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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I seriously can't believe some people are still arguing that Guard squads are not overpowered for their cost. And I was a die-hard fan of IG up until I played a different army and saw how easy guard have it.

The current state of guard is literally indefensible by logic, only by woo and irrationality.

Your forgetting the first rule of guard club
Never admit how powerful your units are. Like EVER !!!

I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing the data from the upcoming ITC season with best infaction requiring pure lists.
I suspect it's going to be interesting watching the results and how people try to spin those results.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We don't need even cheaper units. Its just a dodge around the fact that guardsmen deliver more than 4 pts of value.

Yeah 5ppm Guardsmen would have significant changes to the overall meta (for the better). 11-12ppm Marines/CSM would be the next needed step. -1ppm for both Necron Troops would be good too. Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm
Troop cost has much wider implications than just the value of the model itself. And will continue to affect games so long as CPs are generated disproportionately through 5CP Battalions.

Any army having access to Troops less than 5ppm, while other armies can't get anything less than 10ppm, especially when those factions are Imperium, Choas or Eldar, creates imbalance in the game. You either HAVE to take a cheapo Battalion even if you dont' want too, or you outright cannot take allies at all. Necrons are a good example of a faction that is suffering wildly from this. They don't even show up at most tourneys, although admittedly they have other issues too.
-

I think Necrons are in a better place post-CA than they have been all edition. The issue is a lack of synergy in the book on top of having a lot of units which don't work at all. I think Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, Annihilation Barges (the list goes on) are just objectively bad or have major problems. You can however have a reasonable army composed of (overpriced) buffing characters, Tesla Immortals, Destroyers and DDAs (maybe Wraiths, not 100% convinced though). Its not very flexible, but it works.

I think Guardsmen should be 5 points and company commanders at least 45-50. Marines/CSM should be 11-12 points. I don't think Eldar troops are the issue, the issue is Ynnari and -1 to hit stacking. Making it so you can't stack -1 to hit would be a good thing for the game, and if it requires some rebalancing (muh Harlequins) you can do that later. Or give them an exception. I think its the easiest way to nerf Eldar Flyers, although it might not be enough.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm

"Kabalites rarely see play even at 6pts, but maybe if we up them to 7pts then they'll come full circle and be playable again."

Says something about eldar, because they are too good at 6pts. It doesnt matter if they are getting used.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm

"Kabalites rarely see play even at 6pts, but maybe if we up them to 7pts then they'll come full circle and be playable again."

Kabalites are literally one of the most commonly taken units in Aeldari lists on the top tables in tournaments. The claim that they're rarely played is just flat out wrong.

Tyel wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We don't need even cheaper units. Its just a dodge around the fact that guardsmen deliver more than 4 pts of value.

Yeah 5ppm Guardsmen would have significant changes to the overall meta (for the better). 11-12ppm Marines/CSM would be the next needed step. -1ppm for both Necron Troops would be good too. Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm
Troop cost has much wider implications than just the value of the model itself. And will continue to affect games so long as CPs are generated disproportionately through 5CP Battalions.

Any army having access to Troops less than 5ppm, while other armies can't get anything less than 10ppm, especially when those factions are Imperium, Choas or Eldar, creates imbalance in the game. You either HAVE to take a cheapo Battalion even if you dont' want too, or you outright cannot take allies at all. Necrons are a good example of a faction that is suffering wildly from this. They don't even show up at most tourneys, although admittedly they have other issues too.
-

I think Necrons are in a better place post-CA than they have been all edition. The issue is a lack of synergy in the book on top of having a lot of units which don't work at all. I think Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, Annihilation Barges (the list goes on) are just objectively bad or have major problems. You can however have a reasonable army composed of (overpriced) buffing characters, Tesla Immortals, Destroyers and DDAs (maybe Wraiths, not 100% convinced though). Its not very flexible, but it works.

I think Guardsmen should be 5 points and company commanders at least 45-50. Marines/CSM should be 11-12 points. I don't think Eldar troops are the issue, the issue is Ynnari and -1 to hit stacking. Making it so you can't stack -1 to hit would be a good thing for the game, and if it requires some rebalancing (muh Harlequins) you can do that later. Or give them an exception. I think its the easiest way to nerf Eldar Flyers, although it might not be enough.

