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 amanita wrote:


Havocs moving and firing without penalty as well as eliminating squad members without heavy weapons is just more of 8th Ed. reducing difficult choices for players.

What hard choices? We had bad to not great choices before. Now we actually can make use of the damn unit all without having to change the cost of the weapons they take (and subsequently the cost of weapons for all other models).

Bharring wrote:
"Havocs moving and firing without penalty as well as eliminating squad members without heavy weapons is just more of 8th Ed. reducing difficult choices for players."

Feels like one more case where GW looked at the success of the design decisions of DoW3 and decided to make 40k more like it.

It's easy to spin it in the exact opposite direction

Moving and firing without penalty provides more ways to deploy and play Havocs, allowing players to deploy them aggressively to take advantage of firing on the move, let's them take full advantage of transports which combos very well with the short ranged but powerful chaincannons. Meanwhile eliminating squad members makes the squad much less forgiving to use, forcing players to utilize LOS blocking terrains and moving into cover to keep Havocs alive, which coincidentally works very well with moving and firing without penalty

I'm not a GW shill but I'm just demonstrating how subjective the effects of these changes can be.

Could you not just have a Nurgle sorcerer cast cloud of flies for the minus 1,and a dark Apostle with his chant to give another minus 1?

I know it's a lot to do to one unit, but it kind of removes any worries about the squad being wiped out early. Hell the priest can use his at the start of the round

 fraser1191 wrote:
Could you not just have a Nurgle sorcerer cast cloud of flies for the minus 1,and a dark Apostle with his chant to give another minus 1?

I know it's a lot to do to one unit, but it kind of removes any worries about the squad being wiped out early. Hell the priest can use his at the start of the round

Then they can't double shoot and no plus 1 to hit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Could you not just have a Nurgle sorcerer cast cloud of flies for the minus 1,and a dark Apostle with his chant to give another minus 1?

I know it's a lot to do to one unit, but it kind of removes any worries about the squad being wiped out early. Hell the priest can use his at the start of the round

Then they can't double shoot and no plus 1 to hit.

If they're BL can't they pop the stratagem to have all 4 marks then?

That would give them at least double shoot on top

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Could you not just have a Nurgle sorcerer cast cloud of flies for the minus 1,and a dark Apostle with his chant to give another minus 1?

I know it's a lot to do to one unit, but it kind of removes any worries about the squad being wiped out early. Hell the priest can use his at the start of the round

Then they can't double shoot and no plus 1 to hit.

If they're BL can't they pop the stratagem to have all 4 marks then?

That would give them at least double shoot on top

Plausible. It's not fool proof and you'd still need another apostle and a lord on top for "max" shooting, but that isn't always everything.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Could you not just have a Nurgle sorcerer cast cloud of flies for the minus 1,and a dark Apostle with his chant to give another minus 1?

I know it's a lot to do to one unit, but it kind of removes any worries about the squad being wiped out early. Hell the priest can use his at the start of the round

Then they can't double shoot and no plus 1 to hit.

If they're BL can't they pop the stratagem to have all 4 marks then?

That would give them at least double shoot on top

Plausible. It's not fool proof and you'd still need another apostle and a lord on top for "max" shooting, but that isn't always everything.

It is a lot of hoops to jump through so I can't see it being too competitive. But I can see 2 hb and 2 of the new chain gun being a solid loadout for them. The chain gun will be at least 20 pts and the HB has the same profile more or less, so they can clear chaff really well while not going overboard

Do CSM even have a way to get up the table like drop pods or we way?

 fraser1191 wrote:


It is a lot of hoops to jump through so I can't see it being too competitive. But I can see 2 hb and 2 of the new chain gun being a solid loadout for them. The chain gun will be at least 20 pts and the HB has the same profile more or less, so they can clear chaff really well while not going overboard

Do CSM even have a way to get up the table like drop pods or we way?

Yea there's the forgeworld drop pod. That would be the only option for deepstrike. 120ish points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


It is a lot of hoops to jump through so I can't see it being too competitive. But I can see 2 hb and 2 of the new chain gun being a solid loadout for them. The chain gun will be at least 20 pts and the HB has the same profile more or less, so they can clear chaff really well while not going overboard

Do CSM even have a way to get up the table like drop pods or we way?

