Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
Xenomancers wrote: I mean....Does anyone really want to face 9 Ravagers?
You know, back in the bad old days, we used to have this mystical thing called a "Force Organisation Chart".
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Xenomancers wrote: I mean....Does anyone really want to face 9 Ravagers?
You know, back in the bad old days, we used to have this mystical thing called a "Force Organisation Chart".
Yep, I remember well. For you young whipper-snappers, the "FOC" was a single detachment that not only limited you to 3 of any unit, but 3 of any SLOT. So 3 Heavy Supports MAX. And this was the only "detachment" available to several editions and you had to fit your ENTIRE army into it.
The madness of multiple factions and multiple detachments didn't start until 6E with the Allie Detachment. It got REALLY crazy in 7E with Formations. 8E was better...at first....because it removed Formations, but with the amount of detachments available and a the Codex shenanigans, we may as well be back to 7E Formations.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 15:37:20
Xenomancers wrote: I mean....Does anyone really want to face 9 Ravagers?
You know, back in the bad old days, we used to have this mystical thing called a "Force Organisation Chart".
Yep, I remember well. For you young whipper-snappers, the "FOC" was a single detachment that not only limited you to 3 of any unit, but 3 of any SLOT. So 3 Heavy Supports MAX.
And this was the only "detachment" available to several editions and you had to fit your ENTIRE army into it.
The madness of multiple factions and multiple detachments didn't start until 6E with the Allie Detachment.
It got REALLY crazy in 7E with Formations. 8E was better...at first....because it removed Formations, but with the amount of detachments available and a the Codex shenanigans, we may as well be back to 7E Formations.
-
Except back in the FOC days yoy also had biker troops, tanks as troops and other weird and wonderful special rules to basically throw it in the bin.
Also if you wanted to go to really interesting, who remembers max 50 percent HQ, 25% troops min, 50 percent support mac and allies counted as support.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 15:41:31
Yeah, I recall the FOC ending up as more of a suggestion by the time it was retired. Nor do I miss the days when lists built themselves because of the lack of room (codex to codex problem admittedly).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 15:42:54
Wayniac wrote: FOC was way better than what we have now. FOC with Rites of War from 30k would be the best approach.
Disagree entirely, detachments are good the issue as usual is GW had an idea and implimented it poorly.
Returning to the force org chart would instantly result in well if you take x charictors Y becomes troops enjoy fighting that massed russ list headed by pask, or well whitescars can't field an all bike list DA can.
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument. Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5. Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 16:03:29
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument. Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5. Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
2+2 equals five if you see a three and persist in pointing your finger at it and screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU THAT IS A TWO".
So 5 traits is better than 1,
unless that 1 trait is better
like how this one trait is superior to another trait
but this other trait comes with a better stratagem and warlord trait, so it's competitive
therefore the game is...IMbalanced?
Maybe, just maybe, the problem here is, you are evaluating a tiny, narrow factor as your evidence for relative balance because it confirms your preconceived conclusions and ignoring evidence that conflicts by the same criteria.
I demonstrated earlier that by the same logic you proved Dark Eldar get "five army wide special rules", Ultramarines also get five army wide special rules. You chose to ignore that, because "Marines are OP" is not the conclusion you chose to start with when you went on your hunt to collect evidence to back that up.
By your own admission "one rule" is a stupid standard of measurement, because all rules are obviously not made equal. Reroll Hit Rolls of 1 with Rapid Fire weapons while you're embarked on a transport with Fly, is not an equivalent rule to "everything in your army gets a 4++ instead of a 5++." It's just not good enough to stand on its own as a trait rule, so Ignores Cover is added on and +3" to movement for flying transports is added on.
And evidently, all that isn't even enough to make it matter much, because I rarely see drukhari detachments in competitive lists that aren't black heart.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2+2 equals five if you see a three and persist in pointing your finger at it and screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU THAT IS A TWO".
So 5 traits is better than 1,
unless that 1 trait is better
like how this one trait is superior to another trait
but this other trait comes with a better stratagem and warlord trait, so it's competitive
therefore the game is...IMbalanced?
Maybe, just maybe, the problem here is, you are evaluating a tiny, narrow factor as your evidence for relative balance because it confirms your preconceived conclusions and ignoring evidence that conflicts by the same criteria.
I demonstrated earlier that by the same logic you proved Dark Eldar get "five army wide special rules", Ultramarines also get five army wide special rules. You chose to ignore that, because "Marines are OP" is not the conclusion you chose to start with when you went on your hunt to collect evidence to back that up.
By your own admission "one rule" is a stupid standard of measurement, because all rules are obviously not made equal. Reroll Hit Rolls of 1 with Rapid Fire weapons while you're embarked on a transport with Fly, is not an equivalent rule to "everything in your army gets a 4++ instead of a 5++." It's just not good enough to stand on its own as a trait rule, so Ignores Cover is added on and +3" to movement for flying transports is added on.