Then what are Tempestor Primes and Scions?

Probably undercosted.

Tyel wrote:
I think Necrons are in a better place post-CA than they have been all edition. The issue is a lack of synergy in the book on top of having a lot of units which don't work at all. I think Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, Annihilation Barges (the list goes on) are just objectively bad or have major problems. You can however have a reasonable army composed of (overpriced) buffing characters, Tesla Immortals, Destroyers and DDAs (maybe Wraiths, not 100% convinced though). Its not very flexible, but it works.

The TL;DR of the Necron Tactica post CA 2018 is indeed something like this. I'll add Scarabs which are also good (because they are cheap). Wraith are very playable imho. C'tan can work and make nasty surprises but are not cheap. Tomb Blades are no way a bad unit.

But i don't think in all these units there is something reallly unique that everybody would want in another army. We have no double movement, no double shoot. The double fight is gated behind the Novokh trait and difficulty to engage. It's difficult to farm CP too (9 for a bataillon + spearhead/vanguard/outrider is usually the best you can have).

I'll don't say that Necron are bad, but they are one of the fairest army i think. Their special rule (RP) has a counterplay for the opponent, and they don't "cheat" with other basic rules of the game.
Of course RP will sometime trigger and i can be very strong, but more often that not, it's useless (last game : 0 RP rolls).

I actually refrained from bringing up Necrons specifically (other than as examples for costings) because RP in 8th edition is a win-more mechanic and most of the data sheets need a re-write at this point. But hey, I'll take points reductions on the garbage units for now. And for the Triarch's sake give the Monolith an invuln.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Then what are Tempestor Primes and Scions?

Don't seem to be meta relevant, so at best average, possibly bad.

Going to go out on a limb here - Tempestor Primes are not great. Or at least given the fact you are paying 10 points over a company commander in order to give in your 5++ and ability to order a second units (unless you take the rod for more points). In exchange you get a 4+ regular save and a hot-shot laspistol - the most efficient 6" S3 gun in the galaxy, which is surely almost as potent as a boltgun that ignores cover saves.
You do get to deep strike, which is sort of nice I guess, but so many things seem to get deep strike for free its hard to consider it a great value.

Basic scions are kind of average. Defensively you have fire warrior stats. Offensively you have nothing in close combat, shooting is okay if you are in 9". Which you won't be immediately after deep striking. You are a good advert for why people don't typically take Dire Avengers - but really, you are over twice the points of a guardsman and only have a 4+ save to his 5+ save.

For some crude maths:

Guardsman shooting Marine:
2*1/2*1/3*1/3=1.44 points, equals 36% return.
Scion:
2*2/3*1/3*2/3=3.85 points, equals 42.8% return.

So thats nice.
But
Marine shooting Guardsman:
2*2/3*2/3*2/3*4/13=18.23%
Marine shooting scion:
2*2/3*2/3*1/2*9/13=30.7%.

This is very crude, but doing 18% more damage but taking nearly 70% back isn't a good trade. You can mess around with plasma, and regimental doctines and so on, but really this is why we don't see mono-scions. They just die.

Taurox Primes are in a similar boat. They are not terrible - and if you play with them they can do fine. But they are not "good" if that makes sense. You can't just look at them and go "yeah, its too cheap".

Maybe not as much as i thought, but they sure seem like better marines than marines.

Necrons aren't necessarily a terrible army. Their current issue is that they don't stand out from the other factions. They don't really excel at anything in particular that would make a player choose them over another faction as it stands.

Scions are GW tricking Guard players into spending more money on units they don't need.

For a more comprehensive list of these types of units, see:

EVERYTHING NOT A LEHMAN RUSS BATTLE TANK.

 Burnage wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm

"Kabalites rarely see play even at 6pts, but maybe if we up them to 7pts then they'll come full circle and be playable again."

Kabalites are literally one of the most commonly taken units in Aeldari lists on the top tables in tournaments. The claim that they're rarely played is just flat out wrong.

Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.

Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).

Ice_can wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I seriously can't believe some people are still arguing that Guard squads are not overpowered for their cost. And I was a die-hard fan of IG up until I played a different army and saw how easy guard have it.

The current state of guard is literally indefensible by logic, only by woo and irrationality.

