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Sounds like dkk needs its own costing. See? Fixed.

I'd still like to see what happens to IG usage if CP sharing is removed.

But I guess we're not allowed to do that because that wouldn't screw over people playing mono-IG.

Thats a fine thing to test, but im still using them at 4 ppm.

Is 5pts guardsmen really "screwing them over"? If so then what they've done to cultists must have violated at least a quarter of the Geneva Convention by now

 Continuity wrote:
Is 5pts guardsmen really "screwing them over"? If so then what they've done to cultists must have violated at least a quarter of the Geneva Convention by now

Only in the heads of some imperial players.

 vipoid wrote:
I'd still like to see what happens to IG usage if CP sharing is removed.

But I guess we're not allowed to do that because that wouldn't screw over people playing mono-IG.

Try fighting a competitive mono-codex IG army with any other mono-codex than Craftworld Eldar and tell me how it goes. Even Dark Eldar can't wistand them unless the IG player is bad, really bad. Is even worse if you end up with a deployment with short borders. A short range army like Eldar just can't do anything agaisnt the long range firepower of IG. And when they reach shooting distance they have to pell the IG hordes.

Is very sad to play marines , have 2 rhinos, 3 predators, and 25 marines, and thats basically your army, and then face a IG list with 10-12 heavy vehicles and 60-80 bodies on the ground. And every single model of those barring the basic infantry squad will shot much more and much better than all of your units.

Statistics at the competitive level put guard at a 50% win rate.

Everything is being mathhammered at the guardsmen level when codex needs to be looked at a whole

To bring it back on Cultists, at release they were a little too strong but the nerfs came with a price rise. Now they have been nerfed again they really should go back to 4ppm.

Guardsmen going to 5ppm should happen with 9th Edition so that everything gets repriced accordingly. I expect 9th to be the ultimately edition once all the 8e shenanigans get sorted out.

edited by ingtaer - Keep it polite please.

You can ignore because you say so? Where am I wrong? Tell me.

"Everything is being mathhammered at the guardsmen leve"

That's the part that Castellan lists and Baneblade lists abuse.

"Statistics at the competitive level put guard at a 50% win rate. "

Thats' because castellans disintegrate mono IG. But are still hiding behind IG. The same thing would work with baneblades if castellans with Raven strat didn't exist.

GW's gonna GW, so what I say ultimately doesn't matter at all, but it's really delusional to dismiss someone out of hand with no counteranalysis.

Most armies can have a good competitive game against guard.
Most armies can clear out 60 guardsmen comfortably unless the guard player just hides them.
Most armies can clear 80-90 guardsmen if they are even semi able to handle horde spec armies.
Most armies should be able to go first against guard if its a roll off.
Most armies wont lose too much to FRFSRF
The Knight armies people hate also keep guard armies in check, otherwise you would see much more tank heavy lists.
Most armies will gain full secondary points against guard in ITC

1) Conceded because of soup and #7. But this doesn't directly address guardsmen, because many of the soups beating IG have guardsmen themselves.

2) Timetable? The whole point of guard is that everything you shoot at 4 point models is basically doing nothing. They are wasting your time and shots on models they have no investment in. It's not debatable that most lists can kill 60 guardsmen. The issue is what they have left themselves after they do this. Every shot against a guardsmen puts the IG player further and further ahead in the match.

3) Not sure I agree with this. Just the number of to hit and to wound rolls is becoming prohibitive at this point.

4) Okay. And now they have the cover strat. Not sure how much that helps.

5) Completely disagree. I've seen lots of expensive T5 units just get worn out by FRFSRF. So no, many lists lose a lot of points to FRFSRF. Some don't, but a lot do.

6) Agreed, but only b/c of the Raven Castellan. If not for the Raven castellan, the shadowsword would be substituted.

7) Agreed, and this enables point one. The fact that ITC puts any downside at all on cheap models is why I like it. Even still, guardsmen are a dominant force in ITC. There is no cheaper way to generate CP, take up space, turn off deep strike and turn off assault lists.

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'd still like to see what happens to IG usage if CP sharing is removed.

