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 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but scions are elite units of the Imperium, they're better than basic troops. The fact that they occupy a troops slot doesn't change that fact. They should have been an Elites choice and maybe that change needs to happen.

Hey remember how those "elite units of the Imperium" were able to be fielded as a Platoon in the last Guard book but not in their dedicated, standalone book?

It doesn't change the way I feel the CP detachment bonus should change. Perhaps there are some armies that need an addendum that could be addressed in a WD (Index Scion Strikeforce for example) that would give them an opportunity to field lone armies without too much of a hamstring. As it stands, I don't see why you should be rewarded with +10CP by bringing 2 battalions when it's just a few Troops choices. Not when other armies that are just as thematic but can barely bring +2CP.

And I don't see why you should be rewarded for taking bits from outside of your faction yet here we continually are. And we still have people who think the problem isn't that you can take a "battery" of random stuff but rather that an army which traditionally has had cheap troops is the issue.

Change Scions to Elite choices, I don't care, the system needs change. Or you could just take Astra Militarum options in your list to make up for those slots. Not much different to me hearing how I should just take scouts in my Ravenwing force.

If you take Scouts, does it remove your Ravenwing bonus? Serious question as I haven't followed Dark Angels.

Because taking non-Scions in a Scion force removes their Regimental trait.

I still stand by a battalion requiring one each of the elites, fast and heavy options.

And I still stand by giving themed armies an actual bonus.

Your Ravenwing should be getting bonus CP or reduced CP costs for running an Outrider Detachment.

Look at how much discussion has been generated by a complicated suggestion to fix CP, and how unintended consequences harm factions that can ill afford it while leaving the main culprits unaddressed.

Seems everyone is eager for a major splash when all that's needed is a small change to the usual suspects. Turns out, addressing the Castellan directly won't have much impact on Scions or GK and won't require entire codexes to be rewritten.

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but scions are elite units of the Imperium, they're better than basic troops. The fact that they occupy a troops slot doesn't change that fact. They should have been an Elites choice and maybe that change needs to happen.

It doesn't change the way I feel the CP detachment bonus should change. Perhaps there are some armies that need an addendum that could be addressed in a WD (Index Scion Strikeforce for example) that would give them an opportunity to field lone armies without too much of a hamstring. As it stands, I don't see why you should be rewarded with +10CP by bringing 2 battalions when it's just a few Troops choices. Not when other armies that are just as thematic but can barely bring +2CP.
Change Scions to Elite choices, I don't care, the system needs change. Or you could just take Astra Militarum options in your list to make up for those slots. Not much different to me hearing how I should just take scouts in my Ravenwing force.

I still stand by a battalion requiring one each of the elites, fast and heavy options.

Sorry, but the SOB are just the elite guardians of the Imperium. They should just be an elite option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it’s troops, elites, transports, and flyers. Plus

Um, ACTUALLY, space marines are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Well HOLD ON, Primaris marines are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Uh, EXCUSE ME, but Grey Knights are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Oh, I'M SORRY, but Custodes are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Checkmate, Atheists.

Proof that the rules-writers hate CWE. Their elite Guardians have the same rules as their non-elite Guardians - just some stratagem you can use. Otherwise, they're as durable as Guardsmen but twice the points.

When will GW's anti-Eldar bias end?

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Any fix needs to be simple, not convoluted and complicated. Inevitably, someone somewhere will be butt-hurt as it will change their specific army, but if it improves the overall gameplay then it's worth it.
The detachment system currently doesn't work well. It over rewards minimum battalions and cripples specialist, elite forces with minimun to no CP. I still adhere to my point that a battalion should have to have support elements, it can't simply be just 2 HQ and 3 troops. That's barely more than a patrol and yet it yields +5CP. To gain that bonus, you should have to add some real meat to the detachment in support elements. Until that happens, the system is broken.If this applies to a Brigade, how are some of those similar requirements left out for a Battalion? And the truth of the matter is that not all armies can and should be able to field battalions. You just have to find a way to reward more CPs for the other options and I agree with Galef that the base Battle Forged points should be 5, not 3. This would really help the smaller, elite armies (that already suffer in the game) make up some CP without having to ally in a cheap, fake battalion.
And if this seems so ridiculous, then knights need to be stripped of there huge CP bonuses down to 0 for an Auxiliary, and +3CP when you bring at least 3 large knights. Currently, the fact that they get such hugfe CP incentives when other small elite armies get nothing is a slap in the face.

