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tneva82 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The buildings of any major city are bigger than the stated sizes for most Titans. Simply walking through them is not a great option, especially since lots of urban building have sub-levels. Any Titan trying to walk through a building could just wind up falling into a hole and then buried in rubble.

That's why they don't walk over them. They level them.

Person above said it well. Marines are used to conquer world. Titans to destroy them. When you utilize them you dont' care about collateral casualties. In HH Dorn sent basically all the titans to Beta Garmon to fight Horus titans THERE rather than earth precisely because had they fought on earth there would not be much LEFT of earth to the winner.

We are destroyer of worlds is accurate statement for titans. They don't conquer worlds. They flatten them.

The argument against that is that you can just bombard a planet from orbit if you don't care about collateral damage.

Titans need a strategic niche that is not simply leveling everything. For example, maybe they are siege-breakers for circumstances where a target can't be bombarded. Perhaps they can pass through city defense fields, and because they're not aircraft, can duck the large scale anti-air fire that would normally be used against planetary landing craft. Hoth scenario type stuff.

Well they are taller than most infantry and tanks and have a horrendously complicated means of locomotion... so they are like helicopter gunships. That can only stay at one level. And move quite slowly. What were we talking about again?

 Flinty wrote:
Well they are taller than most infantry and tanks and have a horrendously complicated means of locomotion... so they are like helicopter gunships. That can only stay at one level. And move quite slowly. What were we talking about again?

You must know some really tall dudes......

Hey, I'm just not ruling anything out, ok?

The one time I could see a platform like a Titan maybe somewhat making sense is that of a mobile anti-orbital defense gun. Build a weapons platform capable of mounting weapons big enough to at least be a threat to smaller ships or landing craft, then make it mobile so that they can't just throw rocks at it from across the solar system.

The only thing I can think of where a Titan is useful is a planet where you need to destroy a lot of stuff but you don't have orbital superiority. But then with the resources needed to make a Titan you could probably make enough ships to just take control of orbit.

 dementedwombatusa wrote:
The one time I could see a platform like a Titan maybe somewhat making sense is that of a mobile anti-orbital defense gun. Build a weapons platform capable of mounting weapons big enough to at least be a threat to smaller ships or landing craft, then make it mobile so that they can't just throw rocks at it from across the solar system.

But that design idea leads to putting tracks on it and building a proper tank. Walking makes no sense except as "space Jesus said so".

Depends on the terrain. A walker will be able to navigate more landscapes, especially if we start imagining suspensors to help stabilize and alleviaye some ground pressure issues. Since you dont know where/what worlds the Titans need to be deployed on, walking might be more desireable.

They have giant tanks anyways, too. Like the Capitol Imperialis.

 Insectum7 wrote:
A walker will be able to navigate more landscapes

Not likely. Ground pressure is going to be immense relative to a tank, and a titan has horrifying stability issues that a tank doesn't worry about. The tank is actually going to be the better platform in rough terrain.

especially if we start imagining suspensors to help stabilize and alleviaye some ground pressure issues.

Then you build a hover tank and don't bother with legs/tracks/whatever at all.

Two legs may have stability problems, but legs actually have advantages in some terrain.

IRL DARPA is experimenting with devices to carry equipment in rough terrain. These devices use legs. Wheels able to cross logs etc would be too big.

Legs also don't dig themselves deeper in soft terrain (mud and sand etc)

Titan pilots like to hook up a sound player to the titans PA system and play fart effects thru them at full volume. It's really bad for the enemy morale and gives your allies some good laughs.

pm713 wrote:
The only thing I can think of where a Titan is useful is a planet where you need to destroy a lot of stuff but you don't have orbital superiority. But then with the resources needed to make a Titan you could probably make enough ships to just take control of orbit.

And if you don't have orbital superiority they just kill your giant titan from orbit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dementedwombatusa wrote:
The one time I could see a platform like a Titan maybe somewhat making sense is that of a mobile anti-orbital defense gun. Build a weapons platform capable of mounting weapons big enough to at least be a threat to smaller ships or landing craft, then make it mobile so that they can't just throw rocks at it from across the solar system.

