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What stratagems were recosted for cheap guard CP? Or is that hypothetical?
What armies rely on CP farms to get stratagems? Not min/max them to get more like Loyal 32 powering a Knight, but actually rely on souping/CP farming in order to function?
Eihnlazer wrote: Im all for upping guardsment to 5ppm, but they should really make it so that single codex armies gain a bonus to CP as well if they aren't gonna change the current CP generation method.
Add something to battle forged for example. "if your army consists of detachments that have completely the same Keywords, you gain an additional 3CP".
This would help a lot with curbing the loyal 32/rusty 17 problem.
if a battalion is still 5CP +3CP wouldn't be enough it would probably have to be +6 or auch to even remotely be worth it and this also punishes Drukari, Yannari etc just to fix a mainly Guard issue.
It's not a "Guard" issue. It's a soup issue.
The fact that we saw two different iterations(Conscripts+Commissars-->Infantry Squads once Conscripts+Commissars got hammered) of this from the outset of 8th, and now also see a third(AdMech has made an appearance in a few spots) option? And we've seen similar soup issues with the Aeldari factions?
That tells you literally everything you should need to know. But for whatever reason it's always "Waah, waaah, waaah nerf Guard!"
You want 5ppm Infantry Squads?
You damn well better be supporting 6ppm Brood Brothers and Neophyte Hybrids.
Haven't had the displeasure of facing GSC yet to judge how they're balanced or not, but the issue with GSC as an outsider seams to be less in the model's points and more in the insane strategum stacking they can pull along with some undercosted weapons.
Haven't had the displeasure of facing GSC yet to judge how they're balanced or not, but the issue with GSC as an outsider seams to be less in the model's points and more in the insane strategum stacking they can pull along with some undercosted weapons.
For everything you lot complain about with regards to Infantry Squads? Neophytes and Brood Brothers are the same damn unit as the Infantry Squads.
Oh, and with the 'Bodyguard' ability native and a point higher LD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/05 13:13:17
Wayniac wrote: What stratagems were recosted for cheap guard CP? Or is that hypothetical?
What armies rely on CP farms to get stratagems? Not min/max them to get more like Loyal 32 powering a Knight, but actually rely on souping/CP farming in order to function?
The BA strategums were recosted based on captain smash's potential in Guard CP regen soup and post nerfs are a dead codex.
Knights strategums have been recosted for Castellen + guard and resulted in certain strategums being 50% of a pure lists CP on a single strategum.
Ultramarine named charictors are stuck with a dysfunctional manditory warlord trait thanks to an guard in imperial soup driven nerf.
GSC codex contains a specific rule to prevent guard CP generation shenanigans.
An adress to CP, especially now that we get even MORE cp shenanigans now in chaos aswell.
More impactfull terrain.
Soup interaction addressed: we are now at a point were imperials can summon Dameons (Fallen thank you)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Wayniac wrote: What stratagems were recosted for cheap guard CP? Or is that hypothetical?
What armies rely on CP farms to get stratagems? Not min/max them to get more like Loyal 32 powering a Knight, but actually rely on souping/CP farming in order to function?
The BA strategums were recosted based on captain smash's potential in Guard CP regen soup and post nerfs are a dead codex.
Knights strategums have been recosted for Castellen + guard and resulted in certain strategums being 50% of a pure lists CP on a single strategum.
Ultramarine named charictors are stuck with a dysfunctional manditory warlord trait thanks to an guard in imperial soup driven nerf.
GSC codex contains a specific rule to prevent guard CP generation shenanigans.
The GSC codex contains that rule because the actual GSC book can do a very good approximation of a Guard Brigade from the outset.
Also, the Brood Brothers unit is literally built around you having a Guard Detachment with them since you can receive Orders from the Guard side of things. It was a whole big thing at launch since the Brood Brothers regiment tag allowed for Tempestus being ordered by Company Commanders and Ogryns/Bullgryns and Ratlings to actually receive Orders RAW.
Martel732 wrote: No, I think there needs to be legit less power armor in the game. I offer up BA as tribute.
What could have been a glorious exit against insurmountable bugs is now just going to be more NPCing for Abbaddon.
Ok, but what about people that actually bought the army. They wouldn't be able to use their models.
To remind GK players what could happen to them if they don't stop complaining!
(Totally kidding. In all seriousness, GW is more likely to go the GK route with a faction they want to squat than do the above. Even with Corsairs, they technically didn't remove the last few entries, and even FAQed them into less-hosed status - although they're still much worse off than GK.)
