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the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perfect ambush only affects infantry. Cap gsc death beam at 8 mortal wounds. Make kellermorph 85 pts.

No strats, no relics, no warlord traits in the aux low slot.

Guardsmen go to 5 pts. Orders function on a 4+, conscripts get no orders.

Doom goes to wc 8.

So, for the rest of it I get "nerf everything that's not my army kthxbye" but what non-infantry GSC unit is abusing Perfect ambush in your mind?

Surely that strat is mostly being used with aberrants/acolytes, right?

Bikes with charges.

Also, don't you think ba have been hit enough? I also have some ig and they need nerfs badly.

I don't want to get my hopes up for anything significant. I want to see specific rule changes that buff both useless rules (like reanimation protocols) and underwhelming units (like flayed ones) but that's too much to expect from an FAQ unfortunately.

All I think we will see are small tweaks to the overall game

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perfect ambush only affects infantry. Cap gsc death beam at 8 mortal wounds. Make kellermorph 85 pts.

No strats, no relics, no warlord traits in the aux low slot.

Guardsmen go to 5 pts. Orders function on a 4+, conscripts get no orders.

Doom goes to wc 8.

So, for the rest of it I get "nerf everything that's not my army kthxbye" but what non-infantry GSC unit is abusing Perfect ambush in your mind?

Surely that strat is mostly being used with aberrants/acolytes, right?

Bikes with charges.

Also, don't you think ba have been hit enough? I also have some ig and they need nerfs badly.

I'd argue the above would relegate infantry based guard armies to the scrap heap... It's a tad too far.

Are you serious? Theyre still the best value in the game with those rules. Id still use them for sure. At 5pts, they should get no orders and no regiment like cultists. That change is actually insufficient.

It still bothers me that most people fixate on Doom for what's wrong with CWE.

It's a tool primarily aimed at the big offenders in the meta: Castellian + Soup lists are where it shines. Against lists without a massive LoW or Deathstar, it's really not that impactful.

Nerfing Doom won't help most other lists face Eldar. It's a good power, but it's hardly the only reroll-wounds in the game, and is only stronger than other reroll-wounds when you're shooting at a single target that takes most of your army to remove.

It's the to-hit-penalty stacking or the Flyer shenanigans or things like that that should be fixed. Nerfing Doom just buffs Castellan + Soup lists, which certainly don't need help right now.

I'm sick of doom. What can i say? Specifically, its wc is really out of whack with its effects.

Don't you play BA/IG? What usually gets Doomed in your game, when you face it?

Whatever the feth they want. I can't stop them.

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perfect ambush only affects infantry. Cap gsc death beam at 8 mortal wounds. Make kellermorph 85 pts.

No strats, no relics, no warlord traits in the aux low slot.

Guardsmen go to 5 pts. Orders function on a 4+, conscripts get no orders.

Doom goes to wc 8.

So, for the rest of it I get "nerf everything that's not my army kthxbye" but what non-infantry GSC unit is abusing Perfect ambush in your mind?

Surely that strat is mostly being used with aberrants/acolytes, right?

Bikes with charges.

Also, don't you think ba have been hit enough? I also have some ig and they need nerfs badly.

....you think Bikes with demo charges is a "nerf guardsmen" level OP thing?

The ability to, for 3 command points, have a 50% chance of getting your bike units in range to throw demo charges for a further CP, assuming the opponent has zero screen, seems over the top to you?

This is why I tend to not be able to take your balancing opinions seriously. you're usually like "Reasonable call for nerf, reasonable call for nerf, CRAZY KNEEJERK NERF TO SOMETHING RANDOM, reasonable call for nerf."

I had to double check this to make sure I had it right, and I do.

So here's what you have to do:

Take a unit of bikers with demo charges, 5x of them is 75 points, pretty cheap.

Spend 3CP on A Perfect Ambush after you've deployed them outside of 9". Assume that your opponent has no screen on some kind of vehicle, let's say it's T7 Sv3+ like most vehicles.

Roll a 4 or better on the D6 for perfect ambush to get within 6".

use a 1CP stratagem to let those 5 models all throw their (once per game) demo charges.

5D6 demo charge shots, so that's 7.8 damage against a vehicle on average.

Wow! That is most certainly something on the same competitive level as kellermorph, guardsmen, doom eldar soup interactions, and knight castellans! Why, if I wanted to do that level of damage with other anti tank weapons like lascannons, I'd have to successfully wound with....two lascannons!

They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

"Whatever the feth they want. I can't stop them."
Like what, specifically?