Yea there's the forgeworld drop pod. That would be the only option for deepstrike. 120ish points.

There is also that termite assault drill for 134 base.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Terrax-pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill.pdf

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Rules for 'realisms' sake are cancer. Miniature games are an abstraction and should be based around good gameplay. I don't think realism should ever enter the equation.

Ozomoto wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Rules for 'realisms' sake are cancer. Miniature games are an abstraction and should be based around good gameplay. I don't think realism should ever enter the equation.

If I wanted to play a game that didn't have a simulationist element, I'd play chess or go.

And fundamentally, it is my opinion that an infantry team should not be a superior mobile heavy weapons carrier than a tank. Either the tank should have a weapon suite appreciably more powerful than that an infantry can carry, or the tank should be able to fire it's gun on the move while infantry/artillery have to remain still.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Rules for 'realisms' sake are cancer. Miniature games are an abstraction and should be based around good gameplay. I don't think realism should ever enter the equation.

If I wanted to play a game that didn't have a simulationist element, I'd play chess or go.

And fundamentally, it is my opinion that an infantry team should not be a superior mobile heavy weapons carrier than a tank. Either the tank should have a weapon suite appreciably more powerful than that an infantry can carry, or the tank should be able to fire it's gun on the move while infantry/artillery have to remain still.

Artillery remaining still?

Ever heard of S P A?
Generally speaking the tanks also carry the bigger / better guns soo i don't see your point.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Rules for 'realisms' sake are cancer. Miniature games are an abstraction and should be based around good gameplay. I don't think realism should ever enter the equation.

If I wanted to play a game that didn't have a simulationist element, I'd play chess or go.

And fundamentally, it is my opinion that an infantry team should not be a superior mobile heavy weapons carrier than a tank. Either the tank should have a weapon suite appreciably more powerful than that an infantry can carry, or the tank should be able to fire it's gun on the move while infantry/artillery have to remain still.

Artillery remaining still?

Ever heard of S P A?
Generally speaking the tanks also carry the bigger / better guns soo i don't see your point.

That would be true, if the Battle Cannon didn't have the average performance of a Lascannon, and a Predator didn't literally carry a pair of lascannons. In fact, a Predator has the same number of lascannons as a Havoc squad.

Also, I wasn't talking about SPG's, I was talking about towed AT-guns in the sense of artillery. And as an aside note, SPG's don't fire while mobile [or move, halt, fire, move] either.


Technically, a infantry antitank team with light weapons could move and fire. But infantry antitank weapons are much weaker [and much shorter ranged] than tank guns or towed guns.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


That would be true, if the Battle Cannon didn't have the average performance of a Lascannon, and a Predator didn't literally carry a pair of lascannons. In fact, a Predator has the same number of lascannons as a Havoc squad.

Also, I wasn't talking about SPG's, I was talking about towed AT-guns in the sense of artillery. And as an aside note, SPG's don't fire while mobile [or move, halt, fire, move] either.


Technically, a infantry antitank team with light weapons could move and fire. But infantry antitank weapons are much weaker [and much shorter ranged] than tank guns or towed guns.

A thought occurs.

A single apostle makes all my tanks 3+/5++. Might be interesting to run 3 vindicators.

Is it possible to use smoke and linebreaker at the same time? It seems to be plausible...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


That would be true, if the Battle Cannon didn't have the average performance of a Lascannon, and a Predator didn't literally carry a pair of lascannons. In fact, a Predator has the same number of lascannons as a Havoc squad.

Also, I wasn't talking about SPG's, I was talking about towed AT-guns in the sense of artillery. And as an aside note, SPG's don't fire while mobile [or move, halt, fire, move] either.


Technically, a infantry antitank team with light weapons could move and fire. But infantry antitank weapons are much weaker [and much shorter ranged] than tank guns or towed guns.

A thought occurs.

A single apostle makes all my tanks 3+/5++. Might be interesting to run 3 vindicators.

Is it possible to use smoke and linebreaker at the same time? It seems to be plausible...

RAW, yes. Check your TO, though, if at a tournament, and if not, ask your opponent-some people might see it as a jerk move.

 JNAProductions wrote:


RAW, yes. Check your TO, though, if at a tournament, and if not, ask your opponent-some people might see it as a jerk move.

Yea, I'd probably never do it. Too much of a dirty trick even for me, I suppose.