I think it is one of the universal inconvenient truths of the modern era that "simpler does not equal better" when it comes to solutions.

You are calling out the current problem of

"Armies with cheap troops and HQs are too easily able to use cheap battalions to feed CP to elite souped allies, while elite armies' battalions cost more because the minimum cost of their HQs and Troops is higher."

and advocating a solution of

"Require everyone to take 1 Fast, 1 Elite, and 1 Heavy Support to make a Battalion."

Do you not see how this exacerbates, rather than solves, the problem? A current minimum Guard battalion is 180pts. A current minimum Marine battalion is somewhere in the realm of 245 I think?

This is enough to make marine battalions less efficient in competititve play.

You are now advocating to make that guard battalion around 300 points, and that marine battalion upwards of 550. in other words, widening the gap, and making battalions from the "we've got cheap stuff" armies MORE vital to the function of competitive armies.
.

I'm not seeing the problem you are suggesting. Do you think marine armies are taking battalions for their awesome Troop choices? No.

As a Dark Angel player, if I want to run a battalion, i shouldn't expect a couple of JP captains/librarians and 3x5 scouts make me good to go. I should add a unit of Deathwing Knights, maybe a darkshroud and perhaps a predator to make this a cohesive force. Marine armies are taking Troops as tax to get access to the better stuff. Making them get the better stuff in the first place is not a problem.
Avoiding the Loyal 32 etc is a much better solution.

GW has the system ass-backwards IMHO. The detachments in Vigilus looked to be a step in the right direction (a wraith host, a RW attack squadron, etc), but instead of them giving you more CP to be fluffy, they charged you an additional CP, lol. No thanks! So my Ravenwing Strike force still has 3x5 scouts just so I can use the CPs I need for this to work. Oops.

The system is currently broken and I don't think GW has any idea how to fix it.

Lemondish wrote:
Look at how much discussion has been generated by a complicated suggestion to fix CP, and how unintended consequences harm factions that can ill afford it while leaving the main culprits unaddressed.

Seems everyone is eager for a major splash when all that's needed is a small change to the usual suspects. Turns out, addressing the Castellan directly won't have much impact on Scions or GK and won't require entire codexes to be rewritten.

Yeah because of course it the Castellen thats the issue, lets see the top imperial lists for the last year has been
Guard + Custard creams, Guard plus Custards plus smash captiains, Guard plus Smash captain plus Castellen, Guard plus Custards plus Castellen, Guard plus Castellen, Guard plus Custards, Guard plus Crusader.

You know what's not been smashing tournament, Custards plus Castellen or Smash Captain & friends plus Castellen, I wounder why?

In an ideal world, I would have it as thus...

Change the Battle Forged to 5CP base.
Have a Battalion require 1 elite, fast, heavy and be +3CP
Brigade as is but yields +9CP.

Create specialist detachments that yield additional CPs if they follow the theme of the intended army. Yes, this would be quite an undertaking, but it would begin to reward thematic armies. This would include your scions, ravenwing, Deathwing, Spirithosts, Wild Rider jetbikes, etc, etc.

The issue is that CPs are not generated fairly across the board and thus people look for loop holes to increase their number. The Loyal 32 is a perfect example of course. Why a trio of knights, the Loyal 32 and a minimum Battalion of BAs yields 19CP is beyond silly. Yet I bring a thematic Ravenwing detachment with 3 Outrider detachments, and get 6CP, and must spend 1CP for each one if I wish it to be a specialist Vigilus detachment is just bad rules writing.
I use Ravenwing as an example as it is one i am more familiar with.

