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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who said they wouldn't support those units being 6 points? I haven't a clue what your deal is sometimes outside wanting your units to continue being broken.

Where are the constant slew of threads on Neophytes or Brood Brothers needing to be 6ppm?

Until soup is addressed or Guard Infantry Squads are 100% reworked? I don't give a single crap as to what you lot "think" the problem is. Anyone who was here at the start of 8th should remember that you lot were whining about Conscript Squads first, they got nerfed and then you promptly moved onto the next Guard unit that soup lists started bringing in to get their CPs.

The threads don't pop up because one has been an offender for a MUCH longer time and hasn't been fixed yet. Cults JUST came out so nobody cares as much.

Funny how GSC were still a thing in Index format.

The only thing "new" is the mechanics for Cult Ambush having been reworked and Brood Brothers having been split out from Neophytes.

the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, they just...don't get the ability to double their firepower coming off of a 30pt hq model.

You do if you are using the "Brood Brothers" units instead of Neophytes.

You want a buff HQ for your gsc? You start at 65pts, and there's exactly one model in the whole game that does anything to boost ranged firepower.

How many buffs are there in the guard codex?

How many of those "buffs" are stackable?

If you "double your firepower specific to the Lasguns wielded by 9 out of the 10 models in the unit assuming you're not taking any Special or Heavy Weapons", you're not doing anything else to that unit unless:
a) You're buffing them with Psykers.
b) A specific Regiment(Catachan) with characters that grant rerolls. Straken lets you reroll failed Wound rolls when attacking enemy Monsters and Harker(an Elite choice) lets you reroll 1s in the Shooting phase. He grants +1A in CC.
--Subnote: Since this will probably come up, yes there's also the Ministorum Priest who grants +1 to hits in CC.
c) Taking a specific Relic and rolling a 4+.
d) Taking a specific character(Yarrick), allowing rerolls of 1s OR all failed hit rolls when fighting Orks.

By comparison, I can get a hell of a lot more auras going with GSC. I understand that it's not as reliable of a mechanic as Orders are...but I also understand that they don't "lock out" other auras.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who said they wouldn't support those units being 6 points? I haven't a clue what your deal is sometimes outside wanting your units to continue being broken.

Where are the constant slew of threads on Neophytes or Brood Brothers needing to be 6ppm?

Until soup is addressed or Guard Infantry Squads are 100% reworked? I don't give a single crap as to what you lot "think" the problem is. Anyone who was here at the start of 8th should remember that you lot were whining about Conscript Squads first, they got nerfed and then you promptly moved onto the next Guard unit that soup lists started bringing in to get their CPs.

The threads don't pop up because one has been an offender for a MUCH longer time and hasn't been fixed yet. Cults JUST came out so nobody cares as much.

Funny how GSC were still a thing in Index format.

The only thing "new" is the mechanics for Cult Ambush having been reworked and Brood Brothers having been split out from Neophytes.

the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, they just...don't get the ability to double their firepower coming off of a 30pt hq model.

You do if you are using the "Brood Brothers" units instead of Neophytes.

You want a buff HQ for your gsc? You start at 65pts, and there's exactly one model in the whole game that does anything to boost ranged firepower.

How many buffs are there in the guard codex?

How many of those "buffs" are stackable?

If you "double your firepower specific to the Lasguns wielded by 9 out of the 10 models in the unit assuming you're not taking any Special or Heavy Weapons", you're not doing anything else to that unit unless:
a) You're buffing them with Psykers.
b) A specific Regiment(Catachan) with characters that grant rerolls. Straken lets you reroll failed Wound rolls when attacking enemy Monsters and Harker(an Elite choice) lets you reroll 1s in the Shooting phase. He grants +1A in CC.
--Subnote: Since this will probably come up, yes there's also the Ministorum Priest who grants +1 to hits in CC.
c) Taking a specific Relic and rolling a 4+.
d) Taking a specific character(Yarrick), allowing rerolls of 1s OR all failed hit rolls when fighting Orks.

By comparison, I can get a hell of a lot more auras going with GSC. I understand that it's not as reliable of a mechanic as Orders are...but I also understand that they don't "lock out" other auras.

They were sorta a thing. However, because we didn't know how the codex would affect them, nobody really talked about them because of, let's be honest, how wonky the balance was with all the Index lists against each other. Some things were so absurd they might've been talked about a lot (Roboute's old price point, Commisar interactions with Conscripts), but we all knew that points were off for tons of units and we would need to wait for the codex.