But I guess we're not allowed to do that because that wouldn't screw over people playing mono-IG.

Try fighting a competitive mono-codex IG army with any other mono-codex than Craftworld Eldar and tell me how it goes. Even Dark Eldar can't wistand them unless the IG player is bad, really bad.

To be fair, in the specific case of Dark Eldar, IG have always been a terrible matchup in every edition, even when IG were otherwise largely terrible.

Even back in 4E, my ostensibly broken Iron Warriors never beat Dark Eldar, their massed AP2, CC invul saves, and "always wounds on 4+" was really powerful against MEQ's for a S3 T3 army. However, those strengths didn't mean much against my otherwise abysmally terribad mechanized stormtrooper company

Is very sad to play marines , have 2 rhinos, 3 predators, and 25 marines, and thats basically your army, and then face a IG list with 10-12 heavy vehicles and 60-80 bodies on the ground. And every single model of those barring the basic infantry squad will shot much more and much better than all of your units.

Is the issue with the Guard or the Space Marines? If the Guard disappeared from the game, are the Space Marines still bad against Eldar, Knights, Dark Eldar, Tau, Custodes, etc?

I mean, compare it to a Custodes list, at say 1500pts, they're getting maybe 18-25 models, so almost as many infantry as the SM list, minus the tanks, but two of those are transports, and the difference between each Custodian is dramatically more than the difference between a Space Marine and a Guardsman, they're probably a stronger force than the Space Marines as well. Guardsmen and Custodians aren't too badly balanced against each other largely speaking, the outlier is the Space Marine in the middle.

I play pure TSons and field zero cultists

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'd still like to see what happens to IG usage if CP sharing is removed.

But I guess we're not allowed to do that because that wouldn't screw over people playing mono-IG.

Try fighting a competitive mono-codex IG army with any other mono-codex than Craftworld Eldar and tell me how it goes. Even Dark Eldar can't wistand them unless the IG player is bad, really bad.

To be fair, in the specific case of Dark Eldar, IG have always been a terrible matchup in every edition, even when IG were otherwise largely terrible.

Even back in 4E, my ostensibly broken Iron Warriors never beat Dark Eldar, their massed AP2, CC invul saves, and "always wounds on 4+" was really powerful against MEQ's for a S3 T3 army. However, those strengths didn't mean much against my otherwise abysmally terribad mechanized stormtrooper company

Is very sad to play marines , have 2 rhinos, 3 predators, and 25 marines, and thats basically your army, and then face a IG list with 10-12 heavy vehicles and 60-80 bodies on the ground. And every single model of those barring the basic infantry squad will shot much more and much better than all of your units.

Is the issue with the Guard or the Space Marines? If the Guard disappeared from the game, are the Space Marines still bad against Eldar, Knights, Dark Eldar, Tau, Custodes, etc?

I mean, compare it to a Custodes list, at say 1500pts, they're getting maybe 18-25 models, so almost as many infantry as the SM list, minus the tanks, but two of those are transports, and the difference between each Custodian is dramatically more than the difference between a Space Marine and a Guardsman, they're probably a stronger force than the Space Marines as well. Guardsmen and Custodians aren't too badly balanced against each other largely speaking, the outlier is the Space Marine in the middle.

I play mono custodes and let me tell you unless you spam basic guardians you'll end up with 12-15 models and maybe 1-2 dreadnoughts/tanks. And Custodes agaisnt Imperial Guard are terrible because they are an elite army that kills elite armies.
I know that the matchup of imperial guard vs marines is more a fault of marines being that weak than of imperial guard being too powerfull, because I also see the difference when I play Tau and it looks like I have points to bring everything I want compared with my marines.

Martel732 wrote:
1) Conceded because of soup and #7. But this doesn't directly address guardsmen, because many of the soups beating IG have guardsmen themselves.

2) Timetable? The whole point of guard is that everything you shoot at 4 point models is basically doing nothing. They are wasting your time and shots on models they have no investment in. It's not debatable that most lists can kill 60 guardsmen. The issue is what they have left themselves after they do this. Every shot against a guardsmen puts the IG player further and further ahead in the match.