 Irbis wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma is scared of the dark.

Yup, because plasma never getting hot in past edition if you hated someone enough was sooo much more logical.

Oh wait

That actually makes more sense just because its 40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Rules for 'realisms' sake are cancer. Miniature games are an abstraction and should be based around good gameplay. I don't think realism should ever enter the equation.

If I wanted to play a game that didn't have a simulationist element, I'd play chess or go.

And fundamentally, it is my opinion that an infantry team should not be a superior mobile heavy weapons carrier than a tank. Either the tank should have a weapon suite appreciably more powerful than that an infantry can carry, or the tank should be able to fire it's gun on the move while infantry/artillery have to remain still.

Artillery remaining still?

Ever heard of S P A?
Generally speaking the tanks also carry the bigger / better guns soo i don't see your point.

That would be true, if the Battle Cannon didn't have the average performance of a Lascannon, and a Predator didn't literally carry a pair of lascannons. In fact, a Predator has the same number of lascannons as a Havoc squad.

Also, I wasn't talking about SPG's, I was talking about towed AT-guns in the sense of artillery. And as an aside note, SPG's don't fire while mobile [or move, halt, fire, move] either.


Technically, a infantry antitank team with light weapons could move and fire. But infantry antitank weapons are much weaker [and much shorter ranged] than tank guns or towed guns.

Tanks can definatley fire on the move at full accuracy these days. Artillery though? I dont think artillery ever fire on the move... So yeah, I dont know what that guy is talking about

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
When Havocs being able to move wins every top table maybe someone will care. Until then they’re a power armoured unit with no ablative wounds. They’ll die to a stiff breeze, no?

Why would they not have any ablative wounds? Current datasheet allows them to be in squads of up to 10.

Overall the unit seems pretty good. The Reaper Chaincannon is an awesome weapon but against a lot of targets it's still worse than a Grav Cannon. Move and Fire is great. I'm wondering if that's going to be given to the loyalists at some point, or if that's considered a balance against the loyalist Signum+Cherub+Stratagems.

He'res hoping Move and Fire is given to Terminators at the same time.

The some reason DR have only 1 wound. If you have units that can do a lot of dmg and are super hard to remove it will be broken.
Havocs look really good, with heavy bolters they are cheap enough and have decent dmg and with the cannons you can really blow something up.
With Abaddon they can reroll all hits and with the detachment reroll wounds on 1 and if you can use veterans on than +1 to wound and you can even reroll damage rolls.
It`s CP hungry but useful if you want to remove something really tough.

The thing that constantly amazes me is that no one takes the SM artillery....whirlwinds? I mean, it's 90pts of basically Basalisk or super powered mortar squads. Did they nerf this thing or did I miss an update? 72" of 2d3 shots at s7 ap1 2d? OR for 5 points les it's 2d6 shots at s6 ap0 d1? How is that not taken over loading out dets of mortar squads?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The thing that constantly amazes me is that no one takes the SM artillery....whirlwinds? I mean, it's 90pts of basically Basalisk or super powered mortar squads. Did they nerf this thing or did I miss an update? 72" of 2d3 shots at s7 ap1 2d? OR for 5 points les it's 2d6 shots at s6 ap0 d1? How is that not taken over loading out dets of mortar squads?

A Basilisk is S9 and is therefore dramatically more effective against armour than S7.

As for S6/AP0/D1 you could pay 85pts for 2d6 shots of that or you could pay 85pts for, what, 5d6 shots at S4/AP0/D1 off of Guard mortars.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The thing that constantly amazes me is that no one takes the SM artillery....whirlwinds? I mean, it's 90pts of basically Basalisk or super powered mortar squads. Did they nerf this thing or did I miss an update? 72" of 2d3 shots at s7 ap1 2d? OR for 5 points les it's 2d6 shots at s6 ap0 d1? How is that not taken over loading out dets of mortar squads?

A Basilisk is S9 and is therefore dramatically more effective against armour than S7.

As for S6/AP0/D1 you could pay 85pts for 2d6 shots of that or you could pay 85pts for, what, 5d6 shots at S4/AP0/D1 off of Guard mortars.

Except one dies if you look at it funny, and one is t7 with 10 wounds.

