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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


TBH ever since the Index Chaos had the tendency to include the Stratagem cost moreso then other armies, same with synergy.
"Oh but Oblierators are so good with Slaanesh their increased cost does nothing against them" meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike.

Rinse and repeat for the rest of the book. CSM units don't stand alone and you feel it. It's kinda like all competitive marines lists requiring Gulliman.

That's everything.

You don't take a Valiant - you take a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath.
You need commanders with your IS.
Doom is required for haywire to really do work.
You're not running grotesques or talos without a haemonculus.
etc
etc
etc

Infantry squads already function without the Commanders though. That's the difference.
Then the key is how cheap Commanders are.

"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cultists got nerfed. With a 6+ save only but a decent shooting attack they are worth 5 points. They never should have gotten VOtLW and VOtLW needs to get a nerf to only affect your next attack action anyways getting 2-3 rounds of shooting out of it is blatantly broken for 1 CP. That or it can cost 3 CP like the Tau +1 to wound stratagem. With this infantry are probably worth 6 points. Man...how much of the games issues would be fixed if common sense was put into pointing units.

How about we chop off a leg from each Chaos Marine while we're at it?

Do you think it's fair that a stratagem get used 3 times while only paying for it once?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

No one takes specials on infantry anyways...a 4 point shoot twice lasgun is better than just about anything they can take anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Solution to your marine army, TAKE GULLIMAN and never complain about it , Deal?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

Are they also somehow: Grenade launchers, Meltas, PG's, Sniperrifles,?
No?

Then no.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Ask ANY Chaos player. Literally anyone. Ask them if they prefer Marks as they are now, or Marks as they were (Tzeentch:+1 invul, Nurgle: +1 toughness etc). Don't speak about Marks of Chaos as they are "bonuses" when they used to actually provide useful abilities every single edition before GW decided to just make them into a cool tatoo on the models. Especially when the chaos daemons kept their abilities of their marks just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cultists got nerfed. With a 6+ save only but a decent shooting attack they are worth 5 points. They never should have gotten VOtLW and VOtLW needs to get a nerf to only affect your next attack action anyways getting 2-3 rounds of shooting out of it is blatantly broken for 1 CP. That or it can cost 3 CP like the Tau +1 to wound stratagem. With this infantry are probably worth 6 points. Man...how much of the games issues would be fixed if common sense was put into pointing units.

How about we chop off a leg from each Chaos Marine while we're at it?

Do you think it's fair that a stratagem get used 3 times while only paying for it once?

Do you think it's fair that guardsmen are 4ppm and cultists are 5ppm?

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Take all your Marines as Ultramarines and bring Roboute every time!

One would figure you'd be more sympathetic, but I guess I was wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Reminder that Grots are 3ppm.
Your modified Conscrpits and Cultists are still far better than Grots.
4ppm would be fair.

Grots are a weird one in that it's blatantly obvious that the unit has the effectiveness of the Grot Shield stratagem baked into their points.

I've wondered for awhile if it was intended to be an ability rather than a stratagem.

Grots super small stature is part of their point cost -- it is easier to hide them out of sight then any other unit (except maybe brimstone's?) So for backfield objective grabbers they are amazing against anything that isn't a mortar, and at 30pts a squad, are still cheap enough that you can take 3 squads below a 100 pts.

Pleasestop wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Reminder that Grots are 3ppm.
Your modified Conscrpits and Cultists are still far better than Grots.
4ppm would be fair.

Grots are a weird one in that it's blatantly obvious that the unit has the effectiveness of the Grot Shield stratagem baked into their points.

I've wondered for awhile if it was intended to be an ability rather than a stratagem.

Grots super small stature is part of their point cost -- it is easier to hide them out of sight then any other unit (except maybe brimstone's?) So for backfield objective grabbers they are amazing against anything that isn't a mortar, and at 30pts a squad, are still cheap enough that you can take 3 squads below a 100 pts.

It's a bit sad actually, due to a Combination of grotz beeing small and remaining 3ppm whilest ork boyz went up they are now the core for Ork CP.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

So Tempestor Primes are worth 50 points in your head?

 Apple Peel wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

So Tempestor Primes are worth 50 points in your head?

I doubt anyone gives any thought for the Scions in such discussions. ALso their whole stick of suicide dropping makes them annoying. So double win?

I don't think so.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

Are they also somehow: Grenade launchers, Meltas, PG's, Sniperrifles,?
No?

Then no.

Just because the range isn't as extensive, doesn't mean that there are no special weapons available to Cultists at present, no matter how hard you would like to push that narrative.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

Are they also somehow: Grenade launchers, Meltas, PG's, Sniperrifles,?
No?

Then no.

Just because the range isn't as extensive, doesn't mean that there are no special weapons available to Cultists at present, no matter how hard you would like to push that narrative.

