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 bullyboy wrote:
Problem?

To give an example;

A min-sized Guard battalion under your system costs 249pts. Said battalion is the loyal 32 plus a Commissar, a Heavy Weapons Squad and a Sentinel. Not bad for 249pts.

In the Necron codex, a troop costs 12pts. Minimum. The cheapest Necron Battalion you can make under your system (Two barebones Lords, 3*5 Immortals, 5 Flayed Ones, 3*Scarabs, 1 Heavy Destroyer) is 535 points, and just about every aspect of that Battalion does not function, independent of external comparison.

All your system does is change: "Minimum Troops+HQ costs > 180pts? Take a Guard Battalion instead!" into the far worse "Minimum Troops+HQ's+Elite+Fast Attacks+Heavy Support > 249pts? Take a Guard Battalion instead!" which is way more common.

 Chris521 wrote:
I'l reiterate my fix for CP

-First, make the spearhead, Vanguard, and outrider detachments worth 3 CP

-Then, get rid of the battle forge bonus and replace it with a 3 CP faction bonus( basically the same requirements that detachments have, so no imperium, chaos, etc)


These changes are not meant to be drastic but to tip the scale a little against soup. They would accomplish several things.

-If you want to soup, you have to give up that 3 CP bonus.

-The bonus can work as an additional balance variable, meaning that if you want to to further buff mono factions, increasing the bonus would be an option.

-The 3 CP detachments would enable elite armies to get more CP without a heavy troop tax or resorting to a battery. They could potentially get 12 command points with no troops


These changes won't cripple anything but would help out several CP starved armies. This fix is also simple enough to feasibly fit into an faq.




Regarding scions as troops.

If I recall correctly, they where troops when using the Tempestus codex, and elites in a guard army.

Just do the same here. It you have a militarum tempestus detachment, they count as troops, otherwise they are elites. You can also use this opportunity to change veterans into troops as well.

From a lore perspective, I always wondered what Veteran Squads thought of Scion Command Squads. It's basically the same unit, just with different weapons options, and can't understand the same orders given by different people. But honestly, Vets looking at Scions, and thinking, what makes them so special??? Emperor's finest my butt.

Lemondish wrote:

That might be how you feel, but they were always treated as a stand-alone army due to having a separate codex prior to being rolled into AM at the dawn of 8th.

How long have you been playing? To me, Scions (or as we called them back in the day, Stormtroopers) having their own codex was a fairly recent thing, and played out as an excuse to soak players for a few more bucks by getting them to buy a codex that, in earlier editions, would have been army rules released in White Dwarf for funsies.

And at that time, Stormies were an Elites choice.

 Chris521 wrote:
I'l reiterate my fix for CP

-First, make the spearhead, Vanguard, and outrider detachments worth 3 CP

-Then, get rid of the battle forge bonus and replace it with a 3 CP faction bonus( basically the same requirements that detachments have, so no imperium, chaos, etc)


These changes are not meant to be drastic but to tip the scale a little against soup. They would accomplish several things.

-If you want to soup, you have to give up that 3 CP bonus.

-The bonus can work as an additional balance variable, meaning that if you want to to further buff mono factions, increasing the bonus would be an option.

-The 3 CP detachments would enable elite armies to get more CP without a heavy troop tax or resorting to a battery. They could potentially get 12 command points with no troops


These changes won't cripple anything but would help out several CP starved armies. This fix is also simple enough to feasibly fit into an faq.




Regarding scions as troops.

If I recall correctly, they where troops when using the Tempestus codex, and elites in a guard army.

Just do the same here. It you have a militarum tempestus detachment, they count as troops, otherwise they are elites. You can also use this opportunity to change veterans into troops as well.

That was the old codex. Currently Tempestus Scion Squads are troops choices. Tempestus Scion Command Squads are elites, whereas they used to be HQ when the Tempestor Prime was with them, now he is alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition to what was being said earlier, I pay 9ppm for Scions. They are cheap command points that accomplish anything in barebones double Lord Commissar + minimum sized squad times three. That’s 5 CP, but also useless.

