't think Electric Vehicles will replace ones with combustion engines within timeframe of 25 years.
unttil cheaper and better batteries are devised. EV won't replace ol' vehicles soon

 Lone Cat wrote:
I don't think Electric Vehicles will replace ones with combustion engines within timeframe of 25 years.
unttil cheaper and better batteries are devised. EV won't replace ol' vehicles soon

That's the main issue. To make an EV actually replace "the internal combustion engine" in worldwide use, you need a tremendous, world-shattering advancement in technology. Because EV's are a step backwards in most things except emissions. It's a very first-world "global warming guilt" style product, rather than a genuine competent replacement for all internal combustion engined vehicles.

A technology or vehicle which only makes sense in a tiny percentage of the population is not an actual solution if you're concerned about fossil fuel use. Until an EV is a legitimate cost-effective, reasonable solution to the other 95% of the world's population it's just a gimmick.

I think most people aren't thinking outside of their narrow existence with regard to the concept of EVs in a worldwide scale. "Oh it makes sense because I'm a middle class American living in an urban center with a house and garage. I have one or two other vehicles, or I only drive 10-15 miles to work each day. I can rent a car when I want to travel..." etc. That's a shockingly narrow viewpoint and one based on a tiny percentage of the world population which buys cars.

Do I think there is a market for small Japanese style Kei cars with a 100 mile range and a $10-13K pricetag? Absolutely. As a second car for people who live in an environment conducive to owning an EV. That should actually be what they concentrate on, instead of $70K+ mega luxury cars (granted the sales department knows exactly who they're targeting with these vehicles).

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Renewable electricity is now significantly cheaper than nuclear.

Thats not possible. Not in large scale. Renewable electricity sources are so inefficient in terms of land use, and require certain geological features, that they will never compete with a nuclear reactor. The only reason nuclear isn't used is because people have an irrational fear of nuclear power.

If we really really cared about the environment, we would switch 100% to nuclear power and use the many thousands of years of cheap electricity that it would buy us to develop better methods. Which would most likely take the form of further developing alternative nuclear fuels that are much more abundant in the universe. And simultaneously we would be opening up mineral deposits in the rest of the solar system, which probably includes more nuclear fuel to extend our reserves for many thousands of more years.

The market says its possible.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-26/nuclear-power-risks-pricing-itself-out-of-europe-s-energy-market

Why do people insist that Nuclear power is safe and clean...when we have plenty of data that says it is not. Yeah on percentage its rare there is a problem, but when there is a problem...its pretty massive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
I don't think Electric Vehicles will replace ones with combustion engines within timeframe of 25 years.
unttil cheaper and better batteries are devised. EV won't replace ol' vehicles soon

That's the main issue. To make an EV actually replace "the internal combustion engine" in worldwide use, you need a tremendous, world-shattering advancement in technology. Because EV's are a step backwards in most things except emissions. It's a very first-world "global warming guilt" style product, rather than a genuine competent replacement for all internal combustion engined vehicles.

A technology or vehicle which only makes sense in a tiny percentage of the population is not an actual solution if you're concerned about fossil fuel use. Until an EV is a legitimate cost-effective, reasonable solution to the other 95% of the world's population it's just a gimmick.

I think most people aren't thinking outside of their narrow existence with regard to the concept of EVs in a worldwide scale. "Oh it makes sense because I'm a middle class American living in an urban center with a house and garage. I have one or two other vehicles, or I only drive 10-15 miles to work each day. I can rent a car when I want to travel..." etc. That's a shockingly narrow viewpoint and one based on a tiny percentage of the world population which buys cars.

Do I think there is a market for small Japanese style Kei cars with a 100 mile range and a $10-13K pricetag? Absolutely. As a second car for people who live in an environment conducive to owning an EV. That should actually be what they concentrate on, instead of $70K+ mega luxury cars (granted the sales department knows exactly who they're targeting with these vehicles).

How are EVS a step backwards? Already the price is comparable to that of an ICE car and will only get cheaper, range is similar, performance is similar, maintenance is far less, fueling is cheaper and is in most ways easier as you just plug in at home and wake up to a fully charged car. What percentage of people don't have access to a parking spot and a power outlet.....thats all you need. Sure if you live in a tower complex or a place with street parking.....its not an ideal solution, but lets not make it sound like thats 75% of people. The Toyota Corrola is the number 1 selling car in the world, there are EVS that are similar and once you do a bit of math the EVs come put cheaper in just a short amount of time. If you are buying a new car, I don't see many reasons to buy anything but an EV, (Sure there are legitimate reasons, but not many) especially considering what I believe will be a melt down in the value of ICE cars in just a few years. New Ice cars will be a terrible investment very soon. The average person keeps a car for six years......if you buy a new ICE car today, I guarantee that in six years that its value will be negatively effected by the rise of the electric car.

Listen Andrew, you have read the following issues before, but you ignore them:

1) An average EV is heavier than a normal ICE powered car. This is a step backwards. (bad for tires, bad for road infrastructure, bad for shipping costs, more fuel spent to ship them around the world)
2) An average EV is still more expensive than an ICE powered car. They're nowhere near as close as you're making them out to be, and less so when you remove the government assistance in reducing the purchase price. This is a step backwards for a car that does less.
3) An average EV car has nowhere near the "similar" range to a normal ICE car. My old car can do 380 miles on a tank of fuel...and it's not a particularly fuel efficient one. I'm not sure what cars you're comparing them to...but most ICE cars are now limited to 200-ish miles of range. A turbo-diesel vehicle can run upwards of 650-700 miles on a tank of fuel. This is a step backwards.
4) An average EV at the very best charges how fast? 30-45 minutes? An average ICE car is refueled with ease, anywhere on the planet (with an active road network) in 3-4 minutes tops. This is a step backwards.