3) Not sure I agree with this. Just the number of to hit and to wound rolls is becoming prohibitive at this point.

4) Okay. And now they have the cover strat. Not sure how much that helps.

5) Completely disagree. I've seen lots of expensive T5 units just get worn out by FRFSRF. So no, many lists lose a lot of points to FRFSRF. Some don't, but a lot do.

6) Agreed, but only b/c of the Raven Castellan. If not for the Raven castellan, the shadowsword would be substituted.

7) Agreed, and this enables point one. The fact that ITC puts any downside at all on cheap models is why I like it. Even still, guardsmen are a dominant force in ITC. There is no cheaper way to generate CP, take up space, turn off deep strike and turn off assault lists.

1) I think you are really too focused on Soup guard vs Soup guard being only the way Soup guard wins. On what basis are you saying that only guard beat guard? The point is you dont necessarily need to address guardsmen when overall the stats say guard wins 50%. Its a healthy win rate. Guard lists with Castellans have a disproportionate win rate which is what SHOULD be addressed.

2) Timetable: Over the course of a 6 turn game. A good opponent and most lists will leave the guard player with a handful of guardsmen by the end.

3) Honestly If your list cannot clear out 80-90 guardsmen, then its going to really struggle against the orks/nids/plague bearer lists that are out there.

4) It helps a lot and guard have the CP to pay for it. No denying it.

5) FRFSRF can certainly help strip wounds off things, but I dont think its disproportionate to the cost of the guardsmen and commander that is firing. Just do the maths and you will see for yourself. 1 Commander (2 orders) and 3 Infantry squads (2 with FRFSRF) =150pts vs 3 Custodians will likely kill off 1 custodian (50ish points)

6) A shadowsword will not break the meta

7) Well yeah thats the role of the guardsmen in the Guard list. Killing is a bonus. The guardsmen is what gives away most of the points (kill more, butchers, reaper etc) but allows the guard player to still be in the running in ITC.

EDIT: I should clarify that as stats stand, the IG win rate is overall 58% and we know for the many of that includes a Castellan which is known to add up to 10% to guards wins.

36 shots
18 hits
6 wounds
1 failed save

They don’t even kill ONE Custodian Guard. It takes 300 points or Rapid Fire to take a wound off a biker.

Reading trough this thread I feel like I'm doing something massively wrong when I play IG.

Most of, if not all of my regular guardsmen are usually dead by the end of the game, even against Thousand Sons.
(Who I'm currently on a loosing-streak against, but that has more to do with my opponent using loaded dice...at least it feels that way.)

I also feel that non-guard players are massively overvaluing lasguns.
I mean sure, on occasion the humble lasgun can blast a Knight of the table, but most of the time, it's just a bunch of dice being rolled for seemingly very little effect.

10 Guardsmen without FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 9 shots, 4,5 hits, 1,5 wounds, 0,5 wounds after saves.
0-12" 19 shots, 9,5 hits, 3,16 wounds, 1,05 woundsafter saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen killed a single MEQ. on average.

10 guardsmen with FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 wound after saves.
0-12": 37 shots, 18,5 hits, 6,16 wounds, 2,05 wounds after saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen and 35 points of Officer kills 2 MEQ's on average.

Yes, the firepower of Infantry Squads is gamebreaking indeed.

And I agree with those above who state that if you bring a list that can't deal with 60-80 guardsmen, then you brought a very peculiar (read: bad/un-optimized) list.
If 60-80 T3 5+ guardsmen is giving you trouble, I would like to see you deal with a swarm of Orks or Nids.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Reading trough this thread I feel like I'm doing something massively wrong when I play IG.

Most of, if not all of my regular guardsmen are usually dead by the end of the game, even against Thousand Sons.
(Who I'm currently on a loosing-streak against, but that has more to do with my opponent using loaded dice...at least it feels that way.)