Certainly you're not complaining about a Tac squad getting Doomed. Because needing 15 Dire Avengers to kill a 5-man Tac squad, with Doom it only takes 10? Considering it takes a primary HQ and has a reasonable chance to fail, that doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Are your Rhinos dropping too quickly? Preds? Are you running some sort of LoW or Deathstar?

Pick something other than guardsmen. Its probably expensive and fragile. Eldar have enough firepower already that they don't need this as an autocast.

 Galef wrote:
Another change I'd like to see is a tweak to the Beta Reserves restriction.

We went from "only in your DZ turn 1" to "never on turn 1". I really think there could be a better in between.
Restricting arrival of reserves on the first PLAYER turn would be more than fair. It would mean the player who got first turn is able to, ya know, GET FIRST TURN but not bring in any Reinforcements, but the player who goes second CAN bring in Reinforcements on their first turn in response.

IMO, this would make a huge difference in the first turn advantage. I mean, currently if you go second and have Reinforcements, you have to weather 2 whole opponent's turns before getting to use them!
But, if you could bring in Reinforcements before your opponent, going second doesn't sting so bad

-

This, absolutely.

Also seconding (thirding? fourthing?) the call to do something about allied CP generation, allies should not be all benefit and no downside. Also, bumping Battalions to 5 CPs and Brigades to 12 CPs was a mistake.

And Bolter Drill needs tweaking so Autobolters and Stalkers aren't the wrong choice against every target.

For comparision:
10 "boltgun" BS3+ S4 AP0 shots shooting Marines:
"Normal": 10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 10/9, or about 1.1 dead Marines
"Doomed": 10x(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 15/9, or about 1.67 dead marines dead Marines
"Lt/Capt": 10x[(2/3)+(1/6)(2/3)][(1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)](1/3) = 245/162, or about 1.5 dead Marines

So Lt/Capt isn't quite as good as Doom for an individual target

Upsides of Doom:
-Shooter needn't be inside a bubble
-Is roughly 10% stronger (in this case

Upsides of Lt/Capt:
-Target needn't be within 24"
-Affects *all* targets of units inside the bubble, not just one
-No 17% chance to fail, even after using rerolls
-Not just shooting attacks
-Models are considerably better in CC

So Doom is, at best, 10% better. But with a 17% failure chance off the top (can't be CPed further). And drops to useless after the target dies. And comes on a model that does much worse itself.

The real problem is CWE is more powerful than SM. Because Lt/Captain is a *much* nicer buff than Doom, especially for the price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Pick something other than guardsmen. Its probably expensive and fragile. Eldar have enough firepower already that they don't need this as an autocast."
Fine, Marines.

I've now spent a primary HQ to kill less than 2 Marines. Doom is doing about as much in this case as a Captain with a Combi Plas.

To be fair, doom is shortly followed by dissy cannons, so i think galef has the best point.

Bharring wrote:
For comparision:
10 "boltgun" BS3+ S4 AP0 shots shooting Marines:
"Normal": 10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 10/9, or about 1.1 dead Marines
"Doomed": 10x(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 15/9, or about 1.67 dead marines dead Marines
"Lt/Capt": 10x[(2/3)+(1/6)(2/3)][(1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)](1/3) = 245/162, or about 1.5 dead Marines

So Lt/Capt isn't quite as good as Doom for an individual target

Upsides of Doom:
-Shooter needn't be inside a bubble
-Is roughly 10% stronger (in this case

Upsides of Lt/Capt:
-Target needn't be within 24"
-Affects *all* targets of units inside the bubble, not just one
-No 17% chance to fail, even after using rerolls
-Not just shooting attacks
-Models are considerably better in CC

So Doom is, at best, 10% better. But with a 17% failure chance off the top (can't be CPed further). And drops to useless after the target dies. And comes on a model that does much worse itself.

The real problem is CWE is more powerful than SM. Because Lt/Captain is a *much* nicer buff than Doom, especially for the price.

While I don't agree with Martel that Doom needs a Nerf, there are some things to consider:
A) Shuriken weapons are NOT bolters. Rerolling to wound gives a sizable bump in how many 6s you roll and therefore more AP-3
B) The units that benefit most from Doom aren't always Craftworlders. DE Splinter weapons, Dissies, Harlie Haywire, etc all get significant bumps in efficiency and were NOT "calibrated" with Doom in mind, therefore the balance is off.
Several DE and Harlie lists squeezing in a small detachment just for a DoomSeer should be evidence of how imbalanced this is

Restrict Doom to only benefit Asuryani units and 95% of the issue goes away.

-

Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)

As far as I can tell, Martel is a part of the "we don't understand it, but saw it happen vaguely once, so we better nerf it, since it isn't my army" crowd. Best to ignore all of them.

