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That's a great spin, though personally I go with the idea that the skull represents the face of the corpse emperor watching over humanity!

I suppose the two ideas aren't mutually exclusive though...

I would imagine titans are rather good when you both do not agree upon a sett amount of points to buy units for. You know. Like a real battle wiymthin the fictional setting.

Also, if you can do the same work with fewer humans, but more of other reasorces, it is more humane.

In the immortal response of Mekboy Ushbek to his Warboss Dragnatz question of "Oi Mekboy, Wot is dat zoggin' thing?" upon seeing their first Titan in action "Dunno boss, but it's ded killy."

That's exactly what Titans are used for. Being ded killy. Ask Zorgob (the Squished) what a Titan is used for. Ushbek knew what he was zoggin' talking about. So did General Veers.

(In my 1990 Rogue Trader era Waaargh Orks book Ushbek says "it's ded great" - either way Ushbek gets it.)

I predict we're gonna have walkers in our military arsenal, within these next 100 years. They're not going to be the lumbering giants like the titans of 40k. They're gonna be fast moving, able to traverse the same types of terrain that humans can. Short of climbing a rock face. They're gonna be what Warhounds are, absolutely breathtaking speed and devastating firepower, short of a MBT. I think what they're gonna look like are gun platforms mounted on a pair of oversized ostrich legs. Maybe even with a full suite of optics, making sure that the enemy can run, but not hide. Maybe even a sonar system, to detect land mines and IEDs. They can just as easily operate in close support of infantry as well as armored units without sacrificing speed and mobility either way. In fact, they'll extend the range at which infantry and any mechanized unit can project force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSjKoEva5bg

Also, as others have mentioned, I imagine titans do remarkably well in sieges. In fact that might be what they were originally designed for. They would make great siege towers.

Insectum7 wrote:(Also definitely a far more nuanced take than "space Jesus said so").

Well, "Space Jesus said so" is typical Peregrine being Peregrine, but I don't think he's wrong. The point remains that it's difficult for us 21st-century secular types to really grok how people living in a millennia-old theocracy would think. And some of that religious or quasi-religious thinking might have been in play even before Mars and the wider Imperium went full-on theocracy.

Also, one of the assumptions/conceits of the 40K setting is that 'modern' secular materialism is an abberation. Humans in 40K aren't just indoctrinated into religious fanaticism. It is their natural state, so much so that even the Emperor couldn't put an end to it and was ultimately forced to merely co-opt it.

At the same time it's sometimes hard to take the HH novels as canon

Oh, I completely agree. I wish most of the HH stuff wasn't canon and had never been written. But that ship has not merely sailed, it has landed on bright new shores and brought plague and death and suffering to a formerly pristine New World. We just have to make the best of it now.

Formosa wrote:the imperiums obsession with skulls

Jes Goodwin has stated that the skulls that are merely decorative are representations of the Emperor's face, because the modern Imperium is a galaxy-spanning death cult.

But those skulls that are seemingly integrated into computer systems (e.g. on the interiors of some of the more recent terrain kits) are there because they house the re-purposed human brains that the Imperium uses in preference to the silicon-chip-based computing that is associated with Abominable Intelligence.

Dandelion wrote:
My 2 cents:
There's really no reason to give Titans only 2 legs since those are a major weakness. Aside from being a massive failure point with no redundancies, walking with only two legs presents a balance issue since you only have one point of contact with the ground at any one time. If you really need to step over something, at least provide 4 legs.

Spoiler:

Or just do this:

Spoiler:

I mean, there's nothing stopping us from replacing the legs of titans with tracks to keep the height advantage if we need it. Plus, I'd hate to be the guy that lost a titan in mud cuz its feet got stuck.

At the end of the day though, people aren't purely pragmatic. If someone wants to make a bipedal titan and can do it, you can bet it'll get made. So while a tank is more efficient, a titan is more of a symbol, and that's still important in war (esp in 40k). So while the Titan sacrifices overall utility, it becomes a focal point for imperial propaganda. I did enjoy the fact that the Tau just used space ships to shoot the titans cuz they ain't got time fo dat. It really contrasted the pragmatism of the Tau versus the spectacle of the Imperium.

There are four legged titans (like the one in the beast arises series, can't remember which book but it's after they find Vulkan). They're very rare though, probably because they're already warlord sized and need a lot more resources.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:(Also definitely a far more nuanced take than "space Jesus said so").

Well, "Space Jesus said so" is typical Peregrine being Peregrine, but I don't think he's wrong. The point remains that it's difficult for us 21st-century secular types to really grok how people living in a millennia-old theocracy would think. And some of that religious or quasi-religious thinking might have been in play even before Mars and the wider Imperium went full-on theocracy.