These are not small issues. They're massive. You like to hand-wave them as if they're suddenly going to be fixed by some tremendous leap in technology. Build me a $16K new car with 400 mile range that re-charges in 3-4 minutes and doesn't damage the battery pack in any appreciable way. Seriously, make that car and then when the entire country's infrastructure is set up to support it...then try to sell it to me.

As for people who don't have access to a parking space with a power source suitable? A ton of people. You do realize that plenty of places in the world people will steal your electricity if it's plugged into your car, right? There are people who live in ghetto neighborhoods who are likely going to wake up with their charge equipment stolen, broken, or simply cut up. There are plenty of people who live in apartment complexes where they have large parking lots that are not going to be revamped for electric cars anytime soon. There are people who live in countries with poor or minimal electrical grids. Why should they embrace an EV? In some countries electricity is far more expensive than the US. In places where renewable energy is being pushed, electricity costs have gone up about 20-30% in the past ten years. What if the electricity demand goes up and prices increase? That shouldn't be an issue here, but could be in many places.

What about people who travel more than the range of your EV? What's the support network like for them? Here are three simple scenarios from my personal life - what's your answer for them as a single guy who possesses one vehicle?

1) My buddy lives 225 miles from me. I visit him frequently, and he is in a life situation where he could feasibly call me and need help with his wife/kids at a moment's notice. (1.5 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)
2) My sister lives 525 miles from me. I can drive there in around 7-7.5 hours, easily. (3 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)
3) My grandmother lives 165 miles from me. I can do the drive in 2.5 hours easily. I've had to drive out there unexpected on several instances when she's had issues. Drop of a hat. (less than one tank of fuel in my vehicle)

These are not extraordinary distances. These are easy drives, though Maryland isn't great. None of these trips are worth a plane ticket (Maryland maybe if there is a crazy medical emergency with my nephews - even then, the total time to fly up there would be similar to simply leaving the house).

In any one of these situations, what do I need to do in order to make that drive? Answer: check the tires and oil in my car and leave. Maybe take a piss before I head out. These are simple, economical drives and require zero planning, no rental cars, no time charging, etc. In all of these drives an EV (even one with 200 mile range) would be a no go. I've gone to my grandmother's house to check on her after a fall and driven home the same afternoon so I could go to work. It doesn't matter how long ago I drove my car or what my charge level is at. That's not a consideration. It shouldn't be. Owning a car or personal vehicle shouldn't require that.

I don't need to worry about charging a car at my buddy's, my sister's or my grandmother's house. I don't have to worry about stopping anywhere on the highway to simply refuel and keep going. I can tackle any of these road trips minutes after getting back from any other one of them. In an extreme situation I could toss a couple of 5-gallon tanks in the back of my car and drive for thousands of miles without issue).

Would it be nice if I owned several vehicles and one could be a cheap efficient EV? Maybe (and I mean "cheap", not your definition of it). I don't. I own one car. It gives me the freedom to tackle any driving situation with zero concern. Why would I go backwards into an EV and change all of that? I don't care about EV's performance specs. I don't care about the costs. Car maintenance is cheap on my car. My car has been paid off for six years now. I don't care about the environment. My car is a simple basic vehicle, I'm not blasting a V8 diesel everywhere I drive.

Explain to me how your magical EV suddenly solves this? For the same price as a basic ICE car?

You seem to have an exceptionally biased and narrow view of EV cars. If you presented yourself by saying "Man, I think EVs in the future are going to be a contender"...sure, maybe. Bu tthey're not right now. They're an answer for a very small demographic. I think you can't see outside of your own living situation. Have you considered how an EV benefits a person in South Africa? Venezuela? (good luck they get fuel for free basically...), a random town in Ukraine, or Romania? Under-developed portions of China and India? Or are middle-class/first world drivers and consumers the only thing you're happy to consider?

I'm not sure how else to present this other than: if I were to replace my car with an EV....it would be worse. I'm not sure why that's a difficult thing to understand, or why you don't grasp the backwards move the average EV presents to an average consumer. Buying a product that does less things for more money? It's just been a hugely premature market move. The tech isn't there. Now if you're happy being a test run for the eventual development of a useful and worthwhile EV - grand. Just stop pretending it's an answer for things it can't tackle.

 Elbows wrote:
Listen Andrew, you have read the following issues before, but you ignore them:

1) An average EV is heavier than a normal ICE powered car. This is a step backwards. (bad for tires, bad for road infrastructure, bad for shipping costs, more fuel spent to ship them around the world)

None Issue, A model 3 weighs 3552 pounds, a chrysler 300 weighs 4380 pounds.....so non issue. Already starting off with a real reach. a toyota corrolla weighs 3000 dry with another 14 gallons of gas at 6 pounds a gallon. HUGE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE THERE!

2) An average EV is still more expensive than an ICE powered car. They're nowhere near as close as you're making them out to be, and less so when you remove the government assistance in reducing the purchase price. This is a step backwards for a car that does less.