I also feel that non-guard players are massively overvaluing lasguns.
I mean sure, on occasion the humble lasgun can blast a Knight of the table, but most of the time, it's just a bunch of dice being rolled for seemingly very little effect.

10 Guardsmen without FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 9 shots, 4,5 hits, 1,5 wounds, 0,5 wounds after saves.
0-12" 19 shots, 9,5 hits, 3,16 wounds, 1,05 woundsafter saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen killed a single MEQ. on average.

10 guardsmen with FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 wound after saves.
0-12": 37 shots, 18,5 hits, 6,16 wounds, 2,05 wounds after saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen and 35 points of Officer kills 2 MEQ's on average.

Yes, the firepower of Infantry Squads is gamebreaking indeed.

And I agree with those above who state that if you bring a list that can't deal with 60-80 guardsmen, then you brought a very peculiar (read: bad/un-optimized) list.
If 60-80 T3 5+ guardsmen is giving you trouble, I would like to see you deal with a swarm of Orks or Nids.

The issue with guardsmen is not surviving all game, but rather forcing the enemy to waste expensive guns and models to clear out those guardsmen over two or three so they can reach the enemy tanks/knights shelling your army unhindered.
Guardsmen are cheap and can take a lot more damage before dying than most comparable units while still providing a non-trivial amount of shooting (killing two MEQ for 75 points is GOOD for a troops unit), while you have access to powerful weapons with high range which also very hard to kill in form of leman russes, baneblades and knights. Unlike other armies, IG does not need to maneuver or move in range in order to maximize their shooting, so you are unlikely to expose something you do not want to expose. For your opponent, it means if you can't get through the guardsmen before the tanks and knights have obliterated all key targets, the game is lost.
That's kind of how guard should operate, it's just that guardsmen are bit too efficient at holding the line.

Yeah I don't have a problem with the guardsmen's firepower. The problem I have is with the 3 manticores, 3 Tank Commanders, 3 catachan basilisks...

 Continuity wrote:
Is 5pts guardsmen really "screwing them over"? If so then what they've done to cultists must have violated at least a quarter of the Geneva Convention by now

Would it screw over Infantry Squads? Probably not. I mean, maybe a bit but it's not like guard have many other options when it comes to troops.

However, what people seem to forget is that IG has infantry beyond Infantry Squads. And if you bump up Infantry Squads, then the other infantry will all have to go up in price as well.

And so by increasing the cost of Infantry Squads (which are taken too much), you're also inadvertently increasing the cost of units that are already barely ever taken (Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, Command Squads etc.).

 Galas wrote:
Yeah I don't have a problem with the guardsmen's firepower. The problem I have is with the 3 manticores, 3 Tank Commanders, 3 catachan basilisks...

So shouldn't the focus be on nerfing those things instead?

 vipoid wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
Is 5pts guardsmen really "screwing them over"? If so then what they've done to cultists must have violated at least a quarter of the Geneva Convention by now

Would it screw over Infantry Squads? Probably not. I mean, maybe a bit but it's not like guard have many other options when it comes to troops.

However, what people seem to forget is that IG has infantry beyond Infantry Squads. And if you bump up Infantry Squads, then the other infantry will all have to go up in price as well.

And so by increasing the cost of Infantry Squads (which are taken too much), you're also inadvertently increasing the cost of units that are already barely ever taken (Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, Command Squads etc.).

 Galas wrote:
Yeah I don't have a problem with the guardsmen's firepower. The problem I have is with the 3 manticores, 3 Tank Commanders, 3 catachan basilisks...

So shouldn't the focus be on nerfing those things instead?

Stop making sense....

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey, this might be already mentioned here, but does the new apostle prayers affect cultists? If I remember correctly, there was one prayer that buffs wounding +1, similar to the veterans stratagem..

Yes they do. Apostles are like the shepherd for cultists.

Cultists lose their legion trait, and apostle prayers affect friendly legion units. How do they affect them? Or is it they have the trait and simply receive no benefit?
Edit: I really don't know and haven't seen the datasheet. Please let me know if I can stop painting 40 EC cultists.

 Jidmah wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Reading trough this thread I feel like I'm doing something massively wrong when I play IG.