Isn't the entire point of indirect weapons that they're very hard to look at in any manner at all, funnily or not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Isn't the entire point of indirect weapons that they're very hard to look at in any manner at all, funnily or not?

Let me put it this way, which would you rather have alone in the backfield, 3x T3 units with 2 wounds, or a few t7 units with 11 wounds?

But still, what is the reason no one uses them in any list ever?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

But still, what is the reason no one uses them in any list ever?

Because they (Whirlwinds) don't really add much to the SM-army?
I use my Whirlwind fairly often, but it doesn't really do much (and I don't expect it to.)
It's cheap though.

The Castellan Launcher averages 7 Assault Cannon shots.
The Vengeance Launcher averages 4 Autocannon shots.

Are Space Marines in short supply of Assault Cannon and/or Autocannon-shots?
I don't really find myself in a position where I think so.
The Vengeance is decent for hunting light vehicles, but I often have that covered already.

The Whirlwind isn't bad, it's just not great either, which means you're unlikely to see it much in non-casual metas.

 chimeara wrote:
I for one love this new rule. Really gives me a reason to buy a ton more havocs for my IW.

Thats the reason why.....

 MinscS2 wrote:

The Castellan Launcher averages 7 Assault Cannon shots.

Not even that, as the Castellan Launcher has 0 AP.

My main issue with Whirlwinds that I find is that although they're cheap, for a few more points you can get a Razorback with better firepower. 12 Real Assault Cannon shots, or two Lascannon shots. Oftentimes that feels like a better choice. I do like the Vengeance though, and the four indirect Autocannon shots isn't exactly bad.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

But still, what is the reason no one uses them in any list ever?

Because they (Whirlwinds) don't really add much to the SM-army?
I use my Whirlwind fairly often, but it doesn't really do much (and I don't expect it to.)
It's cheap though.

The Castellan Launcher averages 7 Assault Cannon shots.
The Vengeance Launcher averages 4 Autocannon shots.

Are Space Marines in short supply of Assault Cannon and/or Autocannon-shots?
I don't really find myself in a position where I think so.
The Vengeance is decent for hunting light vehicles, but I often have that covered already.

The Whirlwind isn't bad, it's just not great either, which means you're unlikely to see it much in non-casual metas.

I guess my response to that then would be for all the non-AM armies to quit their bitching about not having anything as "overpowered" as Mortar teams. SMs have great Indirect fires. I am sick of seeing Mortar teams brought up as this singular unit in the entire game. It's the same argument as Havocs. They are no where near CSMs best source of dakka. People are crying foul over their new rules and I honestly don't see the problem taking down what amounts to Terminators with Assault cannons.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

The Castellan Launcher averages 7 Assault Cannon shots.

Not even that, as the Castellan Launcher has 0 AP.

Heh, you're right. I knew that. April Fools!

...

No but seriously, the Castellan is just plain bad. The Vengeance is decent if you want some indirect autocannon shots but...meh.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

The Castellan Launcher averages 7 Assault Cannon shots.

Not even that, as the Castellan Launcher has 0 AP.

Heh, you're right. I knew that. April Fools!

...

No but seriously, the Castellan is just plain bad. The Vengeance is decent if you want some indirect autocannon shots but...meh.

Wait, what? 72" of Indirect 2d6 s6 d1 shots is bad? What on Super Kami Dende's green butt do you call good for 85 pts?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Wait, what? 72" of Indirect 2d6 s6 d1 shots is bad? What on Super Kami Dende's green butt do you call good for 85 pts?

Like I said above: It's cheap and I don't expect it to do much.
2D6 S6 shots for 85 points sounds amazing, then you do the math: 7 shots average, 4,67 hits, 3,11 wounds against T4, 1,03 after a 3+ save. (1 dead MEQ.)

As far as killing moderately heavy infantry goes, the Castellan Launcher is pretty lackluster.
If you want to kill light infantry there are better ways to spend those points, and regular bolters performs just fine.

The Vengeance Launcher is ironically almost as good at killing MEQ's as the Castellan Launcher (averaging 0,89 wounds), but is far superiour against multi-wound models.

As far as your question goes: The Hunter is really good for it's low cost. It's essentially a Lascannon with re-roll to hit (and +1 against Fly), mounted on a T8 chassi.
Apples and Oranges however, as it's worse than the Whirlwind at dealing with light infantry, I'll give it that.