Your forgetting the first rule of guard club
Never admit how powerful your units are. Like EVER !!!

I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing the data from the upcoming ITC season with best infaction requiring pure lists.
I suspect it's going to be interesting watching the results and how people try to spin those results.

What results? You're so far away from competitive play you have no idea what the changes to BiF even means. The change means absolutely nothing in terms of what takes top 8 at majors, which will still be soup. The only difference now is that soup players won't be taking BiF awards as consolation prize for not taking best in ITC. As for mono codex power, Mono-Guard are completely shut out of top tables by Eldar and I don't see that changing as long as -2/-3 is so stupidly easy to stack.

As for dealing with FRFSRF bogeymen, I would like to introduce you to the humble Deathwatch Intercessor.

10 Deathwatch Intercessors in cover vs FOUR Infantry squads and two company commanders with FRFSRF starting at 30"range. 180 points vs 220 points.
Turn One
One dead guard squad. Straight up deleted with hellfire rounds and reroll 1's to wound.
Guard squads move into 24" range, engage FRFSRF on three of the squads. 54 shots, 1.4 wounds after save, let's be generous and say we dropped an Intercessor. Without cover, it's 3 wounds, so either way, still 9 models left.

Turn Two
Second guard squad loses 9 men, probably not spending CP to save one guardsmen, he runs.
Guard squads move to 18", let's again be generous and say they're Armageddon, so now they're getting full value on FRFSRF. 72 shots. Another dead intercessor, two more dead intercessors out of cover.

Turn Three
Third guard squad takes 8 casualties, 7 if the Intercessors have not been in cover this whole time. We'll say the Guard player spent a CP to make it a 1D3 morale check and they passed though.
Guard squads move to 12", FRFSRF on the three survivors from squad three and the untouched squad. 49 shots. 1.29 wounds. feth it, let's just say they dropped another Intercessor cause the Guardsmen need the help at this point.

Turn Four
Intercessors can easily clean up with a round of shooting + charging. The company commanders might now be tying them up for the rest of the game, but the Guard player in this scenario burned 1 CP, has been wasting 4/6 possible orders the whole game, tied up or lost 220 points of their own units, and in ITC gave up at least four primary points on approach, with a probable two more from either Butcher's Bill or Reaper.

You could MMM all four of the squads turn one into RF range, but at that point, the play is to move up 6", split fire at the two furthest squads, and charge the full strength one before they can get a FRFSRF volley.

So what about non-DW marines?

There's nothing humble about SIA.

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I seriously can't believe some people are still arguing that Guard squads are not overpowered for their cost. And I was a die-hard fan of IG up until I played a different army and saw how easy guard have it.

The current state of guard is literally indefensible by logic, only by woo and irrationality.

Your forgetting the first rule of guard club
Never admit how powerful your units are. Like EVER !!!

I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing the data from the upcoming ITC season with best infaction requiring pure lists.
I suspect it's going to be interesting watching the results and how people try to spin those results.

What results? You're so far away from competitive play you have no idea what the changes to BiF even means. The change means absolutely nothing in terms of what takes top 8 at majors, which will still be soup. The only difference now is that soup players won't be taking BiF awards as consolation prize for not taking best in ITC. As for mono codex power, Mono-Guard are completely shut out of top tables by Eldar and I don't see that changing as long as -2/-3 is so stupidly easy to stack.

As for dealing with FRFSRF bogeymen, I would like to introduce you to the humble Deathwatch Intercessor.

10 Deathwatch Intercessors in cover vs FOUR Infantry squads and two company commanders with FRFSRF starting at 30"range. 180 points vs 220 points.
Turn One
One dead guard squad. Straight up deleted with hellfire rounds and reroll 1's to wound.
Guard squads move into 24" range, engage FRFSRF on three of the squads. 54 shots, 1.4 wounds after save, let's be generous and say we dropped an Intercessor. Without cover, it's 3 wounds, so either way, still 9 models left.

Turn Two
Second guard squad loses 9 men, probably not spending CP to save one guardsmen, he runs.
Guard squads move to 18", let's again be generous and say they're Armageddon, so now they're getting full value on FRFSRF. 72 shots. Another dead intercessor, two more dead intercessors out of cover.