Non issue, You can get a model 3 for 35K in the US before any government incentives. All costs considered the cost to own is less then a Toyota corolla after 5 years. except you never see the government incentives included in a Toyota corolla. Gasoline is heavily subsidized and included lots of government incentives. I do love when people talk about EV incentives like ICE cars don't get any. Not to mention the other ways ICE cars cost taxpayers. We go to war for the oil that drives your ICE car. Who pays for that, tax payers!

3) An average EV car has nowhere near the "similar" range to a normal ICE car. My old car can do 380 miles on a tank of fuel...and it's not a particularly fuel efficient one. I'm not sure what cars you're comparing them to...but most ICE cars are now limited to 200-ish miles of range. A turbo-diesel vehicle can run upwards of 650-700 miles on a tank of fuel. This is a step backwards.

None issue According to the BMV the average car ICE car can go 300-400 miles, many EVs can go 300-400 miles. Very few people drive that much in a day, fueling up their car a few times a week. EVs can be charged at home giving you the full charge every morning when you wake up. Not perfect for 100% of the people but more than good enough for most. I guess it depends on what you mean by average, almost half the EVs in the world now are Tesla Model 3s...they are kind of driving the average up i guess.

4) An average EV at the very best charges how fast? 30-45 minutes? An average ICE car is refueled with ease, anywhere on the planet (with an active road network) in 3-4 minutes tops. This is a step backwards.

Again for the most part non issue. I wake up, my car is fully fueled. On long trips use fast charging after a 310 miles its time to take a lunch slash potty break anyway. Its a matter of perspective, I think its backwards to have to look at the gas gauge and wonder if I have to stop for gas today....how much is gas today?

These are not small issues. They're massive. You like to hand-wave them as if they're suddenly going to be fixed by some tremendous leap in technology. Build me a $16K new car with 400 mile range that re-charges in 3-4 minutes and doesn't damage the battery pack in any appreciable way. Seriously, make that car and then when the entire country's infrastructure is set up to support it...then try to sell it to me.

The average price of a new car is slightly over 36K. Evs easily fit in that average.....and are actually cheaper after only 5 years and many times cheaper in the long run, less maintenance, cheaper fuel...and by all accounts should last at least twice as long as an ICE car. I don't care what ICE car you buy, in the end I guarantee you that (barring a collision) at the end of the life of the cars my EV will be many times cheaper that any ICE car you can buy. Its just math and mechanics, less parts. Its like comparing a disk drive to a solid state drive. There are people that still like records, and they have their arguments......the market has shown what happened there.

As for people who don't have access to a parking space with a power source suitable? A ton of people. You do realize that plenty of places in the world people will steal your electricity if it's plugged into your car, right? There are people who live in ghetto neighborhoods who are likely going to wake up with their charge equipment stolen, broken, or simply cut up. There are plenty of people who live in apartment complexes where they have large parking lots that are not going to be revamped for electric cars anytime soon. There are people who live in countries with poor or minimal electrical grids. Why should they embrace an EV? In some countries electricity is far more expensive than the US. In places where renewable energy is being pushed, electricity costs have gone up about 20-30% in the past ten years. What if the electricity demand goes up and prices increase? That shouldn't be an issue here, but could be in many places.

Yes currently some people live in places where an EV wont work for them.....but many more do. As far as vandalism, Teslacam is dealing with that pretty effectively, I would also say most people that live in those situations are not buying New vehicles....but rather used, so its kind of a moot point. By the time these EVs make it to the secondary market in large numbers (they are hardly currently being produced in large numbers) there will be solutions to these issues. If you cant charge at home, by the time EVS really hit mass market.....there will be plenty of options for it.

What about people who travel more than the range of your EV? What's the support network like for them? Here are three simple scenarios from my personal life - what's your answer for them as a single guy who possesses one vehicle?

1) My buddy lives 225 miles from me. I visit him frequently, and he is in a life situation where he could feasibly call me and need help with his wife/kids at a moment's notice. (1.5 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

So your car gets 225 miles in a tank and a half of fuel.....and somehow that is better than and EV? At 310 miles you will get there, plug your car in, or fuel it up, the way batteries work you get about half the range from empty in about 15 minutes.

2) My sister lives 525 miles from me. I can drive there in around 7-7.5 hours, easily. (3 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

And Im sure as you drive you dont stop for lunch or anyting? Charge the car at stops.

3) My grandmother lives 165 miles from me. I can do the drive in 2.5 hours easily. I've had to drive out there unexpected on several instances when she's had issues. Drop of a hat. (less than one tank of fuel in my vehicle)

So Drive there, im not understanding the problem...and i get it. People who don't drive EVs really think this is some kind of hassle, you get over it pretty quickly when you have an EV with a good charging network and a good starting range. The issue is that there are lots of EVs that have bad performance and these have been whipping posts for EV issues. But for every instance where an EV might have a weakness there are scenarios where they are better too.

These are not extraordinary distances. These are easy drives, though Maryland isn't great. None of these trips are worth a plane ticket (Maryland maybe if there is a crazy medical emergency with my nephews - even then, the total time to fly up there would be similar to simply leaving the house).