Most of, if not all of my regular guardsmen are usually dead by the end of the game, even against Thousand Sons.
(Who I'm currently on a loosing-streak against, but that has more to do with my opponent using loaded dice...at least it feels that way.)

I also feel that non-guard players are massively overvaluing lasguns.
I mean sure, on occasion the humble lasgun can blast a Knight of the table, but most of the time, it's just a bunch of dice being rolled for seemingly very little effect.

10 Guardsmen without FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 9 shots, 4,5 hits, 1,5 wounds, 0,5 wounds after saves.
0-12" 19 shots, 9,5 hits, 3,16 wounds, 1,05 woundsafter saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen killed a single MEQ. on average.

10 guardsmen with FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 wound after saves.
0-12": 37 shots, 18,5 hits, 6,16 wounds, 2,05 wounds after saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen and 35 points of Officer kills 2 MEQ's on average.

Yes, the firepower of Infantry Squads is gamebreaking indeed.

And I agree with those above who state that if you bring a list that can't deal with 60-80 guardsmen, then you brought a very peculiar (read: bad/un-optimized) list.
If 60-80 T3 5+ guardsmen is giving you trouble, I would like to see you deal with a swarm of Orks or Nids.

The issue with guardsmen is not surviving all game, but rather forcing the enemy to waste expensive guns and models to clear out those guardsmen over two or three so they can reach the enemy tanks/knights shelling your army unhindered.
Guardsmen are cheap and can take a lot more damage before dying than most comparable units while still providing a non-trivial amount of shooting (killing two MEQ for 75 points is GOOD for a troops unit), while you have access to powerful weapons with high range which also very hard to kill in form of leman russes, baneblades and knights. Unlike other armies, IG does not need to maneuver or move in range in order to maximize their shooting, so you are unlikely to expose something you do not want to expose. For your opponent, it means if you can't get through the guardsmen before the tanks and knights have obliterated all key targets, the game is lost.
That's kind of how guard should operate, it's just that guardsmen are bit too efficient at holding the line.

Okay, then try and fight Orks. If you can't deal with 60+ guarden, how are you going to deal with 90+ Orks, where they kill almost anything they touch in CC thanks to Skarboys, Ghaz and Exploding 6s?

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey, this might be already mentioned here, but does the new apostle prayers affect cultists? If I remember correctly, there was one prayer that buffs wounding +1, similar to the veterans stratagem..

Yes they do. Apostles are like the shepherd for cultists.

Cultists lose their legion trait, and apostle prayers affect friendly legion units. How do they affect them? Or is it they have the trait and simply receive no benefit?
Edit: I really don't know and haven't seen the datasheet. Please let me know if I can stop painting 40 EC cultists.

Cultists are still <LEGION>, they just don't get the legion trait which is a different specific thing. It basically just means that Alpha Legion cultists aren't -1 to hit, stuff like that.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah I don't have a problem with the guardsmen's firepower. The problem I have is with the 3 manticores, 3 Tank Commanders, 3 catachan basilisks...

So shouldn't the focus be on nerfing those things instead?

Well, some of them yes, but that was my point. The problem is the combination of having the best chaff in the game with the best long range firepower of the game. And the best LOS ignoring forepower of the game.

I think a lot of people in here are missing the point.

Lasguns are just icing on the cake. Guardsmen would be worth 4 points with no gun at all.

They are the ultimate time buying/stalling unit. It's not about "dealing with" 90 guardsmen. It's about surviving all the crap behind them you can't physically get to.

Orks are 7 ppm, and their defenses are not significantly better. So you are removing an Ork army almost twice a fast as a guard army.

Nid hordes are more comparable, as hive guard are terrifying, but Nids don't really have a baneblade equivalent. And termigants are FAR less capable than guardsmen.

And no, we shouldn't focus on the units that the guardsmen are protecting necessarily. Guard tanks might be much more balanced if they could actually be accessed in melee. But they are not, since there is always a huge wall that can stall for a long, long time. Even <fly> units can't get around them really anymore. Clever placement just shuts it down.