To drop access from Special weapons, you first need access to special weapons and not select few.
That is my point.
I am not pushing a narrative, i am stating a fact.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

So Tempestor Primes are worth 50 points in your head?

I doubt anyone gives any thought for the Scions in such discussions. ALso their whole stick of suicide dropping makes them annoying. So double win?

I don't think so.

It doesn’t really matter whether or not most people think about them or not. They are there and need to be considered when people say things like “nerf orders” or “add 10 points to units that can give orders.”

People don’t consider the consequences of these things. That’s why I’m glad GW didn’t listen to everything any random on the internet says regarding balancing.

Someone says nerf orders. Are orders a problem on Scions or Conscripts?
Do Tempestor Primes need to be 55 points per model to issue two orders, considering they also pay 5 points for a second order while giving up a pistol?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Ask ANY Chaos player. Literally anyone. Ask them if they prefer Marks as they are now, or Marks as they were (Tzeentch:+1 invul, Nurgle: +1 toughness etc). Don't speak about Marks of Chaos as they are "bonuses" when they used to actually provide useful abilities every single edition before GW decided to just make them into a cool tatoo on the models. Especially when the chaos daemons kept their abilities of their marks just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cultists got nerfed. With a 6+ save only but a decent shooting attack they are worth 5 points. They never should have gotten VOtLW and VOtLW needs to get a nerf to only affect your next attack action anyways getting 2-3 rounds of shooting out of it is blatantly broken for 1 CP. That or it can cost 3 CP like the Tau +1 to wound stratagem. With this infantry are probably worth 6 points. Man...how much of the games issues would be fixed if common sense was put into pointing units.

How about we chop off a leg from each Chaos Marine while we're at it?

Do you think it's fair that a stratagem get used 3 times while only paying for it once?

Do you think it's fair that guardsmen are 4ppm and cultists are 5ppm?

I literally just said infantry should be 6 points if a cultist is 5.

Marks used to cost points too - so you were paying for the stat. It also just made chaos units marines plus one. Which is also unfair. Currently marks are just stratagem permissions - which unfortunately is one of the most powerful things in the game right now. Slaanesh Oblitz literally do 2x the damage as regular oblitz...they pay nothing for that right - there is no cost associated except the command points.

Don't blame me, i know they exist.
Also conscripts only half the time understand what their leader is telling them, like lobotomized little cattle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Infantry squads already function without the Commanders though. That's the difference.
Then the key is how cheap Commanders are.

But you'll never see such a thing, because IS without a commander is meh.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

So Tempestor Primes are worth 50 points in your head?

I doubt anyone gives any thought for the Scions in such discussions. ALso their whole stick of suicide dropping makes them annoying. So double win?

I don't think so.

It doesn’t really matter whether or not most people think about them or not. They are there and need to be considered when people say things like “nerf orders” or “add 10 points to units that can give orders.”

People don’t consider the consequences of these things. That’s why I’m glad GW didn’t listen to everything any random on the internet says regarding balancing.

Someone says nerf orders. Are orders a problem on Scions or Conscripts?
Do Tempestor Primes need to be 55 points per model to issue two orders, considering they also pay 5 points for a second order while giving up a pistol?

It doesn't really matter whether or not most people think about other marks of chaos. Other marks are there and they need to be considered when people say things like "slaanesh oblits can shoot twice" or "slaanesh havoks".

 Apple Peel wrote:
It doesn’t really matter whether or not most people think about them or not. They are there and need to be considered when people say things like “nerf orders” or “add 10 points to units that can give orders.”

I don't see a problem, they can order Guardsmen around just like any other commander. Just because you'll generally group them up with Scions doesn't change that. You want to make it so they can only issue orders to Scions, sure, keep it at 40 points.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Do Tempestor Primes need to be 55 points per model to issue two orders, considering they also pay 5 points for a second order while giving up a pistol?

Clearly you have a strong grasp of the math involved. Also, I assume this is not the same pistol that you all seem to describe as 'useless'?

This entitlement that AM players have about Orders being free is absurd.

Actually, they're pretty damn good still, as my company commander got demoted to a platoon commander to make room for command russ. Orders are just icing. So are the lasguns, to be honest. Guardsmen are worth 4 ppm with no guns. I'd take them.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
It doesn’t really matter whether or not most people think about them or not. They are there and need to be considered when people say things like “nerf orders” or “add 10 points to units that can give orders.”

I don't see a problem, they can order Guardsmen around just like any other commander. Just because you'll generally group them up with Scions doesn't change that. You want to make it so they can only issue orders to Scions, sure, keep it at 40 points.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Do Tempestor Primes need to be 55 points per model to issue two orders, considering they also pay 5 points for a second order while giving up a pistol?

Clearly you have a strong grasp of the math involved. Also, I assume this is not the same pistol that you all seem to describe as 'useless'?