Also, one of the assumptions/conceits of the 40K setting is that 'modern' secular materialism is an abberation. Humans in 40K aren't just indoctrinated into religious fanaticism. It is their natural state, so much so that even the Emperor couldn't put an end to it and was ultimately forced to merely co-opt it.

Oh I agree with all that, but again in this case it appears that Titans were around long before any of the heavy theocracy. So . . . did Titans exist solely because the Emperor-told/Dragon-influenced the Mechanicum possibly 15,000 years before the birth of the Imperium? That remains a really hard claim to prove out, imo.

I also find it distracting from the more interesting part of the conversation, which is: Is there an in-universe strategic space for Titans to function/work?

 Duskweaver wrote:

At the same time it's sometimes hard to take the HH novels as canon

Oh, I completely agree. I wish most of the HH stuff wasn't canon and had never been written. But that ship has not merely sailed, it has landed on bright new shores and brought plague and death and suffering to a formerly pristine New World. We just have to make the best of it now.

Aye. It is what it is. Thankfully they haven't gone and said that a bunch of the older lore is necessarily untrue either, so we get to pick and choose interpretation to at least some extent. Which is nice, it leaves the universe sprawling and a bit richer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I predict we're gonna have walkers in our military arsenal, within these next 100 years.

Honestly, probably waaay sooner then that. Those things are advancing fast.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Honestly, probably waaay sooner then that. Those things are advancing fast.

No, within 100. They still have to solve the battery problem. No battery = no exosuits, no walkers

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Honestly, probably waaay sooner then that. Those things are advancing fast.

No, within 100. They still have to solve the battery problem. No battery = no exosuits, no walkers

I'm pretty sure I've seen gas operated walkers, batteries are advancing pretty quickly iirc, and there could be uses for disposeable/reuseable fast-deploy units that aren't expected to last too long anyways.

 Insectum7 wrote:
in this case it appears that Titans were around long before any of the heavy theocracy.

It's worth remembering that this is a pretty recent retcon. Originally, all Titans were from the Age of Strife or later and explicitly described as products of the religion of the Cult Mechanicum (I just checked this in my copies of Codex Titanicus from Epic: Titan Legions and Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition 40K). AFAIK, it's only in the HH novels that any Titans have been described as pre-Cult. So we're left patching together an explanation using the more venerable (3rd edition 40K IIRC) retcon that places the Dragon of Mars as the inspiration for (most? all?) Martian technology and culture. (The idea that the Emperor put the Dragon there is more recent; originally, the Dragon just went to sleep on Mars at the end of the War in Heaven, but its influence on the Mechanicum was already apparent in the earlier fluff.)

So . . . did Titans exist solely because the Emperor-told/Dragon-influenced the Mechanicum possibly 15,000 years before the birth of the Imperium? That remains a really hard claim to prove out, imo.

We can't prove anything. It's all speculation based on a conflicting mess of retcons upon retcons. But that mess is what GW/BL have turned their IP into, unfortunately.

I also find it distracting from the more interesting part of the conversation, which is: Is there an in-universe strategic space for Titans to function/work?

Wading through lakes / shallow seas / dust oceans springs to mind. Harder (though not impossible) to do that with a similar-sized tracked vehicle. And Mars had lakes and seas during the Age of Technology, before it lost its terraforming in the Age of Strife, if we're acknowledging the existence of Titans back then.

It's still a case of reaching for post hoc justifications for a problem created by GW's misjudged retcon, though, and therefore not a very satisfying explanation IMO.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Jes Goodwin has stated that the skulls that are merely decorative are representations of the Emperor's face, because the modern Imperium is a galaxy-spanning death cult.
.

and really when you step back and think of it isn't THAT odd. I mean the symbol of worship in christinaity is a Crucifix, which was basicly a Roman tortue/execution device. I'm sure if someone hypotheticly was seeing that without any of the cultura context, they'd think it a damn strange thing too

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
in this case it appears that Titans were around long before any of the heavy theocracy.

It's worth remembering that this is a pretty recent retcon. Originally, all Titans were from the Age of Strife or later and explicitly described as products of the religion of the Cult Mechanicum (I just checked this in my copies of Codex Titanicus from Epic: Titan Legions and Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition 40K). AFAIK, it's only in the HH novels that any Titans have been described as pre-Cult.

My source is actually the Codex Titannicus or Rulebook from the 90's Epic release. Check the section describing the Warlord Titan. I'd give the page number but I'm away from the books.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
in this case it appears that Titans were around long before any of the heavy theocracy.