Yeah, you can, because Brood brothers are literally a guardsmen copy/paste. And if you do take them, they don't have the <cult> keyword, and all auras in the GSC codex are <cult> coded.

BB's are guardsmen but instead of a regiment trait they get LOS and +1Ld. Also, you can only order them if you take an allied detachment for guard HQs, because you can't take BB company commanders in a GSC detachment, so there's that.

All that said, I would definitely think you'd increase their points value to 5 if guardsmen went up to 5. They're guardsmen. They have access to orders, even if they're awkward to get, and they have a bad <Regiment> but they do have one - if cultists are 5, BB's should definitely be 5.

On to Neophytes.

Neophytes are Guardsmen with the BB trait+a cult trait, which is nice and probably why they are 5 points. They cannot get orders. They have access to the following auras:

+1Ld and +1 to advance and charge. Clamavus, I think 40-ish points?

6++ FNP and reroll LD. Iconward, 65pts.

+1 to hit when shooting one particular enemy unit you select at the beginning of the phase. Alphus, 75pts.

+1 to hit in the fight phase and reroll 1s to wound against one particular enemy unit you select when deploying the HQ model. Primus, 75pts.

Reroll 1s to hit if the aura character has killed a model earlier in the phase. kellermorph, 65pts.

Fearless. Patriarch, 125pts? I forget.

I'd say to be the most fair and leave out subfaction-specific characters and orders, guardsmen have access to:

+1A in the fight phase: Priest, 35pts?

Reroll 1s to hit in fight and shooting: yarrick, I forget his points value, around 80?

Their choice of the whole orders list: commander, as low as 20pts.

Reroll failed morale: Commissar, 25pts.

Definitely less, but the buff characters out of guard are almost all cheaper than the buff characters out of GSC, and they give out buffs that are much more useful to a unit focused on shooting and holding objectives. Neophytes can't double advance, can't double their shooting, and even if you stacked up every available melee buff on them (reroll 1s to hit, +1 to hit, reroll 1s to wound) it's worse than the buff you get out of a priest, which doubles attacks and can in some circumstances be stacked with a double-attack order.

I think there's plenty of good reasoning behind neophytes and guardsmen being the same cost. Guardsmen are more limited in stats and unit construction, but more flexible in terms of the orders system. Yes, I can HAVE many good buffs on my neophytes, but I'm paying usually at least 65 points for each one I want to put down. I can't pay 30 points and just have my choice each turn of what I need - faster movement, better melee, better shooting.

It's like saying if Tac Marines became be 11ppm, should CSM prices change?

Basically the same unit in a different book.

GW evidently doesn't think so. See: cultists v guardsmen.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, you can, because Brood brothers are literally a guardsmen copy/paste. And if you do take them, they don't have the <cult> keyword, and all auras in the GSC codex are <cult> coded.

BB's are guardsmen but instead of a regiment trait they get LOS and +1Ld. Also, you can only order them if you take an allied detachment for guard HQs, because you can't take BB company commanders in a GSC detachment, so there's that.

All that said, I would definitely think you'd increase their points value to 5 if guardsmen went up to 5. They're guardsmen. They have access to orders, even if they're awkward to get, and they have a bad <Regiment> but they do have one - if cultists are 5, BB's should definitely be 5.

On to Neophytes.

Neophytes are Guardsmen with the BB trait+a cult trait, which is nice and probably why they are 5 points. They cannot get orders. They have access to the following auras:

+1Ld and +1 to advance and charge. Clamavus, I think 40-ish points?

6++ FNP and reroll LD. Iconward, 65pts.

+1 to hit when shooting one particular enemy unit you select at the beginning of the phase. Alphus, 75pts.

+1 to hit in the fight phase and reroll 1s to wound against one particular enemy unit you select when deploying the HQ model. Primus, 75pts.

Reroll 1s to hit if the aura character has killed a model earlier in the phase. kellermorph, 65pts.

Fearless. Patriarch, 125pts? I forget.

I'd say to be the most fair and leave out subfaction-specific characters and orders, guardsmen have access to:

+1A in the fight phase: Priest, 35pts?

Reroll 1s to hit in fight and shooting: yarrick, I forget his points value, around 80?