The army I’m building consists of two battalions with about one thousand points in each. I’m definitely committing enough points to the detachments, taking support from Lord Commissar, Officer of the Fleet, two Astropaths, three Valkyries and four Taurox Primes. Should this perfectly working army be messed up for a bad solution?

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Problem?

To give an example;

A min-sized Guard battalion under your system costs 249pts. Said battalion is the loyal 32 plus a Commissar, a Heavy Weapons Squad and a Sentinel. Not bad for 249pts.

In the Necron codex, a troop costs 12pts. Minimum. The cheapest Necron Battalion you can make under your system (Two barebones Lords, 3*5 Immortals, 5 Flayed Ones, 3*Scarabs, 1 Heavy Destroyer) is 535 points, and just about every aspect of that Battalion does not function, independent of external comparison.

All your system does is change: "Minimum Troops+HQ costs > 180pts? Take a Guard Battalion instead!" into the far worse "Minimum Troops+HQ's+Elite+Fast Attacks+Heavy Support > 249pts? Take a Guard Battalion instead!" which is way more common.

How does this affect Necrons? We're trying to cut back on CP bloat, don't think this even applies to Necrons

How do you stop X cheap thing being taken for CP's?

Not with complicated rules but simply by inverting the entire system.

Everyone starts with X CP's regardless of army. (could scale with points)
Every detachment gives a reduction in CP.

Big detachments (Brigade, Battalion) give a smaller reduction.
Small detachments (Vanguard, spearhead ect) give a bigger reduction.

Viola, soup for CP is dead.
Soup itself will still exist but carry an actual penalty compared to Mono lists (since you need more detachments and so start with less CP)

Does it fix everything? ofcourse not. No single change will but it will greatly improve some of the more glaring problems without getting all wierd or complicated.

 bullyboy wrote:
How does this affect Necrons? We're trying to cut back on CP bloat, don't think this even applies to Necrons

My point is that for many armies under your system, by the time they've filled their first Battalion with useful units they literally can't take a second Battallion or a third detachment, capping their CP to 5+3+1 (9), whereas Imperial Soup can still probably go 5+3+3+1 (12). Your system doesn't cut CP bloat, it cuts CP in general and does so more harshly for elite armies.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh for sure. I just love that when GW comes out with a really super simple solution like, oh, I don't know, slapping battalions up to 5CP and Brigades up to 12CP for no reason, and going "And now space marine armies will have 8-9CP to play with, PROBLEM SOLVED!" people instantaneously recognize that this is a hilariously over-simplistic solution and they're leaving out that they just handed even MORE CP to the ultra-cheap horde factions and made tack-on detachments even more mandatory.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Those changes occurred before the Castellan was around. It WAS a good change, because IG can't really use all that CP and elite armies COULD. Now it has become frankenstein with knights showing off their toys. This doesn't mean GW made a bad decision in the moment.

See guard plus Custards, see guard plus captain smash it wasn't just knights guard CP was always the problem. Nerfing smash captains just because guard could run 3 didn't actually help marines did it?

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
How does this affect Necrons? We're trying to cut back on CP bloat, don't think this even applies to Necrons

My point is that for many armies under your system, by the time they've filled their first Battalion with useful units they literally can't take a second Battallion or a third detachment, capping their CP to 5+3+1 (9), whereas Imperial Soup can still probably go 5+3+3+1 (12). Your system doesn't cut CP bloat, it cuts CP in general and does so more harshly for elite armies.

Id take 12 - 9 CP difference any day over what we have currently. Most of my armies dont even reach double digit CPs and many of them would get better with a 5CP base.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
Wasn't a dig at Guard, but rather the idea that going from a 180pt -> 249pt CP battery was in any way significant

Its absolutely significant if those additional requirements only yield 3CP instead of 5CP.

To answer your earlier question, lets take the old boogeyman from last year..Castellan, guard batt, BA Batt. Currently that yields 3CP base +3CP Castellan and +5CP ea for the battalions for a total of 16 CP.
In my suggestion it would yield 5CP base + 0 for Castellan, +6CP for both battalions for total of 11CP plus the two battalions would need more investment.
So what am I missing?