It's worth remembering that this is a pretty recent retcon. Originally, all Titans were from the Age of Strife or later and explicitly described as products of the religion of the Cult Mechanicum (I just checked this in my copies of Codex Titanicus from Epic: Titan Legions and Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition 40K). AFAIK, it's only in the HH novels that any Titans have been described as pre-Cult.

My source is actually the Codex Titannicus or Rulebook from the 90's Epic release. Check the section describing the Warlord Titan. I'd give the page number but I'm away from the books.

Its funny as the 40k lore has been extremely consistent over the years with a couple of bigger retcons, it generally comes down to people not knowing the difference between filling out the fluff in more detail and an actual retcon, necrons was a retcon, the Horus heresy novel series is a filling in of detail.

^some, yes. Although in my view some of the "filling in of detail" hurts the setting more than helps it. I'd rather that much of the heresey have stayed more mysterious.

I'm curious as of which phase of the Necron lore you are referring to. The 3rd edition book or the 5th

 Insectum7 wrote:
^some, yes. Although in my view some of the "filling in of detail" hurts the setting more than helps it. I'd rather that much of the heresey have stayed more mysterious.

I'm curious as of which phase of the Necron lore you are referring to. The 3rd edition book or the 5th

Mainly the 5th one, the 3rd one was more a step to the side, the 5th one was a total reboot, which I dont really mind, at least its better than dropping an entire race with zero explanation or lore reason like the squats, and no the tyranids did not eat them before anyone says it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Check the section describing the Warlord Titan.

Huh, you're right. It's on page 18. I must have always glossed over that bit because it flatly contradicts the fluff on the previous pages (page 11 especially), which is completely unequivocal that Titans were first created in the Age of Strife by the newly-birthed and explicitly religious Cult Mechanicum.

Reading further, it seems Knights have always been DAoT tech, though. And not originally anything to do with Mars or the Mechanicum (or the Dragon). So giant bipedal war engines do seem to have been invented more than once by humans, and in some cases without any supernatural influence/implications. So... yeah. Wading through shallow seas. That's my totally unfalsifiable theory, and I'm sticking to it!

With Today’s technology we can’t even come close to understanding the technology put into a titan. Concerns like being bipedal and sink holes and big target don’t really matter because I’m sure the IOM has thought of those thing during R&D. For example humans are bipedal and for the most part have good balance. I’m sure they made bipedal titans have similar inner and outer workings as the human body. The titan being a big target, well it has void shields. The titan sinking in quick sand and sink holes, well I’m sure the IOM has developed some form of figuring out if their equipment will be compatible in certain terrain.

It’s ridiculous but you could easily justify everything lore wise by simply saying because their technology is so good, so advanced which we have no fanthom of conceiving, that titans work.

usmcmidn wrote:
Concerns like being bipedal and sink holes and big target don’t really matter because I’m sure the IOM has thought of those thing during R&D. For example humans are bipedal and for the most part have good balance. I’m sure they made bipedal titans have similar inner and outer workings as the human body. The titan being a big target, well it has void shields

Humans have terrible balance, relative to four legged animals. Our inherent bipedal advantages lie elsewhere. The advantages massively outweigh the disadvantages though, if we're talking about the same inherent pro's and cons in relation to four legged creatures. Similarly, these advantages would not be as pronounced if our brains weren't evolving along with the rest of our body to make the most use of walking on two legs.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Concerns like being bipedal and sink holes and big target don’t really matter because I’m sure the IOM has thought of those thing during R&D. For example humans are bipedal and for the most part have good balance. I’m sure they made bipedal titans have similar inner and outer workings as the human body. The titan being a big target, well it has void shields

Humans have terrible balance, relative to four legged animals. Our inherent bipedal advantages lie elsewhere. The advantages massively outweigh the disadvantages though, if we're talking about the same inherent pro's and cons in relation to four legged creatures. Similarly, these advantages would not be as pronounced if our brains weren't evolving along with the rest of our body to make the most use of walking on two legs.

Actually we have good balance, and it is easy for us to adjust it (like for an unstable ground). What four legs have is better stability. The advantage two legs gives us is in energy efficiency. From what I have heard it saves us a packet of chocolate biscuits worth of energy over our lifetimes. This enabled us to have more children in our lifetime. Enabling us to breed like a virus.

This comic made me think of this thread.

 Peregrine wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder why they even exist in the first place.

Because space Jesus commands it. From any realistic point of view an equal investment in tanks will slaughter anyone foolish enough to waste resources on a vehicle with massive ground pressure and stability issues, zero ability to hide out of LOS, paper-thin armor, and extremely weak guns for its size. But in 40k space Jesus commands it, and "rule of cool" says that titans will appear on the battlefield. Just accept that titans are cool and don't try to think about it too much.