Their choice of the whole orders list: commander, as low as 20pts.

Reroll failed morale: Commissar, 25pts.

Definitely less, but the buff characters out of guard are almost all cheaper than the buff characters out of GSC, and they give out buffs that are much more useful to a unit focused on shooting and holding objectives. Neophytes can't double advance, can't double their shooting, and even if you stacked up every available melee buff on them (reroll 1s to hit, +1 to hit, reroll 1s to wound) it's worse than the buff you get out of a priest, which doubles attacks and can in some circumstances be stacked with a double-attack order.

I think there's plenty of good reasoning behind neophytes and guardsmen being the same cost. Guardsmen are more limited in stats and unit construction, but more flexible in terms of the orders system. Yes, I can HAVE many good buffs on my neophytes, but I'm paying usually at least 65 points for each one I want to put down. I can't pay 30 points and just have my choice each turn of what I need - faster movement, better melee, better shooting.

t


Buffs on GSC also tend to be on auras or on better characters -- a 20 pt cc does nothing besides shout at one person, while the 75 pt alphus can move 12+", has a decent sniper rifle and a better statline.

Ask marines how well expensive aura characters are working out.

Bharring wrote:
It's like saying if Tac Marines became be 11ppm, should CSM prices change?

Basically the same unit in a different book.

Well, yeah. They are the same unit.

Martel732 wrote:
Ask marines how well expensive aura characters are working out.

They cause nerfs to everybody if the aura is too strong (see: Guilliman). If it's too weak, we ignore the aura and slap a jet pack and a hammer on the unit to fly it into something like a human missile (see: Smash Captains).

Necrons:

Clarify the mess that is tomb world deployment

Make the heavier Tesla variants S8/-1 or S8/D2

Give flayed ones back 4A

Give monolith T9 or other defensive measures (inv or QS)

Take away killing flyers that can't keep on the table or give them more pivots

That's very Orky when you think about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:
Necrons:

Clarify the mess that is tomb world deployment

Make the heavier Tesla variants S8/-1 or S8/D2

Give flayed ones back 4A

Give monolith T9 or other defensive measures (inv or QS)

Take away killing flyers that can't keep on the table or give them more pivots

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Give Necrons back their 3+ save!

Oh my GAWWWWD STAHP WITH THE GUARD WHINING AND COMPLAINING.

Literally every thread on here at some point gets hijacked by butthurt math nerds complaining that their plastic toys can't do the same things as another's plastic toys. NOT EVERY THREAD needs to be about Guard v. Cultists/Nids/GSC/Rangers/whatever.

We get it. You are SUPER butthurt over Guard and CP. But obviously that is never changing, seeing as how we've gone two years of "changes/fixes/updates/nerfs/buffs" and none of them have addressed the cost of guard or the CP they generate.

Bharring wrote:
Wishlist of mine:
IG, IK, SM, and AdMech non-special-characters may replace the IoM keyword with Chaos.

With a few other stipulations, of course.

Pure wishlisting, though.

Just so I'm clear, here - you want Chaos to have CSM, DG, 1kSons, RenKnights & Daemons - as well as access to everything in the IG, IK, SM (just core SM, or all Imperial SM?) and AdMech book bar named characters?

...not just a no, but feth that noise.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Haven't had the displeasure of facing GSC yet to judge how they're balanced or not, but the issue with GSC as an outsider seams to be less in the model's points and more in the insane strategum stacking they can pull along with some undercosted weapons.

For everything you lot complain about with regards to Infantry Squads? Neophytes and Brood Brothers are the same damn unit as the Infantry Squads.

Oh, and with the 'Bodyguard' ability native and a point higher LD.

Yeah, they just...don't get the ability to double their firepower coming off of a 30pt hq model.

You want a buff HQ for your gsc? You start at 65pts, and there's exactly one model in the whole game that does anything to boost ranged firepower.

How many buffs are there in the guard codex?

With two specials and two heavies they don't really need a CC.

55 points gets you 18 S3 shots for IS.
Or for 50+4+2 you get 6 S4, 4 S4 autohit, and 6 S3.

