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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Infantry Squads need to be bumped up to 6ppm, or 5ppm and commanders up to 40ppm.

Then how do you price Militarum Tempestus? I don’t hear whining about them, and they use all the same mechanics in pure detachments. Tempestor Primes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Infantry Squads need to be bumped up to 6ppm, or 5ppm and commanders up to 40ppm.

Veterans probably need to go back up to 6ppm as well. They're absurd at 5ppm, the only saving grace being their lack of obsec. Commanders should probably be 40ppm, Guardsmen at 5ppm and Veterans at 6ppm.

But, as mentioned, this argument will get no traction with Guard players who would rather reboot the entire edition rather than pay extra for these units.

Then how do you price Militarum Tempestus? Considering they use all the same mechanics in pure detachments, but no one is whining about them.

 blackmage wrote:

 inirlan wrote:
Cultists without legion traits and 5ppm? I think R&H looks slightly better now. Barely.

did you really play cultists for legion traits (in particular black legion)? you took them cause they are an horde rerolling anything to hit and immune to morale, who care of bl traits? maybe alpha legion but for the rest no one cared of legion traits.

Indeed, if morale immunity would be wanted on blobs, r&h can provide it with 50 strong squads.
The key problem was the aura of abbadon + stratagem + traits.

If it were not then you would see a lot more R&H fielded.

 inirlan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tyranid infantry would really like to talk about being overcosted.

A hormagaunt is 5 points and doesn't even have a gun. 2 str 3 attacking in CC with a 6+ save. They have a special pile in move you never get to use because they are dead. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A GUN.

On the flip side, they are normally immune to morale, which probably accounts for that cost. (See : poxwalkers)

Poxwalkers have that built into their cost though is the difference.

As a Guard player, I wouldn't mind an increase in points for Guardsmen and Vets. Even Company Commanders too.

Heck, I've wanted an excuse to bash some GSC and my leftover Cadian bits into Conscripts for some time.

I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

Tygre wrote:
I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

No, even going 1 point higher is too much.

Infantry Squads cannot and should not be changed unless it is accompanied by a boost to Carapace Armor instead of Flak.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

No, even going 1 point higher is too much.

Infantry Squads cannot and should not be changed unless it is accompanied by a boost to Carapace Armor instead of Flak.

Yet you flew off the handle when I suggested half a point via making the Sergeant an extra 5 points for ease of bookkeeping.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

No, even going 1 point higher is too much.

Infantry Squads cannot and should not be changed unless it is accompanied by a boost to Carapace Armor instead of Flak.

Well I did say "most" not "all".

5ppm cultists are now officially worse than kroot. Even the tau have better melee chaff now.

Maybe they will give them better stats in the Traitor Guard army they seem to be creating?

techsoldaten wrote:
Part of how I justified the cost of Cultists was the chance large squads can be returned to full health. This cap (and the nice models coming out of Shadowspear) makes the case for using Renegades and Heretics going forward.

If you're upset at Cultist rules, you're going to be appalled when you get hold of Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

5 point cultists are just proof GW intends to give us a Hereticus Millitarium codex soon

5 point cultists would be fine if guardsmen were 5 points. And I'm sure anyone factoring in the buffs you can give cultists, I could go back through their post history and find them saying you can't judge the efficacy of guardsmen with the assumption they have orders.

BrianDavion wrote:
5 point cultists are just proof GW intends to give us a Hereticus Millitarium codex soon

Fingers crossed

 Kanluwen wrote:

So how many points per model should Marines be paying for a -1 to be hit?

And "the cost of Voice of Command" IS tied up in the Officers. We're talking about 5W with a 5+/5++ save and a Laspistol for 30ppm on the HQs.

You want higher priced Officers? I want actual wargear that frigging matters. I want to buy Artillery Strikes, I want to buy Sniper Rifles, I want to buy a fricking Baneblade for 'em.

And what unit traits are those again?

Yeah, we get "better weapon options". We also are static for the amount of those weapons--2 models become a HWT, 1 can take a Special. I have to burn Command Points to get squad sizes higher than 10.

Not even remotely true. The price bump was because of Conscript blobs that got made "fearless" by Commissars. Both of those are absolutely 100% nerfed now.
.

How much <chapter> or <legion> should cost is fair question, because it shouldn't be free either. However, it's fair to say that up at the astartes/nobz end of the spectrum, 1 point per model up or down is far less of a big deal, as is saying 1 point per model is nominally assigned to a trait.
Nor am I suggesting guard shouldn't get <regiment> (the trait I was talking about) or that they need to go up in cost.

I was agreeing that the value of orders is tied up in the officer, not in the guard infantry's cost - and if support characters are included, more chaos characters have reroll auras than you can shake a pointy stick at (something guard are shy on aside from unit-by-unit orders, catachan-only Harker and Yarrick). But similarly, their value is in the price of those units and, like orders, also not relevant.

Conscripts were increased in price for a swathe of reasons - commissars and orders and for that matter priests. Big units are a far bigger deal with Fix Bayonets, for example.
As noted, with combined squads eating command points, they're the only way to field 20-30 man units by default. Making them the same price means that the percieved value of being able to get a 30 man squad versus a 10 man squad (to GW) is equivalent to dropping from WS/BS4+ to WS/BS5+. Raw Recruits just makes the number of people you issue orders to per order balance out; 10 in an infantry squad, ~15 (on average) with conscripts.

Meanwhile - back at the point....... The point is that Cultists - with a 30 man squad size - need to be compared principally to Conscripts, not Guardsmen. Guard infantry squads aren't really that relevant. Yes, they're more expensive than Conscripts but they're pretty much better at everything else - higher WS, BS, the options of flamers, stubbers, and blades/pistols, and an in-built squad leader with a marginally less awful Ld.