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Any fix needs to be simple, not convoluted and complicated. Inevitably, someone somewhere will be butt-hurt as it will change their specific army, but if it improves the overall gameplay then it's worth it.
The detachment system currently doesn't work well. It over rewards minimum battalions and cripples specialist, elite forces with minimun to no CP. I still adhere to my point that a battalion should have to have support elements, it can't simply be just 2 HQ and 3 troops. That's barely more than a patrol and yet it yields +5CP. To gain that bonus, you should have to add some real meat to the detachment in support elements. Until that happens, the system is broken.If this applies to a Brigade, how are some of those similar requirements left out for a Battalion? And the truth of the matter is that not all armies can and should be able to field battalions. You just have to find a way to reward more CPs for the other options and I agree with Galef that the base Battle Forged points should be 5, not 3. This would really help the smaller, elite armies (that already suffer in the game) make up some CP without having to ally in a cheap, fake battalion.
And if this seems so ridiculous, then knights need to be stripped of there huge CP bonuses down to 0 for an Auxiliary, and +3CP when you bring at least 3 large knights. Currently, the fact that they get such hugfe CP incentives when other small elite armies get nothing is a slap in the face.

I think it is one of the universal inconvenient truths of the modern era that "simpler does not equal better" when it comes to solutions.

You are calling out the current problem of

"Armies with cheap troops and HQs are too easily able to use cheap battalions to feed CP to elite souped allies, while elite armies' battalions cost more because the minimum cost of their HQs and Troops is higher."

and advocating a solution of

"Require everyone to take 1 Fast, 1 Elite, and 1 Heavy Support to make a Battalion."

Do you not see how this exacerbates, rather than solves, the problem? A current minimum Guard battalion is 180pts. A current minimum Marine battalion is somewhere in the realm of 245 I think?

This is enough to make marine battalions less efficient in competititve play.

You are now advocating to make that guard battalion around 300 points, and that marine battalion upwards of 550. in other words, widening the gap, and making battalions from the "we've got cheap stuff" armies MORE vital to the function of competitive armies.
.

I'm not seeing the problem you are suggesting. Do you think marine armies are taking battalions for their awesome Troop choices? No.

As a Dark Angel player, if I want to run a battalion, i shouldn't expect a couple of JP captains/librarians and 3x5 scouts make me good to go. I should add a unit of Deathwing Knights, maybe a darkshroud and perhaps a predator to make this a cohesive force. Marine armies are taking Troops as tax to get access to the better stuff. Making them get the better stuff in the first place is not a problem.
Avoiding the Loyal 32 etc is a much better solution.

GW has the system ass-backwards IMHO. The detachments in Vigilus looked to be a step in the right direction (a wraith host, a RW attack squadron, etc), but instead of them giving you more CP to be fluffy, they charged you an additional CP, lol. No thanks! So my Ravenwing Strike force still has 3x5 scouts just so I can use the CPs I need for this to work. Oops.

The system is currently broken and I don't think GW has any idea how to fix it.

The hilariously broken thing is 3 msu scout units and the 1 HQ to turn a marine specialist detachments into a battalion cost 30 more points than the 32 douche bags.

the_scotsman wrote:
It's like the "let's make detachments with your warlord's faction double the CP" suggestion - threads like this make me honestly pretty appreciative that we don't make writing the rules for 40k into some sort of crowdsourced living ruleset.

Amen.

 bullyboy wrote:
In an ideal world, I would have it as thus...

Change the Battle Forged to 5CP base.
Have a Battalion require 1 elite, fast, heavy and be +3CP
Brigade as is but yields +9CP.

Create specialist detachments that yield additional CPs if they follow the theme of the intended army. Yes, this would be quite an undertaking, but it would begin to reward thematic armies. This would include your scions, ravenwing, Deathwing, Spirithosts, Wild Rider jetbikes, etc, etc.

The issue is that CPs are not generated fairly across the board and thus people look for loop holes to increase their number. The Loyal 32 is a perfect example of course. Why a trio of knights, the Loyal 32 and a minimum Battalion of BAs yields 19CP is beyond silly. Yet I bring a thematic Ravenwing detachment with 3 Outrider detachments, and get 6CP, and must spend 1CP for each one if I wish it to be a specialist Vigilus detachment is just bad rules writing.
I use Ravenwing as an example as it is one i am more familiar with.