IS
18 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 1 MEQ
18 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 3 GEQ

NEO
(6 * .5 * .5 * .333) + (4 * .5 * .333) + (6 * .5 * .333 * .333) = 1.5 MEQ
(6 * .5 * .666 * .666) + (4 * .666 * .666) + (6 * .5 * .666 * .666) = 4.4 GEQ

Move and shoot is not a problem with Cog. They also have +1LD, a 6++, and deepstrike/ambush. They can be given a 6+++ and +1 to hit.

And you can essentially cult reinforce a big blob into combat.

They're not better than IS, but let's not downplay their abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Haven't had the displeasure of facing GSC yet to judge how they're balanced or not, but the issue with GSC as an outsider seams to be less in the model's points and more in the insane strategum stacking they can pull along with some undercosted weapons.

For everything you lot complain about with regards to Infantry Squads? Neophytes and Brood Brothers are the same damn unit as the Infantry Squads.

Oh, and with the 'Bodyguard' ability native and a point higher LD.

Yeah, they just...don't get the ability to double their firepower coming off of a 30pt hq model.

You want a buff HQ for your gsc? You start at 65pts, and there's exactly one model in the whole game that does anything to boost ranged firepower.

How many buffs are there in the guard codex?

With two specials and two heavies they don't really need a CC.

55 points gets you 18 S3 shots for IS.
Or for 50+4+2 you get 6 S4, 4 S4 autohit, and 6 S3.

IS
18 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 1 MEQ
18 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 3 GEQ

NEO
(6 * .5 * .5 * .333) + (4 * .5 * .333) + (6 * .5 * .333 * .333) = 1.5 MEQ
(6 * .5 * .666 * .666) + (4 * .666 * .666) + (6 * .5 * .666 * .666) = 4.4 GEQ

Move and shoot is not a problem with Cog. They also have +1LD, a 6++, and deepstrike/ambush. They can be given a 6+++ and +1 to hit.

And you can essentially cult reinforce a big blob into combat.

They're not better than IS, but let's not downplay their abilities.

I'm not? The entire point of my post was to point out how they are pretty much the same in terms of effectiveness, so it makes the most sense for both to be 5ppm.

I'm also a bit confused by your math here.

55 points for IS...so you're doing 1IS and 1/2 of a company commander? Then would that not be 37 S3 shots with FRSFRF?

and you're saying the neophytes here are at with 2 heavy stubbers and a web pistol, and you're granting them a subfaction trait because we're talking about Bladed Cog as well as an aura from a 75pt model, but I'm not seeing you including a subfaction trait for the company commander, and you're also not including any of the cost of the jackal alphus in their ability.

Also, many people are always quick to point out "but the company commander only buffs 2 units! The Jackal buffs any number of units because it's got an aura!" but they ignore the extra limitations on the alphus that does not exist on the CC.

The Alphus is limited to one per detachment, and if you're mixing detachments (say, because you want to pretend every GSC army has access to CTFAE charge bonuses and vect but you also want to pretend every bike squad is going to have the Rusted Claw stratagem and every Neophyte squad is going to have bladed cog) then her buff can only affect a fraction of your army. Also, her buff selects a single enemy unit to grant the hit bonus against, which works fine if your whole army is trying to shoot one single unit. But if you're up against something crazy that you never see in competitive play like six different infantry squads, the second you shoot one squad to death, your buff goes away.

Also if you want to get REAL technical, company commanders actually have faster movement than Jackal Alphus' if you use one of their orders on Move Move Move . Yes, she's got herself a sniper rifle that is 1/2 as effective as that most auto-include of space marine special characters, Sergeant Telion, and we all know what a terror of competitive play he's been, so something 1/2 as effective...wow, that's definitely something to be factoring in!

Just want to point that out in case anyone has forgotten that imperial guard basic infantry can all just decide to move faster than cars, jet packs, and motorcycles if they want to.

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not? The entire point of my post was to point out how they are pretty much the same in terms of effectiveness, so it makes the most sense for both to be 5ppm.

I'm also a bit confused by your math here.

55 points for IS...so you're doing 1IS and 1/2 of a company commander? Then would that not be 37 S3 shots with FRSFRF?

and you're saying the neophytes here are at with 2 heavy stubbers and a web pistol, and you're granting them a subfaction trait because we're talking about Bladed Cog as well as an aura from a 75pt model, but I'm not seeing you including a subfaction trait for the company commander, and you're also not including any of the cost of the jackal alphus in their ability.