Your so wrong about that it was 3 battleforged 0 knight CP, +5and +5 for battalions plus the 6 regened by guard.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

That might be how you feel, but they were always treated as a stand-alone army due to having a separate codex prior to being rolled into AM at the dawn of 8th.

How long have you been playing? To me, Scions (or as we called them back in the day, Stormtroopers) having their own codex was a fairly recent thing, and played out as an excuse to soak players for a few more bucks by getting them to buy a codex that, in earlier editions, would have been army rules released in White Dwarf for funsies.

No, it wouldn't have been. At most it would have been army rules in a Chapter Approved only available for a year with a constantly argued about "legality".

And at that time, Stormies were an Elites choice.

Funny how you mention the "soak players for a few more bucks" bit...

Scions were Troops in Militarum Tempestus. They were also single squads of 5 models.
By comparison, they were Elites in Guard...and were available in Platoons of 1-3 Squads and a Command Squad.
The book went out of print for extensive amounts of time as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
How do you stop X cheap thing being taken for CP's?

By not letting Battalions or Brigades be taken as Allied Detachments.

Ice_can wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
Wasn't a dig at Guard, but rather the idea that going from a 180pt -> 249pt CP battery was in any way significant

Its absolutely significant if those additional requirements only yield 3CP instead of 5CP.

To answer your earlier question, lets take the old boogeyman from last year..Castellan, guard batt, BA Batt. Currently that yields 3CP base +3CP Castellan and +5CP ea for the battalions for a total of 16 CP.
In my suggestion it would yield 5CP base + 0 for Castellan, +6CP for both battalions for total of 11CP plus the two battalions would need more investment.
So what am I missing?

Your so wrong about that it was 3 battleforged 0 knight CP, +5and +5 for battalions plus the 6 regened by guard.

How on earth does that change the current situation with regen nerf and knight bonus increased?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone loves to pick on guard, but honestly there is more than just guard slipping by the troops tax.

Would it break the game to make Company Commanders 85pts? To elevate him closer to the other HQ's? I mean, even at 95pts he's still worth it.

If you want to "elevate him closer to the other HQs", you damn well better be putting a lot of options on him to make that price reasonable.
30 pts is 5+/5++ with 2 Orders and T3.

To put it in comparison, your "85pts"?
The new Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is 80pts base, 86pts kitted out as he is supposed to be.
WS 2+/BS3+ S/T/A4 with 5Ws and LD8 plus a 3+ save and Deep Strike and a reroll wound rolls of 1 for friendly Chapter units within 6". His Bolt Carbine(Master-Crafted Occulus" variant) grants him S4 RF1 AP0 2 damage @ 24" with the ability to make units not get the benefit of cover against them.

By comparison, that Company Commander has a Laspistol and Grenades.

Anytime someone makes the suggestion of "buff the price on Company Commanders", it makes me wonder if they ever have actually looked at the profiles on them or what they have available. Because that unit? It's not 85pts. It's not 95pts. It's not even 40pts.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone loves to pick on guard, but honestly there is more than just guard slipping by the troops tax.

Would it break the game to make Company Commanders 85pts? To elevate him closer to the other HQ's? I mean, even at 95pts he's still worth it.

If you want to "elevate him closer to the other HQs", you damn well better be putting a lot of options on him to make that price reasonable.
30 pts is 5+/5++ with 2 Orders and T3.

To put it in comparison, your "85pts"?
The new Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is 80pts base, 86pts kitted out as he is supposed to be.
WS 2+/BS3+ S/T/A4 with 5Ws and LD8 plus a 3+ save and Deep Strike and a reroll wound rolls of 1 for friendly Chapter units within 6". His Bolt Carbine(Master-Crafted Occulus" variant) grants him S4 RF1 AP0 2 damage @ 24" with the ability to make units not get the benefit of cover against them.

By comparison, that Company Commander has a Laspistol and Grenades.