True which is why Tau usually do well against Titans because THEY do invest in tanks todestroy Titans.

godking wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder why they even exist in the first place.

Because space Jesus commands it. From any realistic point of view an equal investment in tanks will slaughter anyone foolish enough to waste resources on a vehicle with massive ground pressure and stability issues, zero ability to hide out of LOS, paper-thin armor, and extremely weak guns for its size. But in 40k space Jesus commands it, and "rule of cool" says that titans will appear on the battlefield. Just accept that titans are cool and don't try to think about it too much.

True which is why Tau usually do well against Titans because THEY do invest in tanks todestroy Titans.

They invest in smaller Titans you mean. Hence the Stormsurge.

And the Supremacy Suit that is Warhound sized.

But I guess Blue Communist Space Jesus said so.

pm713 wrote:

godking wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder why they even exist in the first place.

Because space Jesus commands it. From any realistic point of view an equal investment in tanks will slaughter anyone foolish enough to waste resources on a vehicle with massive ground pressure and stability issues, zero ability to hide out of LOS, paper-thin armor, and extremely weak guns for its size. But in 40k space Jesus commands it, and "rule of cool" says that titans will appear on the battlefield. Just accept that titans are cool and don't try to think about it too much.

True which is why Tau usually do well against Titans because THEY do invest in tanks todestroy Titans.

They invest in smaller Titans you mean. Hence the Stormsurge.

True but they where destroying Titans with tanks before investing in smaller Titans

Tyran wrote:
And the Supremacy Suit that is Warhound sized.

But I guess Blue Communist Space Jesus said so.

Not far off. The huge FW suits are explicitly stated to be the work of a single earth caste engineer who is generally considered insane, has been reprimanded for wasting resources, and is currently defying orders to return home for reeducation.

 Peregrine wrote:

Tyran wrote:
And the Supremacy Suit that is Warhound sized.

But I guess Blue Communist Space Jesus said so.

Not far off. The huge FW suits are explicitly stated to be the work of a single earth caste engineer who is generally considered insane, has been reprimanded for wasting resources, and is currently defying orders to return home for reeducation.

Tau'ni Cau'terril.

I'm curious if the lore permits for Titans to be a tactically sound unit. That is, are there plausible scenarios where Titans make sense, inside the general cannon, and don't have to be justified with "space jesus said so" or "the Imperium is backwards and wasteful".

Here is my shot at that.

Ground combat in 40k takes place in situations where there is something on the planet important enough that nuking it from orbit is a bad idea. Considering that there are only so many planets in a sector that are suitable for growing humans on, and that on 40k timescales spending 20 generations to turn a conquered planet into a breadbasket/forgeworld/hive world that produces food/weapons/bodies for the grinder is a viable strategic goal, a planet simply being habitable is worth spending a few million lives.

Surfaced based void shields and weaponry can be stronger/more powerful than ship mounted versions of the same, because you can build bigger plasma reactors on a planet than you can stick on a ship. In theory, this means you could fortify a planet to the point that it has sufficient overlapping orbital-defense weapons* that are heavily enough shielded that the only way to take the planet would be to break it into tiny chunks from far away. In practice, making a planet that heavily fortified is apparently really expensive and rare. I'm basing this on the logic that building enough fortresses that can solo a superheavy capital warship to cover an entire planet is going to be more expensive than just building several superheavy capital warships, and unless you are Eldar, you can't take your planet with you when you want to go smash someones stuff.

So the typical ground war that the Imperium has to fight is going to be some variation of limited orbital-defense fortifications that are protected by ground forces. The more important the planet, the heavier the fortifications and larger the ground forces are going to be. In order to fight the ground forces, the Imperium has to bring its own ground forces: infantry, armor, and artillery for conventional warfare, scions/Astartes for special ops and surgical strikes, air defense and aircraft for gaining air superiority, and siege weapons for breaking the fortress once the ground war is won.

I think Titan's act as a multi-role generalist. A Titan can kill armor, it can kill infantry, it can kill superheavies, and it can break void shields. It can't do any of those things as well as specialized units can, but it makes up for it in being flexible. A Shadowsword platoon is going to be better at killing superheavies and breaking void shields than a Titan will be, but that Shadowsword platoon is more vulnerable to enemy tanks/infantry/artillery/airstrikes because they move slower and don't have void shields to tank hits with. The same concept applies to other roles: a Titan is not going to be able to clear a city the way an infantry division is, but that infantry division can't respond to a surprise attack from an armored company the way the Titan can.

babelfish wrote:
I'm curious if the lore permits for Titans to be a tactically sound unit. That is, are there plausible scenarios where Titans make sense, inside the general cannon, and don't have to be justified with "space jesus said so" or "the Imperium is backwards and wasteful".