Turn Three
Third guard squad takes 8 casualties, 7 if the Intercessors have not been in cover this whole time. We'll say the Guard player spent a CP to make it a 1D3 morale check and they passed though.
Guard squads move to 12", FRFSRF on the three survivors from squad three and the untouched squad. 49 shots. 1.29 wounds. feth it, let's just say they dropped another Intercessor cause the Guardsmen need the help at this point.

Turn Four
Intercessors can easily clean up with a round of shooting + charging. The company commanders might now be tying them up for the rest of the game, but the Guard player in this scenario burned 1 CP, has been wasting 4/6 possible orders the whole game, tied up or lost 220 points of their own units, and in ITC gave up at least four primary points on approach, with a probable two more from either Butcher's Bill or Reaper.

You could MMM all four of the squads turn one into RF range, but at that point, the play is to move up 6", split fire at the two furthest squads, and charge the full strength one before they can get a FRFSRF volley.

And when your Guard squads cost as much as a DW Intercessor Squad, you can complain about how weak they are. But why stop there? A guard squad can't compare to a Leviathan, NERF THE LEVIATHAN.

See, you can't compare the two. It's silly to do so. Also please point to me the lists loading out 8 squads of DW Intercessors that are winning majors. Hell, point to me the list of any DW w/ pure intercessors squads. So in effect, that is not a fair argument. DW is not in any way breaking the Meta with their overpoweredness.

Also you gave all the boneses to Intercessors, and took the guard out of RF range. This is horribly skewed. LOS exists for a reason.

Glad I wasn't the only one wondering why he jumped to DW intercessors, not even normal marine intercessors which are definitely better than a vanilla tac marine vrs Guard comparison.

But about the Best in Faction stuff if the best in faction for say 4 factions are averaging double the score of the best in faction for another faction especially it might just highlight some of the power imbalances. Also the more people taking prue lists the more data there is to actually analyse.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not as much as i thought, but they sure seem like better marines than marines.

I mean, only if you like exchanging beta bolters for "doesn't quiiiiiiiiiite rapid fire out of deep strike" hotshot lasguns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
So what about non-DW marines?

There's nothing humble about SIA.

I mean, despite its hilariously low hype to actual results ratio.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not as much as i thought, but they sure seem like better marines than marines.

I mean, only if you like exchanging beta bolters for "doesn't quiiiiiiiiiite rapid fire out of deep strike" hotshot lasguns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
So what about non-DW marines?

There's nothing humble about SIA.

I mean, despite its hilariously low hype to actual results ratio.

It's the free deepstrike and marine level BS for 9 pts. Basically, they are marines with all the crap cut away.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scions are GW tricking Guard players into spending more money on units they don't need.

For a more comprehensive list of these types of units, see:

EVERYTHING NOT A LEHMAN RUSS BATTLE TANK.

I like you.

I would love to see more armoured columns, less giant stompy robots. Not that giant stompy robots aren't super cool. But tanks are cooler

I feel like they should have given all tanks a unique keyword for that vehicle type that comes with a version of steel behemoth that allows them to fire sponson and hull mounted weapons at units within 1'', fire turret mounted weapons at anybody except units within 1'', and fall back but still shoot/charge. I feel like a tank in 40k should be a vehicle that crashes into infantry lines to break a stalemate. It shouldn't just provide distant fire support. Their mobility should matter more than just re-positioning for line of sight, and it's downright disappointing that a single model getting into combat with them somehow silences the bloody thing.

With those benefits, you have more defensive options for keeping your tanks alive, effective, and contributing to the fight even without having to give them ridiculous weapons, pinpoint accuracy, or some kind of invuln save. One of the most powerful things for protecting a unit is putting it into combat, but that requires a commitment from the player and is the epitome of risk reward.

This is what I would love to see as a beta rule in an FAQ. Some way to make Vehicles more viable. Specifically those Vehicles that aren't Knights and don't have Fly.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.

Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).

Wait so the idea of a good eldar unit is one that is cheap, kills stuff a lot and doesn't die? I guess it is a way of thinking about balance. Does it have to be fast moving too?

Martel732 wrote:
So what about non-DW marines?

There's nothing humble about SIA.

Fine, Raven Guard Intercessors.