Anytime someone makes the suggestion of "buff the price on Company Commanders", it makes me wonder if they ever have actually looked at the profiles on them or what they have available. Because that unit? It's not 85pts. It's not 95pts. It's not even 40pts.

Then you have to think about how the Tempestor Prime works. WS and BS 3. Has Aerial Drop. 4+ save, no invulnerable save. Give one order, or pays an extra 5 points to not have a pistol and take a rod which gives him a second order. Has frag and Krak grenades, while also having basic power weapon access, but you’d never use him for that.

 Kanluwen wrote:
By not letting Battalions or Brigades be taken as Allied Detachments.

"You may only take one of each of the following detachments: Battalion, Brigade". It's a bit harsher, but also a lot cleaner.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
I'l reiterate my fix for CP

-First, make the spearhead, Vanguard, and outrider detachments worth 3 CP

-Then, get rid of the battle forge bonus and replace it with a 3 CP faction bonus( basically the same requirements that detachments have, so no imperium, chaos, etc)


These changes are not meant to be drastic but to tip the scale a little against soup. They would accomplish several things.

-If you want to soup, you have to give up that 3 CP bonus.

-The bonus can work as an additional balance variable, meaning that if you want to to further buff mono factions, increasing the bonus would be an option.

-The 3 CP detachments would enable elite armies to get more CP without a heavy troop tax or resorting to a battery. They could potentially get 12 command points with no troops


These changes won't cripple anything but would help out several CP starved armies. This fix is also simple enough to feasibly fit into an faq.




Regarding scions as troops.

If I recall correctly, they where troops when using the Tempestus codex, and elites in a guard army.

Just do the same here. It you have a militarum tempestus detachment, they count as troops, otherwise they are elites. You can also use this opportunity to change veterans into troops as well.

From a lore perspective, I always wondered what Veteran Squads thought of Scion Command Squads. It's basically the same unit, just with different weapons options, and can't understand the same orders given by different people. But honestly, Vets looking at Scions, and thinking, what makes them so special??? Emperor's finest my butt.

Not to many now know if the current stormtrooper lore.
Scions are the best of orphaned noble blood/children of officers. Any memories they have are wiped later in the process. They get three years of training in the Schola Progenium. So First, Scions are smarter.
Then they are sent off to the Schola Tempestus to refine their stormtrooper skills.
Scions have far superior equipment, such as health monitors, carapace armor, magboots, airtight armor, better weapons and weapon access (and the training to use it), excellent medical supplies, nutrient feeders through the helmet for extended operations up to weeks at a time, and personal wrist mounted data slated for receiving orders.
With airtight armor and magboots, Scions are adept at surviving the cold realm of space for short times. With minimal shielding (their armor and a space thermal blanket) Scions can survive drops from planetary strataspheres.
Scion regiments also have a great deal autonomy, meaning they do not have to rely on the Adeptus Administratum to give them objectives all the time, allowing regiments to take their own initiative.
Scions are also usually much healthier, and have incredible stamina.

There are many reason for even the most experienced of guardsmen to be jealous of these stormtroopers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to "elevate him closer to the other HQs", you damn well better be putting a lot of options on him to make that price reasonable.
30 pts is 5+/5++ with 2 Orders and T3.

To put it in comparison, your "85pts"?
The new Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is 80pts base, 86pts kitted out as he is supposed to be.
WS 2+/BS3+ S/T/A4 with 5Ws and LD8 plus a 3+ save and Deep Strike and a reroll wound rolls of 1 for friendly Chapter units within 6". His Bolt Carbine(Master-Crafted Occulus" variant) grants him S4 RF1 AP0 2 damage @ 24" with the ability to make units not get the benefit of cover against them.

By comparison, that Company Commander has a Laspistol and Grenades.

Anytime someone makes the suggestion of "buff the price on Company Commanders", it makes me wonder if they ever have actually looked at the profiles on them or what they have available. Because that unit? It's not 85pts. It's not 95pts. It's not even 40pts.