The only thing they really miss out on relative to the conscripts is Sv5+ (which does matter in large numbers against bolters and blades) and <regiment>. So the question is, are they better enough than conscripts to justify an extra point per model?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
5 point cultists are just proof GW intends to give us a Hereticus Millitarium codex soon

Fingers crossed

ignoring the pricing of cultists there's some good evidance for it, the existance of models in the first place being one of them. GW's also been on a tear ressurecting old concepts etc, and frankly traitor guard are a pretty damn popular one. another big evidance is that the vigilus ablaze book referances "Hereticus millitarium" maybe it's just me but I think GW would just list units as cultists etc and not give them a specific name and examples of unit names if they weren't planning on going somewhere with it

Well, if they do they will hopefully incorporate some of the old R&H models. I'm happy, but at the same time angry if I end up with stuff I spent a lot on that I can't use.

BrianDavion wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
5 point cultists are just proof GW intends to give us a Hereticus Millitarium codex soon

Fingers crossed

ignoring the pricing of cultists there's some good evidance for it, the existance of models in the first place being one of them. GW's also been on a tear ressurecting old concepts etc, and frankly traitor guard are a pretty damn popular one. another big evidance is that the vigilus ablaze book referances "Hereticus millitarium" maybe it's just me but I think GW would just list units as cultists etc and not give them a specific name and examples of unit names if they weren't planning on going somewhere with it

One can hope, considering there are 14 regiments in total on Vigilus, depending on regiments size that are between 140000- 1'400'000 traitors.

Tbf it seems like most of the armies with a less than military professional/racial competency in soldiering troops/race in its codex are getting them relegated to the support roles they are. Just means the cultists are like grots now, at least you get strategems other than we die now lol haha. Yeah guardsmen need fixing but at least chaos are getting time in the sun again.

Karfang wrote:
Tbf it seems like most of the armies with a less than military professional/racial competency in soldiering troops/race in its codex are getting them relegated to the support roles they are. Just means the cultists are like grots now, at least you get strategems other than we die now lol haha. Yeah guardsmen need fixing but at least chaos are getting time in the sun again.

Guardsmen at 5 points but Conscripts don't get regimental doctrines would be a good way to make arguments for taking either unit...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
5 point cultists are just proof GW intends to give us a Hereticus Millitarium codex soon

Fingers crossed

Gods I would HATE that they purposely left Cultists awful just to sell a new Cultist +1 in a new chaos codex. That's a 7th ed move GW and you know it!

I don't think there should be a model in the game below 5 pts.

A toughness 1 model with a single wound and no shooting or melee is still worth that for the table space it takes up in screening, etc..

If it's a troop choice and can be used to fill a battalion, it should probably be 6 or 7 points minimum.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't think there should be a model in the game below 5 pts.

A toughness 1 model with a single wound and no shooting or melee is still worth that for the table space it takes up in screening, etc..

If it's a troop choice and can be used to fill a battalion, it should probably be 6 or 7 points minimum.

So you really tbunk a gretchin with str and t 2, ws5+ bs4+ and a str3 pistol needs to be 6 or 7 points just for battalion tax when even a sneeze kills them? Come on man yeah some stuff needs points tweaking but thats just dumb

The Salt Mine wrote:
They are still a horde unit that can be buffed and made immune to moral.

They've fallen to Chaos - of course morals aren't a problem any more.

 inirlan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tyranid infantry would really like to talk about being overcosted.

A hormagaunt is 5 points and doesn't even have a gun. 2 str 3 attacking in CC with a 6+ save. They have a special pile in move you never get to use because they are dead. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A GUN.

On the flip side, they are normally immune to morale, which probably accounts for that cost. (See : poxwalkers)

They are only immune to morale while in synapse. And the same thought was probably made when they priced the synapse creatures too "This guy makes everything around him immune to morale! Let's price him a little higher". It should be one of the two, not both.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

No, even going 1 point higher is too much.

Infantry Squads cannot and should not be changed unless it is accompanied by a boost to Carapace Armor instead of Flak.

Yet you flew off the handle when I suggested half a point via making the Sergeant an extra 5 points for ease of bookkeeping.

What does a Sergeant bring to a squad to make them worth "an extra 5 points"?

A Laspistol and 1 LD. That's not "an extra 5 points". That's not even an extra point.

Leave my guard point costs alone.

Why are we even discussing guard again? Thought the topic was cultists.

When 8th edition started guardsman were really good for the points already. You compared them to cultists, ork boys, conscripts and a few other units they were a no brainer to take and probably undercosted at the time. Now ork boyz went up, conscripts went up and cultists went up.. but the guarsmen are still the same and somehow Veterans went down. should really be conscripts- 4ppm, guardsman- 5ppm, veterans- 6ppm in my opinion. You will still at that point see guardsman around bubble wrapping things but you might also see other things like mechanicum bubblewrap as they would be more comparable in points to performance.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
When 8th edition started guardsman were really good for the points already. You compared them to cultists, ork boys, conscripts and a few other units they were a no brainer to take and probably undercosted at the time. Now ork boyz went up, conscripts went up and cultists went up.. but the guarsmen are still the same and somehow Veterans went down. should really be conscripts- 4ppm, guardsman- 5ppm, veterans- 6ppm in my opinion. You will still at that point see guardsman around bubble wrapping things but you might also see other things like mechanicum bubblewrap as they would be more comparable in points to performance.

Do you see anyone using veterans? They are way too expensive for what they do and how little survivability they have, especially paying bs 3+ prices for a Meltaguns instead of bs 4+. Especially when the difference between those are equal to a whole nother guardsman