If there was a way to shoot before movement, this wouldn't be so bad. But guardsmen are quite literally killing the enemy army in the movement phase without firing a shot. Or rather, setting them up to be killed by the undercosted artillery and command russes.

Orks are actually FAR easier to deal with than guard, since melee is such a gak show in 8th. They are coming to me, can't get all the orks fighting anymore, etc. Now the 45 lootas behind grot shields is horrific, but that's a VERY IG-esque set up. Murderous ranged units that can't be touched because of cheap chaff. See a theme?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah I don't have a problem with the guardsmen's firepower. The problem I have is with the 3 manticores, 3 Tank Commanders, 3 catachan basilisks...

So shouldn't the focus be on nerfing those things instead?

Well, some of them yes, but that was my point. The problem is the combination of having the best chaff in the game with the best long range firepower of the game. And the best LOS ignoring forepower of the game.

He gets it.

Pleasestop wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Reading trough this thread I feel like I'm doing something massively wrong when I play IG.

Most of, if not all of my regular guardsmen are usually dead by the end of the game, even against Thousand Sons.
(Who I'm currently on a loosing-streak against, but that has more to do with my opponent using loaded dice...at least it feels that way.)

I also feel that non-guard players are massively overvaluing lasguns.
I mean sure, on occasion the humble lasgun can blast a Knight of the table, but most of the time, it's just a bunch of dice being rolled for seemingly very little effect.

10 Guardsmen without FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 9 shots, 4,5 hits, 1,5 wounds, 0,5 wounds after saves.
0-12" 19 shots, 9,5 hits, 3,16 wounds, 1,05 woundsafter saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen killed a single MEQ. on average.

10 guardsmen with FRFSRF against a MEQ:
12-24": 18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 wound after saves.
0-12": 37 shots, 18,5 hits, 6,16 wounds, 2,05 wounds after saves.
At optimal range, 40 points of guardsmen and 35 points of Officer kills 2 MEQ's on average.

Yes, the firepower of Infantry Squads is gamebreaking indeed.

And I agree with those above who state that if you bring a list that can't deal with 60-80 guardsmen, then you brought a very peculiar (read: bad/un-optimized) list.
If 60-80 T3 5+ guardsmen is giving you trouble, I would like to see you deal with a swarm of Orks or Nids.

The issue with guardsmen is not surviving all game, but rather forcing the enemy to waste expensive guns and models to clear out those guardsmen over two or three so they can reach the enemy tanks/knights shelling your army unhindered.
Guardsmen are cheap and can take a lot more damage before dying than most comparable units while still providing a non-trivial amount of shooting (killing two MEQ for 75 points is GOOD for a troops unit), while you have access to powerful weapons with high range which also very hard to kill in form of leman russes, baneblades and knights. Unlike other armies, IG does not need to maneuver or move in range in order to maximize their shooting, so you are unlikely to expose something you do not want to expose. For your opponent, it means if you can't get through the guardsmen before the tanks and knights have obliterated all key targets, the game is lost.
That's kind of how guard should operate, it's just that guardsmen are bit too efficient at holding the line.

Okay, then try and fight Orks. If you can't deal with 60+ guarden, how are you going to deal with 90+ Orks, where they kill almost anything they touch in CC thanks to Skarboys, Ghaz and Exploding 6s?

Ironically 30 ork boys are 210 points and only rock a 6+, 5+ in cover
That is much easier to wade through than 30 Guardsmen for 120 that rick a 5+, 4+ in cover.
To remove the same points you would have to wade through 50+ Guardsmen

Yeah I have 9 problems with orks, Assault Cannons munch them with ease and a good return in points.

And they are running towards me, not protecting 10 tanks.

I don't think there's anything in the game that shoots guardsmen with even a decent return.

So, anyway, back to cultists....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, anyway, back to cultists....

I do have to agree here, I was happy enough with discussing other stuff as a point of comparison but the last few pages seem to be far more discussion of Guard and their variations. We really don't need yet another guard thread masquerading as a cultists one.