How is that different from saying 12 Bolter hits kill 2 MEQ but 12 MeltaGun hits kill 10 MEQ?
Shuriken *is* deadlier to Marines within range - it's supposed to be better.
It comes in:
-12" range on a GEQ that costs twice that of a Guardsman - with the bulk of that cost being the gun
-18" range on a T3 4+ model at 11ppm - just 2ppm less than Marines for half the durability to small arms.
Shuriken per-shot *should* be deadlier. It's a lot costlier.
Sorry - I get lost in the swirling arguments sometimes. My end is the lift of Doom. I think Shurikens are priced (mostly) fine.
Considering stuff like the reaper chaincannon being heavy 8, I'd say rapid fire 3 wouldn't exactly be game breaking but might make tac squads a little better.
RF2 would be appropriate without a cost increase. Then squads standing still get 4 shots if beta bolter applies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/05 13:37:32
I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
Because when your stratagems are based around NOT having a ton of CP, and you can get a ton of CP to power it multiple times, it becomes a problem. When CP is such a hot commodity that it encourages CP farming, it becomes a problem.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
I can't imagine having that much, I usually only have 4-6CP.
Then again, Necrons aren't doing well.
I'm not going to be forced to run a style of army I don't enjoy (battalions).
My whole collection is based around theme and lore, thus I tend to use Outriders and Spearheads.
The 8th ed Detachment system has rekindled my love of the game because I can finally run the lists I've been wanting to since 4th. They fit the lore and look amazing on the table.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
The problem is that not all stratagems are good. Some stuff are a no-brainer, some are completely irrelevant. For example, if you play a hth focused tyranid list, you can simply not have enough CP, you can literally burn 10+ a turn and it will be barely enough. If you bring a shooty Kronos tyranid list, you can use single minded anihilation and perhaps pathogenic slime and that's about it. Stratagems among armies are also quite badly made. For example:
auspex scan: 2 CP to shoot reinforcements within 12" at -1 to hit.
Prescience (scourged csm stratagem): 2CP to shoot at reinforcements with 12" with no penalty.
Forwarned: 2 CP, shoot at reinforcement anywhere on the table if you're close to the farseer with no penalty.
The effect is the same in all of them if you just read at it, but the real effect on the table is of course super heavily unbalanced.
Eihnlazer wrote: Im all for upping guardsment to 5ppm, but they should really make it so that single codex armies gain a bonus to CP as well if they aren't gonna change the current CP generation method.
Add something to battle forged for example. "if your army consists of detachments that have completely the same Keywords, you gain an additional 3CP".
This would help a lot with curbing the loyal 32/rusty 17 problem.
if a battalion is still 5CP +3CP wouldn't be enough it would probably have to be +6 or auch to even remotely be worth it and this also punishes Drukari, Yannari etc just to fix a mainly Guard issue.
It's not a "Guard" issue. It's a soup issue.
The fact that we saw two different iterations(Conscripts+Commissars-->Infantry Squads once Conscripts+Commissars got hammered) of this from the outset of 8th, and now also see a third(AdMech has made an appearance in a few spots) option? And we've seen similar soup issues with the Aeldari factions?
That tells you literally everything you should need to know. But for whatever reason it's always "Waah, waaah, waaah nerf Guard!"
You want 5ppm Infantry Squads?
You damn well better be supporting 6ppm Brood Brothers and Neophyte Hybrids.
Who said they wouldn't support those units being 6 points? I haven't a clue what your deal is sometimes outside wanting your units to continue being broken.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I could get behind space marine heavy bolters being rapid fire 2 and falling under the astartes bolter rule. It needs to be a better support weapon because that is what it is. It doesn't need to be a heavy weapon like the other options because its just plainly not good for it.
As for IG heavy bolters? They can stay the same, puny arms and training. Even for tanks I'm betting the space marine has better targeting abilities.
As for SoB heavy bolters? Hopefully they will have their own way of being good. Otherwise, same as IG.
Grey Knights? Well they just need to be all around better so that is just their problem in general.
Who said they wouldn't support those units being 6 points? I haven't a clue what your deal is sometimes outside wanting your units to continue being broken.
Where are the constant slew of threads on Neophytes or Brood Brothers needing to be 6ppm?
Until soup is addressed or Guard Infantry Squads are 100% reworked? I don't give a single crap as to what you lot "think" the problem is. Anyone who was here at the start of 8th should remember that you lot were whining about Conscript Squads first, they got nerfed and then you promptly moved onto the next Guard unit that soup lists started bringing in to get their CPs.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
I can't imagine having that much, I usually only have 4-6CP.