All this does is turn the game back into a 7th edition formation roulette, with hordes getting a Get Out Of Jail Free card. If barebones battalions are the issue, just punish the barebones nature of them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It's like the "let's make detachments with your warlord's faction double the CP" suggestion - threads like this make me honestly pretty appreciative that we don't make writing the rules for 40k into some sort of crowdsourced living ruleset.

Amen.

To be fair, GW is almost as bad....

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It's like the "let's make detachments with your warlord's faction double the CP" suggestion - threads like this make me honestly pretty appreciative that we don't make writing the rules for 40k into some sort of crowdsourced living ruleset.

Amen.

Yeah I always forget that Knights have super special snowflake abilities that circumvent all my reasonably simple solutions to "fix" CP abuse.
Maybe if we "fix" Knights to work a little more like everyone else we can finally get some problems fixed.

Make Battalions 3CPs, REMOVE Brigades completely (because only Guard seem to get any use out of them and it effs up my solution)
Now you can give detachments sharing multiple Keywords with the WL double CPs.
Knights now need a bit of an adjustment to allow them to select a single Questorus or Dominus class Knight as the WL. CPs can be spend for relics.

Easy fix. Soup and Monofaction lists are on even footing now. Monofactions should tend to get more CPs (because they SHOULD), yet Soup lists will still have the advantage being able to cover each factions deficiencies

-

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It's like the "let's make detachments with your warlord's faction double the CP" suggestion - threads like this make me honestly pretty appreciative that we don't make writing the rules for 40k into some sort of crowdsourced living ruleset.

Amen.

To be fair, GW is almost as bad....

Oh for sure. I just love that when GW comes out with a really super simple solution like, oh, I don't know, slapping battalions up to 5CP and Brigades up to 12CP for no reason, and going "And now space marine armies will have 8-9CP to play with, PROBLEM SOLVED!" people instantaneously recognize that this is a hilariously over-simplistic solution and they're leaving out that they just handed even MORE CP to the ultra-cheap horde factions and made tack-on detachments even more mandatory.

but then they turn around and go "I HAVE THE REAL SOLUTION! We need to give EVEN MORE cp to factions that are the same as your warlord! Now surely marines and guard will be...on the same...level..."

"no wait I have an even better idea, let's add extra slot requirements to battalions, that will solve the issue of the factions with cheap units...having a huge...advantage?"

I don't get what makes it so difficult to grasp.

There exists an imbalance.

Buffing everyone equally, or nerfing everyone equally, will NEVER resolve that imbalance, unless you go to some ludicrous extreme like "100 COMMAND POINTS FOR A BATTALION" in which case everyone would just be tabled turn 2 before either player runs out of command points, or "no command points for any detachment!"

I'll complain about draconian solutions all day long because I think over-nerfing will just reinforce the army imbalance, but man...BCB's thing was way better than these solutions at least.

In a game where a viable army could be 4 models (Knights) or 200 models (Orks) having CP attached to Detachments is doomed to failure.

Moving the CP to something that is going to be more consistent, like the point value of the game, is going to be a much better long term fix.

You actually have to identify the problem before you can fix it, that's pretty obvious.

What's the problem?

To many, it seems that accessing cheap detachments that yield high CPs to activate your power units with those CP is the problem. Am I missing something?

If that's the case, the first step is to make it so that those cheap add-ons don't offer enough bonus to make the effort worthwhile.

In my suggestion, requiring a Guard battalion to add an elites, fast and heavy slot before giving those knights just 3 extra CP would probably not be worth it. The player may then just look at taking a better guard army overall to supplement his knights. I see no issue with this.

The Scotsmen keeps bringing up marines as if they're an issue with the additional battalion tax. I disagree. If you're playing marines, you're taking more than just troops. If not, then you're doing it to gain CP and fuel smash captains etc. This goes back to the initial problem, harvesting detachments for CPs. Take this incentive away.