In any one of these situations, what do I need to do in order to make that drive? Answer: check the tires and oil in my car and leave. Maybe take a piss before I head out. These are simple, economical drives and require zero planning, no rental cars, no time charging, etc. In all of these drives an EV (even one with 200 mile range) would be a no go. I've gone to my grandmother's house to check on her after a fall and driven home the same afternoon so I could go to work. It doesn't matter how long ago I drove my car or what my charge level is at. That's not a consideration. It shouldn't be. Owning a car or personal vehicle shouldn't require that.

I guess don't limit yourself to an ev that only gets 200 miles of range, Or don't get an EV until battery tech gets better which is constantly is, every year they get more range.

I don't need to worry about charging a car at my buddy's, my sister's or my grandmother's house. I don't have to worry about stopping anywhere on the highway to simply refuel and keep going. I can tackle any of these road trips minutes after getting back from any other one of them. In an extreme situation I could toss a couple of 5-gallon tanks in the back of my car and drive for thousands of miles without issue).

Look you can come up with any scenario you want. For the driving habits of the average person a good EV works just fine. I am an extreme case, I live 80 miles from my job, 160 round trip, usually with some errands required for work.....my EV works out just fine. If I have to charge it I go to the charger pop on netflix watch an episode of....whatever, grab a snack, talk on the phone whatever.....usually only need 15 minutes to get a charge of 150 miles to get where I need to go. that charge will cost me about $4 at the charger. I'll admit when I first got my EV i was worried about all sorts of stuff.....but that dissapears. I havn't been to a gas station in almost a year, i rarely use fast charging.....do you know how much time that has saved me over the year?

Would it be nice if I owned several vehicles and one could be a cheap efficient EV? Maybe (and I mean "cheap", not your definition of it). I don't. I own one car. It gives me the freedom to tackle any driving situation with zero concern. Why would I go backwards into an EV and change all of that? I don't care about EV's performance specs. I don't care about the costs. Car maintenance is cheap on my car. My car has been paid off for six years now. I don't care about the environment. My car is a simple basic vehicle, I'm not blasting a V8 diesel everywhere I drive.

Ok well, good, keep your car.....ICE cars will be around for quite some time.....and you will be able to get used ones pretty cheap and resale value on them is going to plummet. Scoop them all up for cheap.

Explain to me how your magical EV suddenly solves this? For the same price as a basic ICE car?

I already have and it does for most people that are currently out buying NEW cars and have normal driving habits

You seem to have an exceptionally biased and narrow view of EV cars. If you presented yourself by saying "Man, I think EVs in the future are going to be a contender"...sure, maybe. Bu tthey're not right now. They're an answer for a very small demographic. I think you can't see outside of your own living situation. Have you considered how an EV benefits a person in South Africa? Venezuela? (good luck they get fuel for free basically...), a random town in Ukraine, or Romania? Under-developed portions of China and India? Or are middle-class/first world drivers and consumers the only thing you're happy to consider?

No, you want to find any bizzaro situation where EVs wont work is all I am seeing here. EVS are selling well in China. Its actually going to be great for these people, they will be able to get used ICE cars at bargain basement prices because everyone else who can get the benifits of EVs is going to be buying them. The price of NEW ICE cars will most likely go up especially leasing. I don't need to wait for the future for EVs to be contenders, they are already contenders. I need no other car and my driving habits are far beyond most peoples.

I'm not sure how else to present this other than: if I were to replace my car with an EV....it would be worse. I'm not sure why that's a difficult thing to understand, or why you don't grasp the backwards move the average EV presents to an average consumer. Buying a product that does less things for more money? It's just been a hugely premature market move. The tech isn't there. Now if you're happy being a test run for the eventual development of a useful and worthwhile EV - grand. Just stop pretending it's an answer for things it can't tackle.

Oh no, I understand that for you an EV is not the answer.....however you feel like because it doesn't work for you means that they don't work period...and you'd be wrong. What you have is a exceptionally biased and narrow view based on your own habits and 0 experience with an EV. According to the average driving habits of drivers EVs fulfill the requirements nicely. And look we are still in the first generation of truly mass produced EVs.....The first truly Mass market EV was delivered only a few years ago......do you somehow think that this is the best there is going to be. We are already seeing EVs in development with over 500 miles of range. You like to say EV only work for a tiny percentage....but I bet if we look at driving habits, it is yours that fall into the tiny percentage.

Just because EVs are not perfect in 100% of the situations does not mean they are not contenders, they work exceptionally well in most circumstances. I'm sure when the horseless carriage first came out there were ways that horses were better.....in fact even today I bet there are instances where horses are better, but we know who won that battle.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Elbows wrote:
Listen Andrew, you have read the following issues before, but you ignore them:

1) An average EV is heavier than a normal ICE powered car. This is a step backwards. (bad for tires, bad for road infrastructure, bad for shipping costs, more fuel spent to ship them around the world)

None Issue, A model 3 weighs 3552 pounds, a chrysler 300 weighs 4380 pounds.....so non issue. Already starting off with a real reach. a toyota corrolla weighs 3000 dry with another 14 gallons of gas at 6 pounds a gallon. HUGE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE THERE!

2) An average EV is still more expensive than an ICE powered car. They're nowhere near as close as you're making them out to be, and less so when you remove the government assistance in reducing the purchase price. This is a step backwards for a car that does less.