Here is my shot at that.

Ground combat in 40k takes place in situations where there is something on the planet important enough that nuking it from orbit is a bad idea. Considering that there are only so many planets in a sector that are suitable for growing humans on, and that on 40k timescales spending 20 generations to turn a conquered planet into a breadbasket/forgeworld/hive world that produces food/weapons/bodies for the grinder is a viable strategic goal, a planet simply being habitable is worth spending a few million lives.

Surfaced based void shields and weaponry can be stronger/more powerful than ship mounted versions of the same, because you can build bigger plasma reactors on a planet than you can stick on a ship. In theory, this means you could fortify a planet to the point that it has sufficient overlapping orbital-defense weapons* that are heavily enough shielded that the only way to take the planet would be to break it into tiny chunks from far away. In practice, making a planet that heavily fortified is apparently really expensive and rare. I'm basing this on the logic that building enough fortresses that can solo a superheavy capital warship to cover an entire planet is going to be more expensive than just building several superheavy capital warships, and unless you are Eldar, you can't take your planet with you when you want to go smash someones stuff.

So the typical ground war that the Imperium has to fight is going to be some variation of limited orbital-defense fortifications that are protected by ground forces. The more important the planet, the heavier the fortifications and larger the ground forces are going to be. In order to fight the ground forces, the Imperium has to bring its own ground forces: infantry, armor, and artillery for conventional warfare, scions/Astartes for special ops and surgical strikes, air defense and aircraft for gaining air superiority, and siege weapons for breaking the fortress once the ground war is won.

I think Titan's act as a multi-role generalist. A Titan can kill armor, it can kill infantry, it can kill superheavies, and it can break void shields. It can't do any of those things as well as specialized units can, but it makes up for it in being flexible. A Shadowsword platoon is going to be better at killing superheavies and breaking void shields than a Titan will be, but that Shadowsword platoon is more vulnerable to enemy tanks/infantry/artillery/airstrikes because they move slower and don't have void shields to tank hits with. The same concept applies to other roles: a Titan is not going to be able to clear a city the way an infantry division is, but that infantry division can't respond to a surprise attack from an armored company the way the Titan can.

The problem is why don't Shadowswords or other vehicles have higher output engines and have void shields since we know superheavy transport/command vehicles like the Capitol Imperialis can? If you can make a bipedal Titan carry a plasma reactor and void shield generators, then you could do the same for a vehicle.

Titans are higher tech than Shadowswords, and require specialized landers and Tech Priest support. Arguably it is easier to throw more lower tech units (wielding comparable firepower) at an enemy than having to support a higher maintenance higher tech unit that tries to pack it all in one package.

Titans are used for the same reason we use tanks; they are a projection of force on a level that enemies without similar specialized equipment can't hope to counter.

People seem to be having difficulty with this in the thread primarily because our own capabilities to produce mechs are at a level equivalent to preceding WWI with tanks. WWI tanks could barely move 5 mph (less than a jogging soldier), had terribly inefficient engines, relatively modest weapons, could easily get stuck in the mud or trenches of No Man's Land and had armor that could be penetrated by heavy machine guns, much less the massed artillery of the time. The average armchair general likely dismissed them as novelties of war good for terrorizing green troops, but overall terribly inefficient for battle.

In comparison to those WWI Mark I tanks, 40K titans are on par with M1 Abrams or Challenger tanks. We simply can't conceive of the technology that makes them viable or useful in war. Yes, an infantryman with a $100 LAW can take out a $10 million tank (not actual price, just a comparison), but we still see the value in bringing tanks to many of our conflicts because in other areas besides direct firepower, the tank wins handily.

As for their actual use, I'm guessing most Planetary Defense Forces or Xenos raiding forces don't have the firepower to challenge one, let alone several. Worlds that aren't fortified and/or don't possess access to their own titans or titan hunting weapons would likely quit the fight if an enemy deployed a titan. There are certainly worlds with massed defenses or enemy titans of their own, but I suspect that counted amid the great variety of worlds in the 40K galaxy, they're relatively few overall - I suspect the same sort of distribution of our own world's uninhabited/lone homestead/small town/medium town/city/metropolis in our own world. Imagine driving an Abrams tank in do deal with a lone militiaman in Montana, vs. bringing one to quell a rebellion in New York.

And for the cost in material, instead of that one titan you could bring more than one similarly impregnable superheavies that for the same weight will have better armour and be harder to shoot.