The problem is you say this...and yet all of it is bloat. A primaris lieutenant does almost nothing. He's not a shooting threat since all he has is a 2 damage boltgun. He's not an assault threat with a few S4 dagger attacks because even if they are accurate he's taking out a couple of chaff a turn or failing to kill a marine.
He's a buff bot. He hangs out with your other units, and he buffs them. Assuming you castle up, its worth buffing units to do 7/6 times more damage (and smooth out bad luck, which is harder to quantify) - and he fills up an HQ slot which you have to do.

A company commander has no bloat. Okay he has a laspistol. You can buy him a bolter if you want? You don't though because... 1 bolter on a company commander isn't worth any more than that 2 damage magic bolt carbine above. In assault he only has 4 (chainsword) WS3+, S3 hits (or maybe S4, because Catachan master race)? Okay he's crap too - but so? Given he's almost a third of points he's actually a lot more efficient. The thing is though, he's a buff bot. He brings exceptional buffs to the table - and he's an incredibly cheap way of filling in those mandatory HQ slots. You also get a 5++ because... reasons.

The reality is that the leuitenant is probably worth about 10~ points more than the Company Commander for his statline. Unless you think rerolling 1s is worth 45 ish more points than having 2 orders, its fairly obvious who has the better deal.

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By not letting Battalions or Brigades be taken as Allied Detachments.

"You may only take one of each of the following detachments: Battalion, Brigade". It's a bit harsher, but also a lot cleaner.

Truthfully, if I had my way?

Each book would have access to different Detachments from the selection. The codex would tell you exactly what options you got both from your book and allied books.

So, for example, Guard:
-Battalion
-Brigade
-Spearhead
-Flyer Wing
-Supreme Command
-Auxiliary Superheavy or Superheavy

Blahblahblah "Guard can also take Vanguard, Outrider, Patrol or Auxiliary Detachments from any non-Guard Imperial keyworded faction."

We have Auxiliary Detachments in the game. Nobody takes them, because why would they? They deduct a CP anytime you use them.

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to "elevate him closer to the other HQs", you damn well better be putting a lot of options on him to make that price reasonable.
30 pts is 5+/5++ with 2 Orders and T3.

To put it in comparison, your "85pts"?
The new Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is 80pts base, 86pts kitted out as he is supposed to be.
WS 2+/BS3+ S/T/A4 with 5Ws and LD8 plus a 3+ save and Deep Strike and a reroll wound rolls of 1 for friendly Chapter units within 6". His Bolt Carbine(Master-Crafted Occulus" variant) grants him S4 RF1 AP0 2 damage @ 24" with the ability to make units not get the benefit of cover against them.

By comparison, that Company Commander has a Laspistol and Grenades.

Anytime someone makes the suggestion of "buff the price on Company Commanders", it makes me wonder if they ever have actually looked at the profiles on them or what they have available. Because that unit? It's not 85pts. It's not 95pts. It's not even 40pts.

The problem is you say this...and yet all of it is bloat. A primaris lieutenant does almost nothing. He's not a shooting threat since all he has is a 2 damage boltgun. He's not an assault threat with a few S4 dagger attacks because even if they are accurate he's taking out a couple of chaff a turn or failing to kill a marine.
He's a buff bot. He hangs out with your other units, and he buffs them. Assuming you castle up, its worth buffing units to do 7/6 times more damage (and smooth out bad luck, which is harder to quantify) - and he fills up an HQ slot which you have to do.

A company commander has no bloat. Okay he has a laspistol. You can buy him a bolter if you want? You don't though because... 1 bolter on a company commander isn't worth any more than that 2 damage magic bolt carbine above. In assault he only has 4 (chainsword) WS3+, S3 hits (or maybe S4, because Catachan master race)? Okay he's crap too - but so? Given he's almost a third of points he's actually a lot more efficient. The thing is though, he's a buff bot. He brings exceptional buffs to the table - and he's an incredibly cheap way of filling in those mandatory HQ slots. You also get a 5++ because... reasons.