Non issue, You can get a model 3 for 35K in the US before any government incentives. All costs considered the cost to own is less then a Toyota corolla after 5 years. except you never see the government incentives included in a Toyota corolla. Gasoline is heavily subsidized and included lots of government incentives. I do love when people talk about EV incentives like ICE cars don't get any. Not to mention the other ways ICE cars cost taxpayers. We go to war for the oil that drives your ICE car. Who pays for that, tax payers!

3) An average EV car has nowhere near the "similar" range to a normal ICE car. My old car can do 380 miles on a tank of fuel...and it's not a particularly fuel efficient one. I'm not sure what cars you're comparing them to...but most ICE cars are now limited to 200-ish miles of range. A turbo-diesel vehicle can run upwards of 650-700 miles on a tank of fuel. This is a step backwards.

None issue According to the BMV the average car ICE car can go 300-400 miles, many EVs can go 300-400 miles. Very few people drive that much in a day, fueling up their car a few times a week. EVs can be charged at home giving you the full charge every morning when you wake up. Not perfect for 100% of the people but more than good enough for most. I guess it depends on what you mean by average, almost half the EVs in the world now are Tesla Model 3s...they are kind of driving the average up i guess.

4) An average EV at the very best charges how fast? 30-45 minutes? An average ICE car is refueled with ease, anywhere on the planet (with an active road network) in 3-4 minutes tops. This is a step backwards.

Again for the most part non issue. I wake up, my car is fully fueled. On long trips use fast charging after a 310 miles its time to take a lunch slash potty break anyway. Its a matter of perspective, I think its backwards to have to look at the gas gauge and wonder if I have to stop for gas today....how much is gas today?

These are not small issues. They're massive. You like to hand-wave them as if they're suddenly going to be fixed by some tremendous leap in technology. Build me a $16K new car with 400 mile range that re-charges in 3-4 minutes and doesn't damage the battery pack in any appreciable way. Seriously, make that car and then when the entire country's infrastructure is set up to support it...then try to sell it to me.

The average price of a new car is slightly over 36K. Evs easily fit in that average.....and are actually cheaper after only 5 years and many times cheaper in the long run, less maintenance, cheaper fuel...and by all accounts should last at least twice as long as an ICE car. I don't care what ICE car you buy, in the end I guarantee you that (barring a collision) at the end of the life of the cars my EV will be many times cheaper that any ICE car you can buy. Its just math and mechanics, less parts. Its like comparing a disk drive to a solid state drive. There are people that still like records, and they have their arguments......the market has shown what happened there.

As for people who don't have access to a parking space with a power source suitable? A ton of people. You do realize that plenty of places in the world people will steal your electricity if it's plugged into your car, right? There are people who live in ghetto neighborhoods who are likely going to wake up with their charge equipment stolen, broken, or simply cut up. There are plenty of people who live in apartment complexes where they have large parking lots that are not going to be revamped for electric cars anytime soon. There are people who live in countries with poor or minimal electrical grids. Why should they embrace an EV? In some countries electricity is far more expensive than the US. In places where renewable energy is being pushed, electricity costs have gone up about 20-30% in the past ten years. What if the electricity demand goes up and prices increase? That shouldn't be an issue here, but could be in many places.

Yes currently some people live in places where an EV wont work for them.....but many more do. As far as vandalism, Teslacam is dealing with that pretty effectively, I would also say most people that live in those situations are not buying New vehicles....but rather used, so its kind of a moot point. By the time these EVs make it to the secondary market in large numbers (they are hardly currently being produced in large numbers) there will be solutions to these issues. If you cant charge at home, by the time EVS really hit mass market.....there will be plenty of options for it.

What about people who travel more than the range of your EV? What's the support network like for them? Here are three simple scenarios from my personal life - what's your answer for them as a single guy who possesses one vehicle?

1) My buddy lives 225 miles from me. I visit him frequently, and he is in a life situation where he could feasibly call me and need help with his wife/kids at a moment's notice. (1.5 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

So your car gets 225 miles in a tank and a half of fuel.....and somehow that is better than and EV? At 310 miles you will get there, plug your car in, or fuel it up, the way batteries work you get about half the range from empty in about 15 minutes.

2) My sister lives 525 miles from me. I can drive there in around 7-7.5 hours, easily. (3 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

And Im sure as you drive you dont stop for lunch or anyting? Charge the car at stops.

3) My grandmother lives 165 miles from me. I can do the drive in 2.5 hours easily. I've had to drive out there unexpected on several instances when she's had issues. Drop of a hat. (less than one tank of fuel in my vehicle)

So Drive there, im not understanding the problem...and i get it. People who don't drive EVs really think this is some kind of hassle, you get over it pretty quickly when you have an EV with a good charging network and a good starting range. The issue is that there are lots of EVs that have bad performance and these have been whipping posts for EV issues. But for every instance where an EV might have a weakness there are scenarios where they are better too.

These are not extraordinary distances. These are easy drives, though Maryland isn't great. None of these trips are worth a plane ticket (Maryland maybe if there is a crazy medical emergency with my nephews - even then, the total time to fly up there would be similar to simply leaving the house).

In any one of these situations, what do I need to do in order to make that drive? Answer: check the tires and oil in my car and leave. Maybe take a piss before I head out. These are simple, economical drives and require zero planning, no rental cars, no time charging, etc. In all of these drives an EV (even one with 200 mile range) would be a no go. I've gone to my grandmother's house to check on her after a fall and driven home the same afternoon so I could go to work. It doesn't matter how long ago I drove my car or what my charge level is at. That's not a consideration. It shouldn't be. Owning a car or personal vehicle shouldn't require that.