Turn One
Kill 7 turn one. Guard player can choose to spend a CP, but probably not worth it.
Guard player MMM's the three remaining squads from 30" to 11". No shooting

Turn Two
Raven Guard player moves up 6", shoots the furthest squad, kills another seven. Charges the closest squad and piles into the second closest squad. .31 wounds expected on overwatch. Kills 6 guardsmen in the charged squad. Takes one wound in CC from the remaining catachan infantry.
Guard player falls back and used GBitF. Finally kills an Intercessor, maybe two.

Turn Three
RG kills 6 in the healthy squad, charges the rest.

Being less aggressive and using Armageddon to stay out of charge range while still getting rapid fire:
Turn One
RG kills 7 guardsmen. They're not Catachan, so there's good odds of losing 1 or 2 even with Fight to the Death. Probably not worth 2 CP to save three guardsmen.
Guard player moves to 24", FRFSRF with three remaining squads. 54 shots, one wound gets through if in cover, two if out. -1 is a bitch. We'll say one dead intercessor either way though.

Turn Two
RG kills 6 more guardsmen. You're still losing minimum 1 even with FttD. But we'll say three lasgun guardsmen stick around from this squad after spending 1 CP.
Guard player moves to 18". FRFSRF on everyone for 84 shots this time! 1.5 wounds in cover, but 3 if no cover.

Turn Three
RG Kills 6 more guardsmen if they've been in cover this whole time, 5 if not. Guard player spends another CP to keep the other squad in the fight.
Guard player moves to 12". FRFSRF on whoever is left (1 full strength, two 3 man squads). 60 shots. 1.6 wounds in cover, 3 if no cover. At this point, we should have 7-8 intercessors left if they've been in cover this whole time, 6 if not.

Turn Four
RG player moves up, splits fire, killing five guardsmen in the two remnant squads, charges the full health one. Kills four in close combat. Takes .32 wounds back in CC from the guardsmen
The six man squad falls back, GBitF, does one wound.

Turn Five
RG shoots/charges the remaining six to death.

That's with two CP spent and a 40 point lead.

It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not as much as i thought, but they sure seem like better marines than marines.

I mean, only if you like exchanging beta bolters for "doesn't quiiiiiiiiiite rapid fire out of deep strike" hotshot lasguns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
So what about non-DW marines?

There's nothing humble about SIA.

I mean, despite its hilariously low hype to actual results ratio.

It's the free deepstrike and marine level BS for 9 pts. Basically, they are marines with all the crap cut away.

So they're kind of like the Dick Genie version of marines?

"SPACE MARIIIINE, you have freed me from my prison, what dost thou wish?"

"I'd like you to give those Primaris marines terrible rules!"

"DONE! Second wish?"

"you know I'd really like to cut all the crap out of my statline! Maybe I could keep my ballistic skill and you could get rid of my leadership, ATSKNF, 3+ armor, S4, T4, and give me a hip new chaff-y point value for 8th edition?"

"Done and done! Well chosen milord, surely you will be the meta now! and for your final wish?"

"Deep strike! They made drop pods so terrible! I'd love to be able to drop in and engage enemies from 9" away!"

"Oh but of course....hheheheheheh....huahahahahahaaaaa...and to take that wish extremely literally, I shall give you deep strike AND a NINE INCH RAPID FIRE RANGE!"

"wait, but, that divides my firepower in half! Wait, I take it back!"

"WAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!"

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Troops are probably fine overall, but Kabalites could do with +1ppm

"Kabalites rarely see play even at 6pts, but maybe if we up them to 7pts then they'll come full circle and be playable again."

Kabalites are literally one of the most commonly taken units in Aeldari lists on the top tables in tournaments. The claim that they're rarely played is just flat out wrong.

Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.

Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).

"This 6 point model doesn't do enough damage" is a point that I really have trouble wrapping my head around in these discussions. Taking up board space, capturing objectives and filling detachment slots is still enough utility to get value out of such a cheap unit - even ignoring that poison weaponry mostly works out to be equivalent to any other bog standard S3 or 4 basic infantry weapon in the game.

Whether Guardsmen should go up in value also feels like part of the same topic to me, but YMMV.