The reality is that the leuitenant is probably worth about 10~ points more than the Company Commander for his statline. Unless you think rerolling 1s is worth 45 ish more points than having 2 orders, its fairly obvious who has the better deal.

Orders affect only affect two infantry units per CC, the LT can buff three leviathans with dual storm cannons + anything else you can stuff within 6". The LT's potential max buff output is way higher than the CC's.

If anything is needed to be addressed on the CC, it's that 'move move move' needs to cut one or both advance rolls so you can't get 18-24" movement on a squad of guardsmen.

I don't understand this hatred for soup. Yes the rules need some work but for non-competitive games it's no big deal. I'd like to see some of the terrain issues addressed. I understand it's difficult & can be some what subjectively but better definitions & rules for certain types of terrain would be good.

I would much rather see an anti-soup solution that doesn't effect monodex armies. Something along the lines of "strategems from another faction besides your warlord's add +1cp/1cp per faction other than your warlord." It does literally nothing to monodex, but hits literally every flavor of soup. Want Castellans, Loyal 32, and Banana bikes? You are paying +2 for either banana strats or knights strats and you've got to make a choice. You could even undo most of the strategem cost increase nerfs since they would effectively be the same/more for soup.

Tyel wrote:

The problem is you say this...and yet all of it is bloat. A primaris lieutenant does almost nothing. He's not a shooting threat since all he has is a 2 damage boltgun. He's not an assault threat with a few S4 dagger attacks because even if they are accurate he's taking out a couple of chaff a turn or failing to kill a marine.

He has a 2 damage ignore cover save modifiers boltgun.
And sure, he might not be the most terrifying thing in CC...but he's got a CCW as standard and has a rule(Knife Fighter: Unmodified rolls of 6 generate two hits instead of 1) that modifies his 4 attacks into potentially a bit more.

He's a buff bot. He hangs out with your other units, and he buffs them. Assuming you castle up, its worth buffing units to do 7/6 times more damage (and smooth out bad luck, which is harder to quantify) - and he fills up an HQ slot which you have to do.

You're not "castling up" with a Deep Striking Lieutenant. Or if you are, I don't know why you didn't just bring a standard Primaris Lt.

A company commander has no bloat. Okay he has a laspistol. You can buy him a bolter if you want? You don't though because... 1 bolter on a company commander isn't worth any more than that 2 damage magic bolt carbine above.

The difference is that "1 bolter" on the Company Commander is almost as many points as the master-crafted Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover Save modifiers is for the deep striking Lt.

In assault he only has 4 (chainsword) WS3+, S3 hits (or maybe S4, because Catachan master race)? Okay he's crap too - but so? Given he's almost a third of points he's actually a lot more efficient. The thing is though, he's a buff bot. He brings exceptional buffs to the table - and he's an incredibly cheap way of filling in those mandatory HQ slots. You also get a 5++ because... reasons.

You get a "5++" because of the Refractor Field that is baked into his points cost.
He "brings exceptional buffs to the table" for two units at any given time that cannot receive any other buff unless you roll 4+'s with specific Relic/Warlord traits.
PS: You have to opt for the Chainsword, it's not part of the standard profile. It's literally just the Laspistol and Frag Grenades to start with on a 4W model.

The reality is that the leuitenant is probably worth about 10~ points more than the Company Commander for his statline. Unless you think rerolling 1s is worth 45 ish more points than having 2 orders, its fairly obvious who has the better deal.

Rerolling 1s, deep striking, having a weapon that ignores cover saves, and exploding 6s turning 1 attack into 2.
Also a 3+ save, T4, S4, and a higher Wound count than the Company Commander.

So sure. Maybe Lieutenants could use a price drop. That doesn't mean that Company Commanders should be sitting at Marine HQ prices. Not unless we're getting Vox-Casters as standard wargear for units and Officers, Officers getting access to longer ranged/specialist weapons, etc etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkoz wrote:
I don't understand this hatred for soup. Yes the rules need some work but for non-competitive games it's no big deal. I'd like to see some of the terrain issues addressed. I understand it's difficult & can be some what subjectively but better definitions & rules for certain types of terrain would be good.