I guess don't limit yourself to an ev that only gets 200 miles of range, Or don't get an EV until battery tech gets better which is constantly is, every year they get more range.

I don't need to worry about charging a car at my buddy's, my sister's or my grandmother's house. I don't have to worry about stopping anywhere on the highway to simply refuel and keep going. I can tackle any of these road trips minutes after getting back from any other one of them. In an extreme situation I could toss a couple of 5-gallon tanks in the back of my car and drive for thousands of miles without issue).

Look you can come up with any scenario you want. For the driving habits of the average person a good EV works just fine. I am an extreme case, I live 80 miles from my job, 160 round trip, usually with some errands required for work.....my EV works out just fine. If I have to charge it I go to the charger pop on netflix watch an episode of....whatever, grab a snack, talk on the phone whatever.....usually only need 15 minutes to get a charge of 150 miles to get where I need to go. that charge will cost me about $4 at the charger. I'll admit when I first got my EV i was worried about all sorts of stuff.....but that dissapears. I havn't been to a gas station in almost a year, i rarely use fast charging.....do you know how much time that has saved me over the year?

Would it be nice if I owned several vehicles and one could be a cheap efficient EV? Maybe (and I mean "cheap", not your definition of it). I don't. I own one car. It gives me the freedom to tackle any driving situation with zero concern. Why would I go backwards into an EV and change all of that? I don't care about EV's performance specs. I don't care about the costs. Car maintenance is cheap on my car. My car has been paid off for six years now. I don't care about the environment. My car is a simple basic vehicle, I'm not blasting a V8 diesel everywhere I drive.

Ok well, good, keep your car.....ICE cars will be around for quite some time.....and you will be able to get used ones pretty cheap and resale value on them is going to plummet. Scoop them all up for cheap.

Explain to me how your magical EV suddenly solves this? For the same price as a basic ICE car?

I already have and it does for most people that are currently out buying NEW cars and have normal driving habits

You seem to have an exceptionally biased and narrow view of EV cars. If you presented yourself by saying "Man, I think EVs in the future are going to be a contender"...sure, maybe. Bu tthey're not right now. They're an answer for a very small demographic. I think you can't see outside of your own living situation. Have you considered how an EV benefits a person in South Africa? Venezuela? (good luck they get fuel for free basically...), a random town in Ukraine, or Romania? Under-developed portions of China and India? Or are middle-class/first world drivers and consumers the only thing you're happy to consider?

No, you want to find any bizzaro situation where EVs wont work is all I am seeing here. EVS are selling well in China. Its actually going to be great for these people, they will be able to get used ICE cars at bargain basement prices because everyone else who can get the benifits of EVs is going to be buying them. The price of NEW ICE cars will most likely go up especially leasing. I don't need to wait for the future for EVs to be contenders, they are already contenders. I need no other car and my driving habits are far beyond most peoples.

I'm not sure how else to present this other than: if I were to replace my car with an EV....it would be worse. I'm not sure why that's a difficult thing to understand, or why you don't grasp the backwards move the average EV presents to an average consumer. Buying a product that does less things for more money? It's just been a hugely premature market move. The tech isn't there. Now if you're happy being a test run for the eventual development of a useful and worthwhile EV - grand. Just stop pretending it's an answer for things it can't tackle.

Oh no, I understand that for you an EV is not the answer.....however you feel like because it doesn't work for you means that they don't work period...and you'd be wrong. What you have is a exceptionally biased and narrow view based on your own habits and 0 experience with an EV. According to the average driving habits of drivers EVs fulfill the requirements nicely. And look we are still in the first generation of truly mass produced EVs.....The first truly Mass market EV was delivered only a few years ago......do you somehow think that this is the best there is going to be. We are already seeing EVs in development with over 500 miles of range. You like to say EV only work for a tiny percentage....but I bet if we look at driving habits, it is yours that fall into the tiny percentage.

Just because EVs are not perfect in 100% of the situations does not mean they are not contenders, they work exceptionally well in most circumstances. I'm sure when the horseless carriage first came out there were ways that horses were better.....in fact even today I bet there are instances where horses are better, but we know who won that battle.

https://www.kbb.com/articles/car-news/new-car-and-suv-buyers-guides/

Here's Kelly Blue Books average costs for cars- you'll notice that 36k puts the price not only above most cars, but the average minivan or mid sized SUV. And yes, those are prices for new vehicles.

Electric cars are not cheaper, or comparable to ICE cars to purchase.

Most people these days are buying SUVs, which are heavy.

Range 200 miles is fine. My petrol car will go about 250 to 300 on a tankful depending on conditions.

I've driven a 300+ mile journey twice in the past 30 years, and both times I stopped for a wee, a coffee, and a meal, because it took five or six hours. I could have charged my electric car during those stops.

Slipspace wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Elbows wrote:
Listen Andrew, you have read the following issues before, but you ignore them:

1) An average EV is heavier than a normal ICE powered car. This is a step backwards. (bad for tires, bad for road infrastructure, bad for shipping costs, more fuel spent to ship them around the world)

None Issue, A model 3 weighs 3552 pounds, a chrysler 300 weighs 4380 pounds.....so non issue. Already starting off with a real reach. a toyota corrolla weighs 3000 dry with another 14 gallons of gas at 6 pounds a gallon. HUGE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE THERE!