Also, adjust the knight CP bonus to be less obnoxious.

What are the real CP abusers out there? Cheap battalions that yield +5CP seem to be the only problem. At least with a Brigade people are investing in the army completely. You change Battalions to be more of a complete army choice and lower the CPs it generates, we now get some semblance of normalcy.

I have yet to see a valid argument that negates this proposal. Yes, some armies that can now run battalions may have a harder time doing so. OK, in that case, they should look at other detachment options. If there are still armies that struggle to field a force with this change then a small change to keywords etc can adjust it on a case by case basis.

As it stands, the number one goal (IMHO) to initiate some form of balance is to make the cheap CP batteries less appealing.

How does your suggestion in any way solve the issue of Guard being a disproportionately cheap and easy source of CP for Knights?

Everyone loves to pick on guard, but honestly there is more than just guard slipping by the troops tax.

Would it break the game to make Company Commanders 85pts? To elevate him closer to the other HQ's? I mean, even at 95pts he's still worth it.

I'd be happy with Bully's suggestion though, Guard needs to see some form of alteration to how they generate CP. But then so do Orks, Nids, Cultists, and to a lesser extent Firewarriors.

It will never end. Let's say tomorrow FAQ drops, Guard squads are 15pts per model and their min BN is an elite and a Fast attack. 450pts per(out of my butt). Then VERY NEXT DAY people would light up these forums about how "It's too easy for Nids to make BNs". Or "Orks are dominating the Meta with their cheap troops" or "I'm drowning in firewarriors, NERFFFFFFFF".

It never ends. We all agree Guard needs a fix, but to act like that balances the game, I dunno. The only way to flat out balance is if everyone has the same stats, and then we'd bitch about how your models are unfairly giving you LOS.....

Wasn't a dig at Guard, but rather the idea that going from a 180pt -> 249pt CP battery was in any way significant

Reemule wrote:
In a game where a viable army could be 4 models (Knights) or 200 models (Orks) having CP attached to Detachments is doomed to failure.

Moving the CP to something that is going to be more consistent, like the point value of the game, is going to be a much better long term fix.

Overall I agree that as it stands, moving CPs to points level is probably better than detachment.

However, it is worth considering that some Factions have really good strats due to being cheaper than others or their units being better. Eldar, for example have some great and cheap strats, but at the same time, not too easy of a way to get a cheap Battalion. So Eldar tend to have less CPs because of this, but get more out of their Strats.
If we give everyone the same number of CPs, Eldar get a significant boost over other factions.

Ideally, a combined approach would be better. Make the bulk of CPs come from being Battle Forged (say 3CPs per 500pts) and most detachments giving no CP, save maybe Battalions (only 3) and Brigaded (preferably less than 9).
Now most armies get roughly the saem number, but armies that can field cheaper Troops don't suffer as much.

Now you fix Guardsman to be 5ppm and Marines/CSM to 11ppm and the balance is much closer to better.

-

 bullyboy wrote:
You actually have to identify the problem before you can fix it, that's pretty obvious.

What's the problem?

To many, it seems that accessing cheap detachments that yield high CPs to activate your power units with those CP is the problem. Am I missing something?

If that's the case, the first step is to make it so that those cheap add-ons don't offer enough bonus to make the effort worthwhile.

In my suggestion, requiring a Guard battalion to add an elites, fast and heavy slot before giving those knights just 3 extra CP would probably not be worth it. The player may then just look at taking a better guard army overall to supplement his knights. I see no issue with this.

The Scotsmen keeps bringing up marines as if they're an issue with the additional battalion tax. I disagree. If you're playing marines, you're taking more than just troops. If not, then you're doing it to gain CP and fuel smash captains etc. This goes back to the initial problem, harvesting detachments for CPs. Take this incentive away.

Also, adjust the knight CP bonus to be less obnoxious.

What are the real CP abusers out there? Cheap battalions that yield +5CP seem to be the only problem. At least with a Brigade people are investing in the army completely. You change Battalions to be more of a complete army choice and lower the CPs it generates, we now get some semblance of normalcy.