Martel732 wrote:
Perfect ambush only affects infantry. Cap gsc death beam at 8 mortal wounds. Make kellermorph 85 pts.

No strats, no relics, no warlord traits in the aux low slot.

Guardsmen go to 5 pts. Orders function on a 4+, conscripts get no orders.

Doom goes to wc 8.

What about Scion orders? Their whole thing is following orders and they pay 9ppm. Can they have their orders not need a roll in your opinion?

the_scotsman wrote:
This is why I tend to not be able to take your balancing opinions seriously. you're usually like "Reasonable call for nerf, reasonable call for nerf, CRAZY KNEEJERK NERF TO SOMETHING RANDOM, reasonable call for nerf."

I'm not sure A, B & D are ever managed, scotsman.

I'd like proper clarification on the GSC '1st Turn Deepstrike' debate.

Banville wrote:
I'd like proper clarification on the GSC '1st Turn Deepstrike' debate.

It's already been clarified by the GSC FAQ, I don't know what more they can do.

My dream scenario would be to forbid TITANIC units in matched play below a 3000 point limit, but that won't happen because GW need to keep selling two quid of plastic for two hundred.

I also would like to see a change to the CP system. CP should only be generated by detachments matching all of your Warlords faction keywords and you should only have access to your warlord's faction stratagems.

What I would like to see:

Artillery weapons firing at targets without LOS get -1 to hit.
12" minimum range for artillery weapons including Mortars.
Guard infantry become 5pts per model, Vets to 6pts but have carapace armour.
Primaris able to use Rhinos (counts as 2 models), Land Raiders, Razor backs etc.
Marines have 2A base,
All Marines and Guard can select a Chainsword for 1pt per model.
Sisters hand flamers same price as GS cults HFs
Until sorted out Sisters AOF go back to Index version (same as Guard Crusaders....)
In an Army the only the Warlord's subfacton can have more than one Strategem player per turn.
Sisters and Marines Chapter Tacitcs effect [[sub faction]] vehicles etc.

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
For comparision:
10 "boltgun" BS3+ S4 AP0 shots shooting Marines:
"Normal": 10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 10/9, or about 1.1 dead Marines
"Doomed": 10x(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 15/9, or about 1.67 dead marines dead Marines
"Lt/Capt": 10x[(2/3)+(1/6)(2/3)][(1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)](1/3) = 245/162, or about 1.5 dead Marines

So Lt/Capt isn't quite as good as Doom for an individual target

Upsides of Doom:
-Shooter needn't be inside a bubble
-Is roughly 10% stronger (in this case

Upsides of Lt/Capt:
-Target needn't be within 24"
-Affects *all* targets of units inside the bubble, not just one
-No 17% chance to fail, even after using rerolls
-Not just shooting attacks
-Models are considerably better in CC

So Doom is, at best, 10% better. But with a 17% failure chance off the top (can't be CPed further). And drops to useless after the target dies. And comes on a model that does much worse itself.

The real problem is CWE is more powerful than SM. Because Lt/Captain is a *much* nicer buff than Doom, especially for the price.

While I don't agree with Martel that Doom needs a Nerf, there are some things to consider:
A) Shuriken weapons are NOT bolters. Rerolling to wound gives a sizable bump in how many 6s you roll and therefore more AP-3
B) The units that benefit most from Doom aren't always Craftworlders. DE Splinter weapons, Dissies, Harlie Haywire, etc all get significant bumps in efficiency and were NOT "calibrated" with Doom in mind, therefore the balance is off.
Several DE and Harlie lists squeezing in a small detachment just for a DoomSeer should be evidence of how imbalanced this is

Restrict Doom to only benefit Asuryani units and 95% of the issue goes away.

-

I just said your idea was better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pleasestop wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)

As far as I can tell, Martel is a part of the "we don't understand it, but saw it happen vaguely once, so we better nerf it, since it isn't my army" crowd. Best to ignore all of them.

You would be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perfect ambush only affects infantry. Cap gsc death beam at 8 mortal wounds. Make kellermorph 85 pts.

No strats, no relics, no warlord traits in the aux low slot.

Guardsmen go to 5 pts. Orders function on a 4+, conscripts get no orders.

Doom goes to wc 8.

What about Scion orders? Their whole thing is following orders and they pay 9ppm. Can they have their orders not need a roll in your opinion?

Yes, 9 is a price point that justifies substanstial abilities. 4 and 5 point models should be super barebones.

I'm hopeful power armor can get buffed, something akin to +1 save vs. ap0, 1 or reroll 1's, or reduce damage b 1.

I'd like to see the beta bolter rule become the bolter rule.