2) An average EV is still more expensive than an ICE powered car. They're nowhere near as close as you're making them out to be, and less so when you remove the government assistance in reducing the purchase price. This is a step backwards for a car that does less.

Non issue, You can get a model 3 for 35K in the US before any government incentives. All costs considered the cost to own is less then a Toyota corolla after 5 years. except you never see the government incentives included in a Toyota corolla. Gasoline is heavily subsidized and included lots of government incentives. I do love when people talk about EV incentives like ICE cars don't get any. Not to mention the other ways ICE cars cost taxpayers. We go to war for the oil that drives your ICE car. Who pays for that, tax payers!

3) An average EV car has nowhere near the "similar" range to a normal ICE car. My old car can do 380 miles on a tank of fuel...and it's not a particularly fuel efficient one. I'm not sure what cars you're comparing them to...but most ICE cars are now limited to 200-ish miles of range. A turbo-diesel vehicle can run upwards of 650-700 miles on a tank of fuel. This is a step backwards.

None issue According to the BMV the average car ICE car can go 300-400 miles, many EVs can go 300-400 miles. Very few people drive that much in a day, fueling up their car a few times a week. EVs can be charged at home giving you the full charge every morning when you wake up. Not perfect for 100% of the people but more than good enough for most. I guess it depends on what you mean by average, almost half the EVs in the world now are Tesla Model 3s...they are kind of driving the average up i guess.

4) An average EV at the very best charges how fast? 30-45 minutes? An average ICE car is refueled with ease, anywhere on the planet (with an active road network) in 3-4 minutes tops. This is a step backwards.

Again for the most part non issue. I wake up, my car is fully fueled. On long trips use fast charging after a 310 miles its time to take a lunch slash potty break anyway. Its a matter of perspective, I think its backwards to have to look at the gas gauge and wonder if I have to stop for gas today....how much is gas today?

These are not small issues. They're massive. You like to hand-wave them as if they're suddenly going to be fixed by some tremendous leap in technology. Build me a $16K new car with 400 mile range that re-charges in 3-4 minutes and doesn't damage the battery pack in any appreciable way. Seriously, make that car and then when the entire country's infrastructure is set up to support it...then try to sell it to me.

The average price of a new car is slightly over 36K. Evs easily fit in that average.....and are actually cheaper after only 5 years and many times cheaper in the long run, less maintenance, cheaper fuel...and by all accounts should last at least twice as long as an ICE car. I don't care what ICE car you buy, in the end I guarantee you that (barring a collision) at the end of the life of the cars my EV will be many times cheaper that any ICE car you can buy. Its just math and mechanics, less parts. Its like comparing a disk drive to a solid state drive. There are people that still like records, and they have their arguments......the market has shown what happened there.

As for people who don't have access to a parking space with a power source suitable? A ton of people. You do realize that plenty of places in the world people will steal your electricity if it's plugged into your car, right? There are people who live in ghetto neighborhoods who are likely going to wake up with their charge equipment stolen, broken, or simply cut up. There are plenty of people who live in apartment complexes where they have large parking lots that are not going to be revamped for electric cars anytime soon. There are people who live in countries with poor or minimal electrical grids. Why should they embrace an EV? In some countries electricity is far more expensive than the US. In places where renewable energy is being pushed, electricity costs have gone up about 20-30% in the past ten years. What if the electricity demand goes up and prices increase? That shouldn't be an issue here, but could be in many places.

Yes currently some people live in places where an EV wont work for them.....but many more do. As far as vandalism, Teslacam is dealing with that pretty effectively, I would also say most people that live in those situations are not buying New vehicles....but rather used, so its kind of a moot point. By the time these EVs make it to the secondary market in large numbers (they are hardly currently being produced in large numbers) there will be solutions to these issues. If you cant charge at home, by the time EVS really hit mass market.....there will be plenty of options for it.

What about people who travel more than the range of your EV? What's the support network like for them? Here are three simple scenarios from my personal life - what's your answer for them as a single guy who possesses one vehicle?

1) My buddy lives 225 miles from me. I visit him frequently, and he is in a life situation where he could feasibly call me and need help with his wife/kids at a moment's notice. (1.5 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

So your car gets 225 miles in a tank and a half of fuel.....and somehow that is better than and EV? At 310 miles you will get there, plug your car in, or fuel it up, the way batteries work you get about half the range from empty in about 15 minutes.

2) My sister lives 525 miles from me. I can drive there in around 7-7.5 hours, easily. (3 tanks of fuel in my vehicle)

And Im sure as you drive you dont stop for lunch or anyting? Charge the car at stops.

3) My grandmother lives 165 miles from me. I can do the drive in 2.5 hours easily. I've had to drive out there unexpected on several instances when she's had issues. Drop of a hat. (less than one tank of fuel in my vehicle)

So Drive there, im not understanding the problem...and i get it. People who don't drive EVs really think this is some kind of hassle, you get over it pretty quickly when you have an EV with a good charging network and a good starting range. The issue is that there are lots of EVs that have bad performance and these have been whipping posts for EV issues. But for every instance where an EV might have a weakness there are scenarios where they are better too.

These are not extraordinary distances. These are easy drives, though Maryland isn't great. None of these trips are worth a plane ticket (Maryland maybe if there is a crazy medical emergency with my nephews - even then, the total time to fly up there would be similar to simply leaving the house).