I have yet to see a valid argument that negates this proposal. Yes, some armies that can now run battalions may have a harder time doing so. OK, in that case, they should look at other detachment options. If there are still armies that struggle to field a force with this change then a small change to keywords etc can adjust it on a case by case basis.

As it stands, the number one goal (IMHO) to initiate some form of balance is to make the cheap CP batteries less appealing.

I think your fix just shifts the problem, while also hurting some forces that have a very hard time getting to the basic battalion. I feel what your proposing was really attempted and failed in the nerfing of the Patrol detachment.

Seriously if they nerfed battalions like that, I'd most likely start looking at running a stronghold attacker detachment when i could, or the defender. And then after another year cycle and it gets nerfed, I'll be on to something else.

As long as the requirement is going to be something about where if you bring X things and get X reward the race is always going to be towards what combo gives me the reward with the least cost. Change it so your reward is starting with the best behavior you want, and then penalize when they move from the desired position.

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh for sure. I just love that when GW comes out with a really super simple solution like, oh, I don't know, slapping battalions up to 5CP and Brigades up to 12CP for no reason, and going "And now space marine armies will have 8-9CP to play with, PROBLEM SOLVED!" people instantaneously recognize that this is a hilariously over-simplistic solution and they're leaving out that they just handed even MORE CP to the ultra-cheap horde factions and made tack-on detachments even more mandatory.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Those changes occurred before the Castellan was around. It WAS a good change, because IG can't really use all that CP and elite armies COULD. Now it has become frankenstein with knights showing off their toys. This doesn't mean GW made a bad decision in the moment.

 Galef wrote:

Reemule wrote:
In a game where a viable army could be 4 models (Knights) or 200 models (Orks) having CP attached to Detachments is doomed to failure.

Moving the CP to something that is going to be more consistent, like the point value of the game, is going to be a much better long term fix.

Overall I agree that as it stands, moving CPs to points level is probably better than detachment.

However, it is worth considering that some Factions have really good strats due to being cheaper than others or their units being better. Eldar, for example have some great and cheap strats, but at the same time, not too easy of a way to get a cheap Battalion. So Eldar tend to have less CPs because of this, but get more out of their Strats.
If we give everyone the same number of CPs, Eldar get a significant boost over other factions.

Ideally, a combined approach would be better. Make the bulk of CPs come from being Battle Forged (say 3CPs per 500pts) and most detachments giving no CP, save maybe Battalions (only 3) and Brigaded (preferably less than 9).
Now most armies get roughly the saem number, but armies that can field cheaper Troops don't suffer as much.

Now you fix Guardsman to be 5ppm and Marines/CSM to 11ppm and the balance is much closer to better.

-

Once you have a stable CP system, you can revamp Stratagems to make sense.

Honest thought experiment: what other things could you attach cp to other than unit size, that would effectively be more balanced than the current situation? Damage done? Enemy units killed? Friendly forces alive at the end of turn?

That would be interesting. You could receive multiple bonuses if you kill X units, and only Y units were lost in the turn.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That would be interesting. You could receive multiple bonuses if you kill X units, and only Y units were lost in the turn.

That just further rewards going first with overwhelming fire power.

I'm getting flashbacks to my last game of Maelstrom of War.

The quickest and laziest change I can think of is "If you have less than 500pts in a Battalion it doesn't grant any CP", with a more nuanced approach (X00pts=XCP, up to 5) if people feel like the bookkeeping.

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
Wasn't a dig at Guard, but rather the idea that going from a 180pt -> 249pt CP battery was in any way significant

Its absolutely significant if those additional requirements only yield 3CP instead of 5CP.

To answer your earlier question, lets take the old boogeyman from last year..Castellan, guard batt, BA Batt. Currently that yields 3CP base +3CP Castellan and +5CP ea for the battalions for a total of 16 CP.
In my suggestion it would yield 5CP base + 0 for Castellan, +6CP for both battalions for total of 11CP plus the two battalions would need more investment.
So what am I missing?

 bullyboy wrote:
So what am I missing?