Also, many people are always quick to point out "but the company commander only buffs 2 units! The Jackal buffs any number of units because it's got an aura!" but they ignore the extra limitations on the alphus that does not exist on the CC.

The Alphus is limited to one per detachment, and if you're mixing detachments (say, because you want to pretend every GSC army has access to CTFAE charge bonuses and vect but you also want to pretend every bike squad is going to have the Rusted Claw stratagem and every Neophyte squad is going to have bladed cog) then her buff can only affect a fraction of your army. Also, her buff selects a single enemy unit to grant the hit bonus against, which works fine if your whole army is trying to shoot one single unit. But if you're up against something crazy that you never see in competitive play like six different infantry squads, the second you shoot one squad to death, your buff goes away.

Also if you want to get REAL technical, company commanders actually have faster movement than Jackal Alphus' if you use one of their orders on Move Move Move . Yes, she's got herself a sniper rifle that is 1/2 as effective as that most auto-include of space marine special characters, Sergeant Telion, and we all know what a terror of competitive play he's been, so something 1/2 as effective...wow, that's definitely something to be factoring in!

Just want to point that out in case anyone has forgotten that imperial guard basic infantry can all just decide to move faster than cars, jet packs, and motorcycles if they want to.

Oh - I'm not attacking you or anything. I just wanted to temper language.

Yes - half a CC. 37 at 12", but they're not usually around for that. Cadians keep them still. Catachans MMM like jerks. MMM is great - better than deepstrike is some regards, but DS is pretty flexible, too.

The math is sans Jackal, because I'm not entirely certain she would be used to buff shooting against something they want to shoot unless they're carrying mini-mining lasers. The Jackal isn't a stellar sniper, but Sanctus and her can knock out some CCs reasonably well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

To be fair, their abilities once they're in combat aren't that bad. Sure they die very easily, but they do get re-rolls to wound which makes them effective vs infantry. The problem is more around how they die quickly and have zero synergies within the codex. It's kind of a problem with Necrons as a whole though, not specifically flayed ones.

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

Sounds like rust stalkers. Just fishing for 6s

Darsath wrote:

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

To be fair, their abilities once they're in combat aren't that bad. Sure they die very easily, but they do get re-rolls to wound which makes them effective vs infantry. The problem is more around how they die quickly and have zero synergies within the codex. It's kind of a problem with Necrons as a whole though, not specifically flayed ones.

The thing is, I'm kind of fine with them dying easily. I just want to be able to field a squad 20 for under 250 points and have them throw out a stupid amount of attacks.

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

You kinda forgot the whole they reroll to wound against everything but whatever. That alone makes them better than Scarabs, Wraiths, Praetorians, AND Lychguard vs quite a variety of targets.

Like I said, the issue is actually getting to combat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

You kinda forgot the whole they reroll to wound against everything but whatever. That alone makes them better than Scarabs, Wraiths, Praetorians, AND Lychguard vs quite a variety of targets.

Like I said, the issue is actually getting to combat.

You don't need to tell me that Flayed Ones can do work against certain enemies (although better against a variety of targets is a stretch). You do need to justify that they are worth 17ppm.

Scarabs and Wraiths are both also good against certain enemies. The difference is, they are actually worth their points.

 Dysartes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wishlist of mine:
IG, IK, SM, and AdMech non-special-characters may replace the IoM keyword with Chaos.

With a few other stipulations, of course.

Pure wishlisting, though.

Just so I'm clear, here - you want Chaos to have CSM, DG, 1kSons, RenKnights & Daemons - as well as access to everything in the IG, IK, SM (just core SM, or all Imperial SM?) and AdMech book bar named characters?

...not just a no, but feth that noise.

We should just get Renegade Guard, Renegade Knight, and Dark Mechanicus Codices.

All you need to do to fix knights is when taking them in an Aux Super Heavy detachment i.e. only 1 knight, is make it so that this can only be a freeblade, i.e. no House Raven etc. available. this would limit some of the stratagems that super-buff the knights...

Personally, I'd like for renegades to be a playable faction.

As most people are doubtlessly aware, renegades in general are horribly overcosted. Their GEQ troops cost as much as guardsmen for a worse save, worse BS and WS, unreliable (but lower on average) leadership, and pay Guardsmen prices for weapons they shoot far less effectively. Those troops also don't get orders, or chapter tactics, or anything else worth noting. Their cultists are worse than the CSM cultists, for the same points. Their heavy weapons teams pay the same points cost as guard teams for their guns.. but have all the same issues as the standard GEQ troops.