But that design idea leads to putting tracks on it and building a proper tank. Walking makes no sense except as "space Jesus said so".

I'm not saying you're wrong. I pretty much completely agree. I'm just trying to give the best explanation I can think of why something like a Titan would be a useful weapon.

Titans are "shock and awe" weapons. Let's face it, we can sit ere and say they're stupid and foolish and a bad design and make no sense yadda yadda yadda all we want and be technically right.

But if a few ever landed on earth people would be stunned, shocked, awed, etc.

They are symbols, they are objects of worship, focal points for moral, etc. The sight of them marching towards your city, visible from many miles away, hearing the thunder of their footsteps, feeling the ground shake as they advanced, yeah, it's gonna royally xxxx with your morale big time if you're the enemy. It's gonna raise your morale if you're friendly forces.

They're symbols of might and capability, the very fact peolle have the tech and industry to build one says a xxxxton about their power.

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Because Titans are the masters of their niche.

Yes they have a lot of drawbacks, but you don't want to be stuck in an open field facing an enemy titan without one yourself.

Unless you are Tau. Then you call in a squadron of AX -0-1 Tiger Sharks and destroy the priceless Titan with a plane made of spare parts from other platforms.

Not anymore you don't. Now you call in your Titans because flyer squadrons aren't big centrepieces.

Ugh. I'll never forgive GW for what they did to the fluff of the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
.

They're symbols of might and capability, the very fact peolle have the tech and industry to build one says a xxxxton about their power.

Right until a sinkhole opens up under one of its feet and it is stuck on its side and has to be scuttled. Then it becomes a testament to the idiocy of the engineers.

Yeeeeaah, I kinda have the feeling the admech has developed ground penetrating sensors to detect sinkholes and such.

Just slap a few anti-grav generators on them and make the whole ground pressure irrelevant.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Titan pilots like to hook up a sound player to the titans PA system and play fart effects thru them at full volume. It's really bad for the enemy morale and gives your allies some good laughs.

You I like.

 cole1114 wrote:
There's also scenarios where even if the Imperium wants to preserve a city, they know they're gonna have to mess it up to protect it. Stuff like Helsreach where they had imperators wandering the streets fighting Gargants, or in Betrayer where they had reavers fighting warhounds without any visibility in a city covered in smoke and ash.

Remember, this is the same universe where ground supremacy > air supremacy because of the usefulness of void shields and anti-air. It's why Horus had to take Beta-Garmon in order to attack Terra, they couldn't just go past it since they needed to warp in in-system which would leave them vulnerable to attacks launched from the planet. Solution? Titans! Thousands of them!

Well, imperium sent their titans in so that they would mutually annihilate them self. Khan asks Angel wouldn't all those titans be better off defending Terra, and Angel basically tells him look at destruction they wreak around them, they better annihilate them self mutually as much as possible here away from throne world...

Titans are a way of sayjng 'My dick is bigger than yours. "

Still going on about these things being far bigger than they actually are, and not taking in to account any development in materials over thousands of years. I know that little development happened in the later part of the 40k universe, but there are 10's of thousands of years of development before it all collapsed. We have far larger machines today that the titans and they are equally as questionable. Admittedly we have moved away from huge batttleships, but take an aircraft carrier. 300+ metres long est. 100,000 tons. Nasa crawler 40-ish metres square and weighing in at nearly 3000 tons. We build huge stuff now, some of it is big for a reason, some is just for looks, cruise ships 300= metres long with a capacity of 6000 people. In 300BC we were building siege towers like the Helepolis, the largest siege tower ever made. With iron plating on three sides and three catapults, 65 feet wide, 130 feet tall, and weighing 160 tons.

Titans are not that ridiculous, and as has been said, the sight of it would be just awe. The simple factor of raising your line of sight above everything on the ground and your guns automatically having height advantage alone are not to be scoffed at either.

Movement would be an issue, certainly nothing like the silly running around in Pacific Rim, but walking would be plausible.