In any one of these situations, what do I need to do in order to make that drive? Answer: check the tires and oil in my car and leave. Maybe take a piss before I head out. These are simple, economical drives and require zero planning, no rental cars, no time charging, etc. In all of these drives an EV (even one with 200 mile range) would be a no go. I've gone to my grandmother's house to check on her after a fall and driven home the same afternoon so I could go to work. It doesn't matter how long ago I drove my car or what my charge level is at. That's not a consideration. It shouldn't be. Owning a car or personal vehicle shouldn't require that.

I guess don't limit yourself to an ev that only gets 200 miles of range, Or don't get an EV until battery tech gets better which is constantly is, every year they get more range.

I don't need to worry about charging a car at my buddy's, my sister's or my grandmother's house. I don't have to worry about stopping anywhere on the highway to simply refuel and keep going. I can tackle any of these road trips minutes after getting back from any other one of them. In an extreme situation I could toss a couple of 5-gallon tanks in the back of my car and drive for thousands of miles without issue).

Look you can come up with any scenario you want. For the driving habits of the average person a good EV works just fine. I am an extreme case, I live 80 miles from my job, 160 round trip, usually with some errands required for work.....my EV works out just fine. If I have to charge it I go to the charger pop on netflix watch an episode of....whatever, grab a snack, talk on the phone whatever.....usually only need 15 minutes to get a charge of 150 miles to get where I need to go. that charge will cost me about $4 at the charger. I'll admit when I first got my EV i was worried about all sorts of stuff.....but that dissapears. I havn't been to a gas station in almost a year, i rarely use fast charging.....do you know how much time that has saved me over the year?

Would it be nice if I owned several vehicles and one could be a cheap efficient EV? Maybe (and I mean "cheap", not your definition of it). I don't. I own one car. It gives me the freedom to tackle any driving situation with zero concern. Why would I go backwards into an EV and change all of that? I don't care about EV's performance specs. I don't care about the costs. Car maintenance is cheap on my car. My car has been paid off for six years now. I don't care about the environment. My car is a simple basic vehicle, I'm not blasting a V8 diesel everywhere I drive.

Ok well, good, keep your car.....ICE cars will be around for quite some time.....and you will be able to get used ones pretty cheap and resale value on them is going to plummet. Scoop them all up for cheap.

Explain to me how your magical EV suddenly solves this? For the same price as a basic ICE car?

I already have and it does for most people that are currently out buying NEW cars and have normal driving habits

You seem to have an exceptionally biased and narrow view of EV cars. If you presented yourself by saying "Man, I think EVs in the future are going to be a contender"...sure, maybe. Bu tthey're not right now. They're an answer for a very small demographic. I think you can't see outside of your own living situation. Have you considered how an EV benefits a person in South Africa? Venezuela? (good luck they get fuel for free basically...), a random town in Ukraine, or Romania? Under-developed portions of China and India? Or are middle-class/first world drivers and consumers the only thing you're happy to consider?

No, you want to find any bizzaro situation where EVs wont work is all I am seeing here. EVS are selling well in China. Its actually going to be great for these people, they will be able to get used ICE cars at bargain basement prices because everyone else who can get the benifits of EVs is going to be buying them. The price of NEW ICE cars will most likely go up especially leasing. I don't need to wait for the future for EVs to be contenders, they are already contenders. I need no other car and my driving habits are far beyond most peoples.

I'm not sure how else to present this other than: if I were to replace my car with an EV....it would be worse. I'm not sure why that's a difficult thing to understand, or why you don't grasp the backwards move the average EV presents to an average consumer. Buying a product that does less things for more money? It's just been a hugely premature market move. The tech isn't there. Now if you're happy being a test run for the eventual development of a useful and worthwhile EV - grand. Just stop pretending it's an answer for things it can't tackle.

Oh no, I understand that for you an EV is not the answer.....however you feel like because it doesn't work for you means that they don't work period...and you'd be wrong. What you have is a exceptionally biased and narrow view based on your own habits and 0 experience with an EV. According to the average driving habits of drivers EVs fulfill the requirements nicely. And look we are still in the first generation of truly mass produced EVs.....The first truly Mass market EV was delivered only a few years ago......do you somehow think that this is the best there is going to be. We are already seeing EVs in development with over 500 miles of range. You like to say EV only work for a tiny percentage....but I bet if we look at driving habits, it is yours that fall into the tiny percentage.

Just because EVs are not perfect in 100% of the situations does not mean they are not contenders, they work exceptionally well in most circumstances. I'm sure when the horseless carriage first came out there were ways that horses were better.....in fact even today I bet there are instances where horses are better, but we know who won that battle.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/22/lordstown-motors-endurance-pickup-ev-chassis-motors-factory-tour/

Now here is an interesting company in my own back yard....I'd like to see how they deal with the inherent issues associated with hub motors in full size cars. Thats a lot of unsprung weight and a lot of heavy direct impact on vital components. Being relatively local I'd like to see them succeed, but I have my doubts.

I was thinking about sustainability the other day. How much of a car could be recycled into a new one? And are there developments that can increase this ratio? I ask because I look at the methods needed to make the batteries for EVs and I wonder to myself if that can be kept up. Then I think about hydrogen cars (yes I heard about their problems) and I wonder if hydrogen cars could be close to 100% recyclable?