Maybe. Deep strike still works fine for plasma, though. That's probably their killer app.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I seriously can't believe some people are still arguing that Guard squads are not overpowered for their cost. And I was a die-hard fan of IG up until I played a different army and saw how easy guard have it.

The current state of guard is literally indefensible by logic, only by woo and irrationality.

Your forgetting the first rule of guard club
Never admit how powerful your units are. Like EVER !!!

I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing the data from the upcoming ITC season with best infaction requiring pure lists.
I suspect it's going to be interesting watching the results and how people try to spin those results.

What results? You're so far away from competitive play you have no idea what the changes to BiF even means. The change means absolutely nothing in terms of what takes top 8 at majors, which will still be soup. The only difference now is that soup players won't be taking BiF awards as consolation prize for not taking best in ITC. As for mono codex power, Mono-Guard are completely shut out of top tables by Eldar and I don't see that changing as long as -2/-3 is so stupidly easy to stack.

As for dealing with FRFSRF bogeymen, I would like to introduce you to the humble Deathwatch Intercessor.

10 Deathwatch Intercessors in cover vs FOUR Infantry squads and two company commanders with FRFSRF starting at 30"range. 180 points vs 220 points.
Turn One
One dead guard squad. Straight up deleted with hellfire rounds and reroll 1's to wound.
Guard squads move into 24" range, engage FRFSRF on three of the squads. 54 shots, 1.4 wounds after save, let's be generous and say we dropped an Intercessor. Without cover, it's 3 wounds, so either way, still 9 models left.

Turn Two
Second guard squad loses 9 men, probably not spending CP to save one guardsmen, he runs.
Guard squads move to 18", let's again be generous and say they're Armageddon, so now they're getting full value on FRFSRF. 72 shots. Another dead intercessor, two more dead intercessors out of cover.

Turn Three
Third guard squad takes 8 casualties, 7 if the Intercessors have not been in cover this whole time. We'll say the Guard player spent a CP to make it a 1D3 morale check and they passed though.
Guard squads move to 12", FRFSRF on the three survivors from squad three and the untouched squad. 49 shots. 1.29 wounds. feth it, let's just say they dropped another Intercessor cause the Guardsmen need the help at this point.

Turn Four
Intercessors can easily clean up with a round of shooting + charging. The company commanders might now be tying them up for the rest of the game, but the Guard player in this scenario burned 1 CP, has been wasting 4/6 possible orders the whole game, tied up or lost 220 points of their own units, and in ITC gave up at least four primary points on approach, with a probable two more from either Butcher's Bill or Reaper.

You could MMM all four of the squads turn one into RF range, but at that point, the play is to move up 6", split fire at the two furthest squads, and charge the full strength one before they can get a FRFSRF volley.

And when your Guard squads cost as much as a DW Intercessor Squad, you can complain about how weak they are. But why stop there? A guard squad can't compare to a Leviathan, NERF THE LEVIATHAN.

See, you can't compare the two. It's silly to do so. Also please point to me the lists loading out 8 squads of DW Intercessors that are winning majors. Hell, point to me the list of any DW w/ pure intercessors squads. So in effect, that is not a fair argument. DW is not in any way breaking the Meta with their overpoweredness.

Also you gave all the boneses to Intercessors, and took the guard out of RF range. This is horribly skewed. LOS exists for a reason.

I'm not complaining about how weak guardsmen are, I'm pointing out that FRFSRF guardsmen are not some OP punch above their weight squad in a realistic scenario and even used MORE points in guardsmen than Intercessors. Yes, if you magically got them all into RF range then they will punch above their weight. But unless you're a mouthbreather, the Guard player is never going to get that opportunity.

Because the guardsmen don't start in RF range. And there's no way you're maneuvering 40 models without at least one squad of them being in LOS. If anything, this was skewed in favor of the guardsmen. The guardsmen have 40 points and two extra CP in this scenario and the best possible regiment tactic for FRFSRF. Cadian can't get rerolls on the move.

I didn't give DW 'all the bonuses', I gave them their chapter tactic and standard ammo for a T3 target. That's like complaining about me simulating Raven Guard getting their -1 to hit.

Martel732 wrote:
It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.

If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?

Like, compare apples to apples buddy. If it's the same pts vs the same pts, then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons.

Pleasestop wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.

If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?

Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.

All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.

"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."

Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?