I think there is a good case for having them, but I am playing devils advocate, because I really don't think they are that viable. Cost is not an issue, size is not an issue, it just comes down to manoeuvrability. If you are relatively immobile your are done for in any combat situation. Walking about in an urban situation is plausible, and a defensive line surrounding a city state is viable, and would do wonders for moral. And in the same way, seeing a line of them advancing toward a city, something like in ancient times, war elephants advancing, would be scary as hell. But they would have to be able to soak up an awful lot of punishment.

P.S. on the weight relationship thing, I know years ago I had a chart for D&D stuff, but a thought for you. A 5ft person weighs approx 100lbs, a 6ft person 180lbs, and 6ft 8" 220lbs, and of course you have someone like the Mountain 400lbs, height and weight are not simple calculations, it is an exponential curve.

P.P.S. I worked out long ago that according to the BMI charts I am not over weight, I am under height, I should be 7'6".

Eldenfirefly wrote:
What exactly are Titans used for?

I read in Vigilus Ablaze that titans were ill suited to fight in the dense city hab blocksthere. But you can't always choose to have an enemy that is so obliging it would fight you on the nice flat ground of your own choosing. It seems to me that Titans seem to function as a very limited long range bombardment role and that's about it. Many stories I have read about titans in action have been on nice flat desert or barren land.

They aren't used in space boarding actions. They can't be used in cities.They are not flyers. Seriously, it just seems to me that their role is so limited I wonder why they even exist in the first place. Why spend so much resources building such massive titans who end up being only able to operate in rather limited combat theaters of wars.

They aren't suited to fight in cities but they do it all the time. They absolutely can be used in cities but just like a tank it isn't ideal for them.

 Camkierhi wrote:
Still going on about these things being far bigger than they actually are, and not taking in to account any development in materials over thousands of years. I know that little development happened in the later part of the 40k universe, but there are 10's of thousands of years of development before it all collapsed. We have far larger machines today that the titans and they are equally as questionable. Admittedly we have moved away from huge batttleships, but take an aircraft carrier. 300+ metres long est. 100,000 tons. Nasa crawler 40-ish metres square and weighing in at nearly 3000 tons. We build huge stuff now, some of it is big for a reason, some is just for looks, cruise ships 300= metres long with a capacity of 6000 people. In 300BC we were building siege towers like the Helepolis, the largest siege tower ever made. With iron plating on three sides and three catapults, 65 feet wide, 130 feet tall, and weighing 160 tons.

Titans are not that ridiculous, and as has been said, the sight of it would be just awe. The simple factor of raising your line of sight above everything on the ground and your guns automatically having height advantage alone are not to be scoffed at either.

Movement would be an issue, certainly nothing like the silly running around in Pacific Rim, but walking would be plausible.

I think there is a good case for having them, but I am playing devils advocate, because I really don't think they are that viable. Cost is not an issue, size is not an issue, it just comes down to manoeuvrability. If you are relatively immobile your are done for in any combat situation. Walking about in an urban situation is plausible, and a defensive line surrounding a city state is viable, and would do wonders for moral. And in the same way, seeing a line of them advancing toward a city, something like in ancient times, war elephants advancing, would be scary as hell. But they would have to be able to soak up an awful lot of punishment.

P.S. on the weight relationship thing, I know years ago I had a chart for D&D stuff, but a thought for you. A 5ft person weighs approx 100lbs, a 6ft person 180lbs, and 6ft 8" 220lbs, and of course you have someone like the Mountain 400lbs, height and weight are not simple calculations, it is an exponential curve.

P.P.S. I worked out long ago that according to the BMI charts I am not over weight, I am under height, I should be 7'6".

The mountain is huge, I'm 6'8" & 260ish lbs(granted I look the same @290 as I do 240)and when I see another person my height or taller they're either super skinny or gigantic.

Suspensors and gyrostabilized bipedal motion is a pretty decent way to get around, after all that's kinda what human locomotion uses.