The problem, simply put, is that in anything other than a non-competitive environment where you don't have people trying to replicate tournament filth?

You usually have players self-policing or working off of "themes". When you get outside of that though it becomes blatantly obvious that soup is a large issue. There's a lot of things that can be done to simply tone it down without removing the spirit of the soup lists by making it so that you can't min/max as heavily.

dkoz wrote:
I don't understand this hatred for soup. Yes the rules need some work but for non-competitive games it's no big deal. I'd like to see some of the terrain issues addressed. I understand it's difficult & can be some what subjectively but better definitions & rules for certain types of terrain would be good.

I pretty much feel the same about soup. That's why my suggestions are much more delicate than most of the suggestions in this thread. I'm also in support of many of the Cities of Death terrain rules being added into the core game.

Ice_can wrote:

See guard plus Custards, see guard plus captain smash it wasn't just knights guard CP was always the problem. Nerfing smash captains just because guard could run 3 didn't actually help marines did it?

Smash never made it super far on their own.
Custodes were never a problem like Castellans - they were a cheap (points to $$) flavor of the month that people figured out how to deal with.

Your proposed system also allows these styles to be easily funded.

 Chris521 wrote:

dkoz wrote:
I don't understand this hatred for soup. Yes the rules need some work but for non-competitive games it's no big deal. I'd like to see some of the terrain issues addressed. I understand it's difficult & can be some what subjectively but better definitions & rules for certain types of terrain would be good.

I pretty much feel the same about soup. That's why my suggestions are much more delicate than most of the suggestions in this thread. I'm also in support of many of the Cities of Death terrain rules being added into the core game.

DKoz, you answered your own question in the second sentence. In casual play its fine, in competitive play its not. Feth, in casual/narrative/open play (Whatever you want to call it today), you can just say "Hey I know the stompa is like 30pts over priced so just take it as a 650pt unit instead of the almost 1,000pts it currently is. Or you can say "Yeah I realize my cool tank commanders are OP as hell, I love the model though so i'll only bring 1".

It boils down to this. In any kind of game play that isn't competitive the rules are rough guidelines that are followed at the users discretion. In competitive play, this is where rules are forged and decided upon as players try to find the most bang for their buck and find ways to maximize their chances of success. Simply put, Competitive game play needs rules, narrative/open whatever does not.

Well, if this thread has shown anything, it's that no matter what GW does or does not do to affect Cp and soup, people here won't be happy. Nobody can agree on anything really.

 bullyboy wrote:
Well, if this thread has shown anything, it's that no matter what GW does or does not do to affect Cp and soup, people here won't be happy. Nobody can agree on anything really.

That's hardly surprising.
At this point I don't care about what's in the FAQ and what is not, I just wanna see them so that the wait is over.

 bullyboy wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
Wasn't a dig at Guard, but rather the idea that going from a 180pt -> 249pt CP battery was in any way significant

Its absolutely significant if those additional requirements only yield 3CP instead of 5CP.

To answer your earlier question, lets take the old boogeyman from last year..Castellan, guard batt, BA Batt. Currently that yields 3CP base +3CP Castellan and +5CP ea for the battalions for a total of 16 CP.
In my suggestion it would yield 5CP base + 0 for Castellan, +6CP for both battalions for total of 11CP plus the two battalions would need more investment.
So what am I missing?

Your so wrong about that it was 3 battleforged 0 knight CP, +5and +5 for battalions plus the 6 regened by guard.

How on earth does that change the current situation with regen nerf and knight bonus increased?

The knights CP bonus doesn't work in Super heavy aux detachment nerver has, so your in 676 points of knights for 3 CP or 1056 for 6 CP you really think that is where the problem lies, not the 5CP for 180 or 12 for under 1k?


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

See guard plus Custards, see guard plus captain smash it wasn't just knights guard CP was always the problem. Nerfing smash captains just because guard could run 3 didn't actually help marines did it?