I'd like to see a ruling on Oblits, either 65, something in the middle, or 115.

I'd like to see command points mirrior age of sigmar, yo get one for each unit in your army, 1 +1 every turn if your leader is alive. This would curtail detachment abuse. I'd also like to see a cap on CP, in this case no matter what, you can never have more than 12 CP or something to that effect.

I'd love to see AoV be open to all armies.

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

Bharring wrote:
For comparision:
10 "boltgun" BS3+ S4 AP0 shots shooting Marines:
"Normal": 10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 10/9, or about 1.1 dead Marines
"Doomed": 10x(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 15/9, or about 1.67 dead marines dead Marines
"Lt/Capt": 10x[(2/3)+(1/6)(2/3)][(1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)](1/3) = 245/162, or about 1.5 dead Marines

So Lt/Capt isn't quite as good as Doom for an individual target

Upsides of Doom:
-Shooter needn't be inside a bubble
-Is roughly 10% stronger (in this case

Upsides of Lt/Capt:
-Target needn't be within 24"
-Affects *all* targets of units inside the bubble, not just one
-No 17% chance to fail, even after using rerolls
-Not just shooting attacks
-Models are considerably better in CC

So Doom is, at best, 10% better. But with a 17% failure chance off the top (can't be CPed further). And drops to useless after the target dies. And comes on a model that does much worse itself.

The real problem is CWE is more powerful than SM. Because Lt/Captain is a *much* nicer buff than Doom, especially for the price.

While I don't agree with Martel that Doom needs a Nerf, there are some things to consider:

A) Shuriken weapons are NOT bolters. Rerolling to wound gives a sizable bump in how many 6s you roll and therefore more AP-3

However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is seperate (although, as stated, it'd take 15 Dire Avengers, at 11ppm, to wipe a 5-man squad - for a unit shooting it's ideal target, that's about right - it takes 13.5 Marines to wipe a 5man DA sqaud).

B) The units that benefit most from Doom aren't always Craftworlders. DE Splinter weapons, Dissies, Harlie Haywire, etc all get significant bumps in efficiency and were NOT "calibrated" with Doom in mind, therefore the balance is off.

That's certainly unintended. And Harlie Haywire is one of the few places Doom gets to reach (or exceed) doubling the firepower vs a specific target. Which is basically the same as halving it's survivability. Which is *really* *really* good. But it only works because you're shooting a T8+ target. And Haywire is only super good because it's really hard to get through T8 3++ without it. And Doom only really matters because you're shooting most of your army at a *single target*.

Take any one of those things away, and it changes. Doom doesn't buff Harlie Haywire vs T7 as much. T8 models without an good ++ can be countered by anti-tank weapons. If you're only shooting a a unit or two at a target, you're not getting as much of a benefit.

Several DE and Harlie lists squeezing in a small detachment just for a DoomSeer should be evidence of how imbalanced this is

Restrict Doom to only benefit Asuryani units and 95% of the issue goes away.

-

I agree that it's better than it should be, especially for those other factions. My disagreement is in why it's so good.

It's so good because you can rely on running up against lists with one ideal target for it. It's so good because there are T8 3++ units in the game with too much firepower to ignore, too many wounds to burn through, and too many obsticles to CC. It's so good because you're definitely fighting a Knight.

Imagine a matchup versus the same list, but with a ton of Marine squads or mid-range vehilces instead of the Knight. What's doom going to do for you then? Not nearly as much.

Outside very specific matchups (such as the everpresent 3++ Castellan list), Lt/Capt does far more than Doom, far more reliably.

If the IoM soup with a 3++ Castellan weren't so meta, Doom wouldn't be so powerful. If the rest of Aeldari weren't so strong, Doom wouldn't matter so much.

Nerfing Doom buffs 3++ Castellans, and doesn't help most other lists much when they face Aeldari.

It's not an ideal nerf.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What I would like to see:

[SNIP]
Sisters hand flamers same price as GS cults HFs

SoB Hand Flamers are 3 points - what do GSC (or Blood Angels, for that matter) pay for them?

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)

There's a logical fallacy in there somewhere.

Its clear ive got two strats switched or gsc opponents have been misinterpreting their rules. Forget the bikes thing.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What I would like to see:

[SNIP]
Sisters hand flamers same price as GS cults HFs

SoB Hand Flamers are 3 points - what do GSC (or Blood Angels, for that matter) pay for them?

GSC pay 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.

Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)

There's a logical fallacy in there somewhere.

Its clear ive got two strats switched or gsc opponents have been misinterpreting their rules. Forget the bikes thing.

Pointing out logical fallacies as a means of argument is in itself a logical fallacy...
]

Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-