 Camkierhi wrote:
not taking in to account any development in materials over thousands of years

We don't need to account for materials because the flaws with titans are issues of geometry. A titan will always have more surface area than a tank with comparable internal volume, which means that an equal mass of armor will be much thinner and give much less protection to the titan. A titan will always have a smaller surface area in contact with the ground and will always have the additional force of the foot impacting the ground with every step, so it will always be more vulnerable to soft ground. A titan will always have its center of gravity significantly higher up and require a much smaller rotation angle to put that center of gravity outside of its footprint and fall over. Any materials improvements that can help a titan will also help a conventional tank, and the tank will always win at everything except being a walking icon to space Jesus.

and as has been said, the sight of it would be just awe

Until a Tigershark pilot sees that nice easy target and puts a fatal railgun salvo through it. Then your icon to space Jesus becomes a burning wreck and the only awe is at the enemies that smashed it.

The simple factor of raising your line of sight above everything on the ground and your guns automatically having height advantage alone are not to be scoffed at either.

Err, no. Success in combat is about keeping a low profile and staying out of sight. A tall target that stands out from every possible direction is an easy target, and any advantage in gun elevation is negated by the fact that the enemy guns now have line of sight for return fire.

I thought success in combat was killing the other guy while not dying? So being in something with starship level shielding that annihilates entire tank squadrons is pretty helpful for that.

I know Titans aren't practical but they aren't THAT bad.

pm713 wrote:
I thought success in combat was killing the other guy while not dying? So being in something with starship level shielding that annihilates entire tank squadrons is pretty helpful for that.

I know Titans aren't practical but they aren't THAT bad.

"Aren't that bad", If you have a titan and your enemy doesn't then you are pretty much winning, that's what I've learnt from the lore and I've read a hell of a lot of the lore. Titans can win wars by simply having them I don't know what the hell the OP is talking about.

pm713 wrote:
I thought success in combat was killing the other guy while not dying? So being in something with starship level shielding that annihilates entire tank squadrons is pretty helpful for that.

I know Titans aren't practical but they aren't THAT bad.

Until the other side has a tank with starship level shielding that annihilates entire titan squadrons, because the tank is not an idiotic unstable walker with much worse armor and firepower than a tank of equal mass.

I get the feeling your not keen on Titan's Peregrine!

Tbh I agree 100%.

Still like the idea though. Giant killy robots are cool. Personally I think the Ork gargants are more viable. Huge tracked icons to your chosen deity with a few silly big guns strapped to it works for me. Walking giant machines just not right.

But if we want everything to be practical and fit our universe, maybe sci-fi is not the best setting for your toy soldiers.

 Peregrine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I thought success in combat was killing the other guy while not dying? So being in something with starship level shielding that annihilates entire tank squadrons is pretty helpful for that.

I know Titans aren't practical but they aren't THAT bad.

Until the other side has a tank with starship level shielding that annihilates entire titan squadrons, because the tank is not an idiotic unstable walker with much worse armor and firepower than a tank of equal mass.

A titans weapons have great range and the titan, standing taller, let's them fire out to further range than a low platform like a tank. Titans can step over obstacles that could stop a huge tracked vehicle. Also titans have pilots controlling them via mind impulse interface that let's them operate it like their own bodies making them relatively agile for such huge constructs. A human pilot might not be able to interface with a tracked vehicle and operate it like they operate their bodies.

 Peregrine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I thought success in combat was killing the other guy while not dying? So being in something with starship level shielding that annihilates entire tank squadrons is pretty helpful for that.

I know Titans aren't practical but they aren't THAT bad.

Until the other side has a tank with starship level shielding that annihilates entire titan squadrons, because the tank is not an idiotic unstable walker with much worse armor and firepower than a tank of equal mass.

You just failed to sum up a titan, tanks are nothing to a titan in the lore, even shadowswords etc. They aren't even in the same ball park. Show me an instance, just one in the lore where a tank destroys a city, I can give you many of a titan. I mean where is everyone getting their info thinking titans are so under-powered and weak... Even in the game they are insanely cheesy and the lore they are even more cheesy.