Smash never made it super far on their own.
Custodes were never a problem like Castellans - they were a cheap (points to $$) flavor of the month that people figured out how to deal with.

Your proposed system also allows these styles to be easily funded.

Not sure how you get that idea, when it was a 2 stage plan of change the system then recosting all strategums for said new system.
Redesigning the system to work with current CP costs massively hamstrings the options available, and would undoubtedly have a codex or 2 that's going to be OP or trashed.
One without the other won't actually balance the problem just shift it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:

The problem is you say this...and yet all of it is bloat. A primaris lieutenant does almost nothing. He's not a shooting threat since all he has is a 2 damage boltgun. He's not an assault threat with a few S4 dagger attacks because even if they are accurate he's taking out a couple of chaff a turn or failing to kill a marine.

He has a 2 damage ignore cover save modifiers boltgun.
And sure, he might not be the most terrifying thing in CC...but he's got a CCW as standard and has a rule(Knife Fighter: Unmodified rolls of 6 generate two hits instead of 1) that modifies his 4 attacks into potentially a bit more.

He's a buff bot. He hangs out with your other units, and he buffs them. Assuming you castle up, its worth buffing units to do 7/6 times more damage (and smooth out bad luck, which is harder to quantify) - and he fills up an HQ slot which you have to do.

You're not "castling up" with a Deep Striking Lieutenant. Or if you are, I don't know why you didn't just bring a standard Primaris Lt.

A company commander has no bloat. Okay he has a laspistol. You can buy him a bolter if you want? You don't though because... 1 bolter on a company commander isn't worth any more than that 2 damage magic bolt carbine above.

The difference is that "1 bolter" on the Company Commander is almost as many points as the master-crafted Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover Save modifiers is for the deep striking Lt.

In assault he only has 4 (chainsword) WS3+, S3 hits (or maybe S4, because Catachan master race)? Okay he's crap too - but so? Given he's almost a third of points he's actually a lot more efficient. The thing is though, he's a buff bot. He brings exceptional buffs to the table - and he's an incredibly cheap way of filling in those mandatory HQ slots. You also get a 5++ because... reasons.

You get a "5++" because of the Refractor Field that is baked into his points cost.
He "brings exceptional buffs to the table" for two units at any given time that cannot receive any other buff unless you roll 4+'s with specific Relic/Warlord traits.
PS: You have to opt for the Chainsword, it's not part of the standard profile. It's literally just the Laspistol and Frag Grenades to start with on a 4W model.

The reality is that the leuitenant is probably worth about 10~ points more than the Company Commander for his statline. Unless you think rerolling 1s is worth 45 ish more points than having 2 orders, its fairly obvious who has the better deal.

Rerolling 1s, deep striking, having a weapon that ignores cover saves, and exploding 6s turning 1 attack into 2.
Also a 3+ save, T4, S4, and a higher Wound count than the Company Commander.

So sure. Maybe Lieutenants could use a price drop. That doesn't mean that Company Commanders should be sitting at Marine HQ prices. Not unless we're getting Vox-Casters as standard wargear for units and Officers, Officers getting access to longer ranged/specialist weapons, etc etc.


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dkoz wrote:
I don't understand this hatred for soup. Yes the rules need some work but for non-competitive games it's no big deal. I'd like to see some of the terrain issues addressed. I understand it's difficult & can be some what subjectively but better definitions & rules for certain types of terrain would be good.

The problem, simply put, is that in anything other than a non-competitive environment where you don't have people trying to replicate tournament filth?

You usually have players self-policing or working off of "themes". When you get outside of that though it becomes blatantly obvious that soup is a large issue. There's a lot of things that can be done to simply tone it down without removing the spirit of the soup lists by making it so that you can't min/max as heavily.

Just so I understand, you think FRFSRF and MMM is somehow LESS efficient than Re-roll 1s? Because I'd LOVE for one squad of my weapons to suddenly become RF2 for 35pts, over their ability to re-roll ones. If you think FRSSRF and MMM are validated at 35pts, youre insane.

Yeah except that doubling the firerate of lasguns is very much not so bonkers.