Lastly, their rules don't even function. Entries refer to weapons lists which don't exist (Enforcers can choose from a non-existent pistol list..), weapons their entry cannot take, and plenty of other problems.

Dropping their Militia cost by 1-2 PPM, making functional weapon lists, and reducing the cost for most of their weapons would make them a functional force. They'd still be objectively worse than almost all armies due to a lack of chapter tactics & stratagems, but they'd at least be playable in a literal sense and semi-reasonably costed.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Personally, I'd like for renegades to be a playable faction.

As most people are doubtlessly aware, renegades in general are horribly overcosted. Their GEQ troops cost as much as guardsmen for a worse save, worse BS and WS, unreliable (but lower on average) leadership, and. Those troops also don't get orders, or chapter tactics, or anything else worth noting. Their cultists are worse than the CSM cultists, for the same points. Their heavy weapons teams pay the same points cost as guard teams for their guns.. but have all the same issues as the standard GEQ troops.

Lastly, their rules don't even function. Entries refer to weapons lists which don't exist (Enforcers can choose from a non-existent pistol list..), weapons their entry cannot take, and plenty of other problems.

Dropping their Militia cost by 1-2 PPM, making functional weapon lists, and reducing the cost for most of their weapons would make them a functional force. They'd still be objectively worse than almost all armies due to a lack of chapter tactics & stratagems, but they'd at least be playable in a literal sense and semi-reasonably costed.

Summed up pretty well, same can be applied to Corsairs aswell.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
All you need to do to fix knights is when taking them in an Aux Super Heavy detachment i.e. only 1 knight, is make it so that this can only be a freeblade, i.e. no House Raven etc. available. this would limit some of the stratagems that super-buff the knights...

Or make it so that Super Heavy Aux doesn't unlock stratagems. If you want to rotate dem onion shields you gotta commit to 3 knights.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 The Forgemaster wrote:
All you need to do to fix knights is when taking them in an Aux Super Heavy detachment i.e. only 1 knight, is make it so that this can only be a freeblade, i.e. no House Raven etc. available. this would limit some of the stratagems that super-buff the knights...

Or make it so that Super Heavy Aux doesn't unlock stratagems. If you want to rotate dem onion shields you gotta commit to 3 knights.

This would make sense. you can still run a knight w L32, just not as appealing if you also have to include 2 more knights if you want strats. would limit cheesefest at least.

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Flayed Ones are already more killy vs several targets for the price. The issue is that they can't reach combat quickly.

Hardly.

WS3+ S4 T4 A3 Sv4+ AP0... this is not a very killy statline and is worth 12ppm at most, and only that high because they can deep strike.

At their current cost they require a bump. Like getting the 4th attack back and better morale debuffs

You kinda forgot the whole they reroll to wound against everything but whatever. That alone makes them better than Scarabs, Wraiths, Praetorians, AND Lychguard vs quite a variety of targets.

Like I said, the issue is actually getting to combat.

You don't need to tell me that Flayed Ones can do work against certain enemies (although better against a variety of targets is a stretch). You do need to justify that they are worth 17ppm.

Scarabs and Wraiths are both also good against certain enemies. The difference is, they are actually worth their points.

Yeah this is just it.

They're not killy enough to be that squishy for their points. 10 FO kill around 12 GEQ. So the 12 other GEQs waiting behind those first 12 just demolish them the next turn.

For a unit that regularly won't make their deep strike charges, it would be nice if they were cheaper, so you could throw them around more with less care, or better, so you could justify building up a more pricey delivery system.

In that sense, arguably just adding a single attack doesn't really make that much of a difference. But they were what.. 13 points in 7th? Still AP5 (nullifying 5+ saves) when AP was less important, and had 4 attacks and the same movement statistic as any other infantry. They certainly took a blow with the price hike and other changes transitioning into 8th.

Giving them +1A and AP-1 and suddenly the 10 FO kill 20 ork boys or 20 guardsmen or 10 space marines or 3 terminators. Now the enemy can't just sit back and deal with the ones that make their charge in an orderly fashion. He will have his flank molested if there are FO in play and need to adapt to the situation. Something you'd expect 2x10 FO for 340 pt should accomplish in the first place.