Then again, Necrons aren't doing well.
I'm not going to be forced to run a style of army I don't enjoy (battalions).
My whole collection is based around theme and lore, thus I tend to use Outriders and Spearheads.
The 8th ed Detachment system has rekindled my love of the game because I can finally run the lists I've been wanting to since 4th. They fit the lore and look amazing on the table.
So, I see your point. This is fine. I understand you are playing the game in such a way as to enjoy it, your way. That is awesome.
BUT, for everyone who does it like you, there are three people who think their Knights list with 3 models should get the same amount of CP as the IG player with 150 models. It's pointless to argue that CP is the problem. The problem is the way a person builds a list. I'm sorry my two BNs of Deathwatch and 1 vanguard get 13-14 CP. But guess what? I have zero vehicles or heavy units. All infantry. We all pay a price for our choices.
Every list pays a different price in some way. Complaining that the snowflake list that (royal you) chose to build is somehow deserving of the benefits of my list, is pedantic and a waste of time. I really wish my list included a Knight or Psychers with DOOM. But they don't. I don't get that. I get a ton of shooty infantry with 3++ saves and a bunch of CP. We all pay a price. CP doesn't need to be uniform. Just because you build a list doesn't get you a participation trophy.
Wayniac wrote: What stratagems were recosted for cheap guard CP? Or is that hypothetical?
What armies rely on CP farms to get stratagems? Not min/max them to get more like Loyal 32 powering a Knight, but actually rely on souping/CP farming in order to function?
Orks rely on CP farming to function. They rely on CP to make their Tankbustas, Lootas, and Boyz do obscene amounts of damage. Almost every ork list you see will be double batalion at a minimum, maybe brigade + battalion.
Also Guard/Knight armies sort of rely on it too. I play guard/knights, but I run ~1100 pts of Guard and ~900 pts of Knights in my list. I'm running House Terryn, which is pretty uncommon, but incredibly CP dependent. A single Knight Gallant (and I'm running two of them) can eat 8 CP in a single turn relatively easily. 1 CP to rotate ion shields to survive shooting, 2 CP to charge after advancing, 1 CP to re-roll the charge die or advance die, 3 CP to fight twice, and 1 CP to use Death Grip to try to kill a character. Is this powerful? Damn right! It's quite good! However, it also costs 8 CP, and places my Knight where it's most at risk of dying... close combat. It's not sitting back and relying on the 3++ save and being untouchable in melee because of massive screens. It gets in there, charges, does a lot of damage, and then dies in melee to a smash captain or something. Then it can pay 2 MORE CP, to fight again while dying, to try to kill the smash captain. That means I just spend 10 CP on my Gallant, to get it in there, do a lot of damage, and die. I kind of rely on the guard Brigade providing some of that CP, because it's impossible to power this thing without it. If I can't use the fight twice stratagem or the fight while dying stratagem, there's no reason to use Terryn over Krast, which gets in-built re-roll all failed hits, making it deadlier. Terryn's only really good when you pump CP into it's Gallants.
So there's an unconventional take on using Guard/Knights, where it's not loyal 32 pumping up a single knight, but rather a balanced army of nearly 50/50 guard/knights, where the Guard allow the Knights to actually be viable. Otherwise, a Gallant is probably unlikely to actually be worth it's 350 points, since it has no shooting and only 5 attacks, and can be screened out with chaff units.
BrotherGecko wrote: I could get behind space marine heavy bolters being rapid fire 2 and falling under the astartes bolter rule. It needs to be a better support weapon because that is what it is. It doesn't need to be a heavy weapon like the other options because its just plainly not good for it.
Honestly, the "heavy" bit is a misnomer it seems.
Said it elsewhere, I think that Suspensors would be a good option to come back allowing for Rapid Fire or Assault fire modes. I don't think that just flatout buffing Heavy Bolters all around is a great solution though.
Mainly because otherwise, you get this kind of thing:
As for IG heavy bolters? They can stay the same, puny arms and training. Even for tanks I'm betting the space marine has better targeting abilities.
The problem with this idea is that there's only one instance of a single Guardsman toting around a Heavy Bolter. Otherwise it's a "team" of two, mounting the weapon on a tripod with an ammo belt being fed in.
As for SoB heavy bolters? Hopefully they will have their own way of being good. Otherwise, same as IG.
Guessing they will.
Grey Knights? Well they just need to be all around better so that is just their problem in general.
Grey Knights and Deathwatch, IMO, suffer from being fluffed as these "highly specialized" groups but not having the opportunity to always fight against who they're specialized against.