This entitlement that AM players have about Orders being free is absurd.

Tempestor Prime can’t issue orders to guardsmen, only Scions. It’s <Regiment> infantry. Militarum Tempestus replaces <regiment>.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestor Prime can’t issue orders to guardsmen, only Scions. It’s <Regiment> infantry. Militarum Tempestus replaces <regiment>.

Super, then I've already covered this.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
It doesn’t really matter whether or not most people think about them or not. They are there and need to be considered when people say things like “nerf orders” or “add 10 points to units that can give orders.”

I don't see a problem, they can order Guardsmen around just like any other commander. Just because you'll generally group them up with Scions doesn't change that. You want to make it so they can only issue orders to Scions, sure, keep it at 40 points.

Do you even know how the Orders mechanic works?

Voice of Command, Codex Astra Militarum pg 85 wrote:This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <Regiment> keyword as this unit.

Tempestor Primes can already only issue Orders to Scions. This was part of the whole nonsense surrounding the GSC and their Brood Brothers rules at the outset, as it meant that the <Regiment> tag(or if you didn't have it, Auxilia/Militarum Tempestus) got replaced with Brood Brothers allowing for Tempestors to do things there that they normally can't. It also meant that Ogryns and Ratlings could receive Orders, which they aren't supposed to.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Do Tempestor Primes need to be 55 points per model to issue two orders, considering they also pay 5 points for a second order while giving up a pistol?

Clearly you have a strong grasp of the math involved. Also, I assume this is not the same pistol that you all seem to describe as 'useless'?

This entitlement that AM players have about Orders being free is absurd.

Nobody has suggested that Orders are "free". It's widely considered that is mostly why Platoon Commanders to Company Commanders is a 10 pt jump, despite the same equipment and basically the same statline(+1LD, +1W on the Company Commander vs Platoon).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestor Prime can’t issue orders to guardsmen, only Scions. It’s <Regiment> infantry. Militarum Tempestus replaces <regiment>.

Super, then I've already covered this.

So your ok with just changing the weight of certain mechanics for different units? That would make balance harder.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

Erm - flamers are definitely a special weapon, and I'm guessing Kan would be referring to heavy stubbers as well.

Are they also somehow: Grenade launchers, Meltas, PG's, Sniperrifles,?
No?

Then no.

Just because the range isn't as extensive, doesn't mean that there are no special weapons available to Cultists at present, no matter how hard you would like to push that narrative.

To drop access from Special weapons, you first need access to special weapons and not select few.
That is my point.
I am not pushing a narrative, i am stating a fact.

Access to any special weapons is, shockingly enough, access to special weapons - even if you only have a very, very limited subset of options generally referred to as special weapons.

Alternatively, we could say that Space Marine Tactical Squads have no access to special weapons, as they don't get grenade launchers...

I do always forget that IS could take a Sniper Rifle if they wanted to - not entirely sure when I'd want to consider it, though.

 Apple Peel wrote:
So your ok with just changing the weight of certain mechanics for different units? That would make balance harder.

I'm aware that there is no data, no argument, no fact in all the universe up to the heat death of the sun that would change your position.

That's all I need.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
So your ok with just changing the weight of certain mechanics for different units? That would make balance harder.

I'm aware that there is no data, no argument, no fact in all the universe up to the heat death of the sun that would change your position.

That's all I need.

Lot of assumptions there.

Wow, you guys sure do like to start fights about IG commanders vs. X units.

To the original point, I am completely ok with the change to Cultists. That being said, they should get a completely special Word Bearers buff if your whole army is Word Bearers.

Fanatical Devotion/Chant - All infantry units in this army get +1 to their Leadership, and +1 to their save rolls while receiving overwatch attacks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Take all your Marines as Ultramarines and bring Roboute every time!

One would figure you'd be more sympathetic, but I guess I was wrong.

It's a vanilla marine problem. Can't really mix because reroll auras don't cross over. Chaos gets around it by it's stratagems being linked to marks and not legion traits (some are but most aren't) It's part of the reason CSM isn't as bad as SM.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike."

Man don't even talk about a mark like it's something meaningful. It is a arbitrary rule that gives bonuses for no negative. Unlike a chapter trait which can not be mixed within detachments. Solution...take all of your obliterators as Slaanesh....

Take all your Marines as Ultramarines and bring Roboute every time!

One would figure you'd be more sympathetic, but I guess I was wrong.

It's a vanilla marine problem. Can't really mix because reroll auras don't cross over. Chaos gets around it by it's stratagems being linked to marks and not legion traits (some are but most aren't) It's part of the reason CSM isn't as bad as SM.

It's a CSM problem. Can't really mix because Thousand Sons psykers can't cast spells on other marines. Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch, boon of mutation and temporal manipulation don't cross over. Marines can get around it by simply buffing other astartes with no problem.
Everyone can play this game y'know.