The fact that (unless I missed something, long thread we got here) everyone's Battalions only grant +3CP.

Honestly I think faction specific command points would go to fixing this, not perfect but certainly better than we have now.

Something like only allowing guard to use the command points it produces, floating command points from certain characters like guilliman, Azrael, creed etc. Can be used for any part of the army, so creed would let marines use his command points (not even sure he generates them but just spit balling).

Another alternative is to bring back strategy ratings, so marines could have a strat rating of 10 and that is how many points they get for being a hard hitting strike force, guard would have 8 but get more for having certain characters or whatever.

There are plenty of ways of solving this problem, it's just making sure they do actually fix it.

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So what am I missing?

The fact that (unless I missed something, long thread we got here) everyone's Battalions only grant +3CP.

Problem?

Bharring wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but scions are elite units of the Imperium, they're better than basic troops. The fact that they occupy a troops slot doesn't change that fact. They should have been an Elites choice and maybe that change needs to happen.

It doesn't change the way I feel the CP detachment bonus should change. Perhaps there are some armies that need an addendum that could be addressed in a WD (Index Scion Strikeforce for example) that would give them an opportunity to field lone armies without too much of a hamstring. As it stands, I don't see why you should be rewarded with +10CP by bringing 2 battalions when it's just a few Troops choices. Not when other armies that are just as thematic but can barely bring +2CP.
Change Scions to Elite choices, I don't care, the system needs change. Or you could just take Astra Militarum options in your list to make up for those slots. Not much different to me hearing how I should just take scouts in my Ravenwing force.

I still stand by a battalion requiring one each of the elites, fast and heavy options.

Sorry, but the SOB are just the elite guardians of the Imperium. They should just be an elite option.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it’s troops, elites, transports, and flyers. Plus

Um, ACTUALLY, space marines are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Well HOLD ON, Primaris marines are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Uh, EXCUSE ME, but Grey Knights are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Oh, I'M SORRY, but Custodes are the elite guardians of the imperium, so they should be elites.

Checkmate, Atheists.

Proof that the rules-writers hate CWE. Their elite Guardians have the same rules as their non-elite Guardians - just some stratagem you can use. Otherwise, they're as durable as Guardsmen but twice the points.

When will GW's anti-Eldar bias end?

I disagree, i don`t like that they made storm guardians cheaper than boyz. Storm guardians really needed to be reworked, now players take them just to fill the slots and have extra bodies. Even 6 pts is to much compared with conscripts, guard, kabalites, fire warriors, skitari rangers, tsangors, cultist, horrors.....
The other think i don`t like is that for ancient dyeing race the eldar are kind of stupid, they value their lives more than anything yet they arm their militia with short range guns so the enemy can easily charge them and destroy them and that is in the iniverse where you can find lastguns and boltguns everywhere.
GW should either increase the range of their shuriken catapults or give them rule, for example they should be able to move after shooting or celestial shield should give them invul even in mele.

I'l reiterate my fix for CP

-First, make the spearhead, Vanguard, and outrider detachments worth 3 CP

-Then, get rid of the battle forge bonus and replace it with a 3 CP faction bonus( basically the same requirements that detachments have, so no imperium, chaos, etc)


These changes are not meant to be drastic but to tip the scale a little against soup. They would accomplish several things.

-If you want to soup, you have to give up that 3 CP bonus.

-The bonus can work as an additional balance variable, meaning that if you want to to further buff mono factions, increasing the bonus would be an option.

-The 3 CP detachments would enable elite armies to get more CP without a heavy troop tax or resorting to a battery. They could potentially get 12 command points with no troops


These changes won't cripple anything but would help out several CP starved armies. This fix is also simple enough to feasibly fit into an faq.




Regarding scions as troops.

If I recall correctly, they where troops when using the Tempestus codex, and elites in a guard army.

Just do the same here. It you have a militarum tempestus detachment, they count as troops, otherwise they are elites. You can also use this opportunity to change veterans into troops as well.