But Deathwatch? They're actually able to succeed outside of those situations, since they're not also pigeonholed into being all Psykers and part of their whole schtick is flexibility.
It makes me think the best option for Grey Knights is to put them a bit more in line with Custodes than normal Marines. Give them the ability to split units into 'characters' via a Stratagem, things like that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I play with about 13-14 CP per army/game, and I think that's just fine. Why is there a massive hate boner for armies with tons of CP? It's not like CP is breaking the game. I'd say Knights breaking the idea of the game is far more pressing than an opponent being able to use a turn 3 stratagem because of CP batteries. Honestly, I think we have an over fascination with CP, as if it's the great boogeyman. It's not. CP is not breaking the game, and GW thinks so too.
I can't imagine having that much, I usually only have 4-6CP.
Then again, Necrons aren't doing well.
I'm not going to be forced to run a style of army I don't enjoy (battalions).
My whole collection is based around theme and lore, thus I tend to use Outriders and Spearheads.
The 8th ed Detachment system has rekindled my love of the game because I can finally run the lists I've been wanting to since 4th. They fit the lore and look amazing on the table.
So, I see your point. This is fine. I understand you are playing the game in such a way as to enjoy it, your way. That is awesome.
BUT, for everyone who does it like you, there are three people who think their Knights list with 3 models should get the same amount of CP as the IG player with 150 models. It's pointless to argue that CP is the problem. The problem is the way a person builds a list. I'm sorry my two BNs of Deathwatch and 1 vanguard get 13-14 CP. But guess what? I have zero vehicles or heavy units. All infantry. We all pay a price for our choices.
Every list pays a different price in some way. Complaining that the snowflake list that (royal you) chose to build is somehow deserving of the benefits of my list, is pedantic and a waste of time. I really wish my list included a Knight or Psychers with DOOM. But they don't. I don't get that. I get a ton of shooty infantry with 3++ saves and a bunch of CP. We all pay a price. CP doesn't need to be uniform. Just because you build a list doesn't get you a participation trophy.
The point wasn't to just give everyone a flat 5 CP per 500 points and job done, it about balancing the interactions between codex's with 20+ CP in a list with points to spare and codex's with less than 10CP. If CP are universal and can be passed around freely the playing field on generating them needs to be fairer so that strategums can be costed appropriately.
1 strategum that affects the same unit
Let's say rotate ion on a castellen as it's the one everyone loves to hate.
In a pure knights list your maximum CP is 12 real lists are 9 CP. Turn 1 3CP that 33% of the total CP of the list gone. No regen or stealing CP ability in dex
Guard with a Castellen Ally
20CP(fairly sure it's possible) but I know 15CP is plus steal and regen so 21CP for the game
That same 3CP strategum on the same unit is now just 14% of the total CP.
The strategum and unit are the same but the cost just got halfed!!!
It the same crazy design where it less points to add the 32 for 5CP +regen and stealing than to turn my vanguard of marines into a battalion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/05 15:12:36
Who said they wouldn't support those units being 6 points? I haven't a clue what your deal is sometimes outside wanting your units to continue being broken.
Where are the constant slew of threads on Neophytes or Brood Brothers needing to be 6ppm?
Until soup is addressed or Guard Infantry Squads are 100% reworked? I don't give a single crap as to what you lot "think" the problem is. Anyone who was here at the start of 8th should remember that you lot were whining about Conscript Squads first, they got nerfed and then you promptly moved onto the next Guard unit that soup lists started bringing in to get their CPs.
The threads don't pop up because one has been an offender for a MUCH longer time and hasn't been fixed yet. Cults JUST came out so nobody cares as much.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I watched an interview with Nick N. Recently and he suggested they should change all Knights strategems the way Rotate Ion shields is. So it's cheaper for Questoris but more costly for Dominus class knights.
Haven't had the displeasure of facing GSC yet to judge how they're balanced or not, but the issue with GSC as an outsider seams to be less in the model's points and more in the insane strategum stacking they can pull along with some undercosted weapons.
For everything you lot complain about with regards to Infantry Squads? Neophytes and Brood Brothers are the same damn unit as the Infantry Squads.
Oh, and with the 'Bodyguard' ability native and a point higher LD.
Yeah, they just...don't get the ability to double their firepower coming off of a 30pt hq model.
You want a buff HQ for your gsc? You start at 65pts, and there's exactly one model in the whole game that does anything to boost ranged firepower.
How many buffs are there in the guard codex?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
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