And evidently, all that isn't even enough to make it matter much, because I rarely see drukhari detachments in competitive lists that aren't black heart.
Right.
For me I use Black Legion often. The trait NEVER comes up.
But I want access to Abaddon and now +1A to outnumber and extra WL traits stratagems.
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument. Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5. Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
2+2 equals five if you see a three and persist in pointing your finger at it and screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU THAT IS A TWO".
So 5 traits is better than 1,
unless that 1 trait is better
like how this one trait is superior to another trait
but this other trait comes with a better stratagem and warlord trait, so it's competitive
therefore the game is...IMbalanced?
Maybe, just maybe, the problem here is, you are evaluating a tiny, narrow factor as your evidence for relative balance because it confirms your preconceived conclusions and ignoring evidence that conflicts by the same criteria.
I demonstrated earlier that by the same logic you proved Dark Eldar get "five army wide special rules", Ultramarines also get five army wide special rules. You chose to ignore that, because "Marines are OP" is not the conclusion you chose to start with when you went on your hunt to collect evidence to back that up.
By your own admission "one rule" is a stupid standard of measurement, because all rules are obviously not made equal. Reroll Hit Rolls of 1 with Rapid Fire weapons while you're embarked on a transport with Fly, is not an equivalent rule to "everything in your army gets a 4++ instead of a 5++." It's just not good enough to stand on its own as a trait rule, so Ignores Cover is added on and +3" to movement for flying transports is added on.
And evidently, all that isn't even enough to make it matter much, because I rarely see drukhari detachments in competitive lists that aren't black heart.
I think you are misunderstanding where I am coming from. Theres too many have nots. There shouldn't be an army that has 3 trait abilities. There shouldn't be a -1 to hit trait. They should be very basic or they will never be balanced. We are to the point now where things are so insane. I ahve legit pointed out an army that gets 5 army traits compared to most getting 1 and you are defending it. That is how you make frog soup.
Also - THe ultramarines trait is probably the worst trait in the whole game...maybe black legion is worse. I mean...I can fall back with a redemptor dread and hit on 5's and not use my d6 damage power fist. Or I can fall back hitting on 4's not rerolling 3'swith a unit of intercessor vet when I could have stayed locked in and shot a bolt pistol and made 3 str 4 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling everything. The minus 1 ruins the trait. +1 LD is meaningless because I have ancient banner which makes me fearless. Ultramarines army trait is guilliman.
Darkstrider is 45 points and gives an aura that makes all tau sept ultramarines without -1 to hit. Not to mention a 2+ to hit marker light. The value of such an ability is pretty freaking low. It's so worthless no one takes dark strider.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/19 16:41:52
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument.
The problem with that is that not all traits are equal. And not all units who receive traits are equal.
Consider Iyanden's trait compared to Uthwe's trait. You're arguing that Iyanden's must be better, because it's more. But it's clearly inferior to Uthwe's. Of the CWE traits, the two that provide 2 benefits are worse than the 3 that provide 1 benefit - and that's not debated. So, clearly, number of buffs isn't all-important.
Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5.
Two items weighing 3/2lbs and 2 units weighing 2lbs equals 5lbs.
You're arguing 5 items of varying units is worth more than one item of another unit. Go ahead and see how 1mm, 1cm, 1m, 1 decimeter and 1 micrometer add up compared to a mile; turns out 5 of some things can be less than one of something else.
Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
First, your argument is that one subfaction is clearly more OP than what most people use, but nobody is smart enough to realize it - coupled with another faction is proven to be good because it gets used; two arguments that directly conflict with eachother.
Now, you're saying the better traits are counterbalanced by other elements, such that they're about equal - that's a change, but not an unreasonable view.
But you finish it off with pointing out that, because those are balanced against eachother, " In short - this game is very unbalanced."
2+2 equals five if you see a three and persist in pointing your finger at it and screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU THAT IS A TWO".
So 5 traits is better than 1,
unless that 1 trait is better
like how this one trait is superior to another trait
but this other trait comes with a better stratagem and warlord trait, so it's competitive
therefore the game is...IMbalanced?
Maybe, just maybe, the problem here is, you are evaluating a tiny, narrow factor as your evidence for relative balance because it confirms your preconceived conclusions and ignoring evidence that conflicts by the same criteria.
I demonstrated earlier that by the same logic you proved Dark Eldar get "five army wide special rules", Ultramarines also get five army wide special rules. You chose to ignore that, because "Marines are OP" is not the conclusion you chose to start with when you went on your hunt to collect evidence to back that up.
By your own admission "one rule" is a stupid standard of measurement, because all rules are obviously not made equal. Reroll Hit Rolls of 1 with Rapid Fire weapons while you're embarked on a transport with Fly, is not an equivalent rule to "everything in your army gets a 4++ instead of a 5++." It's just not good enough to stand on its own as a trait rule, so Ignores Cover is added on and +3" to movement for flying transports is added on.
And evidently, all that isn't even enough to make it matter much, because I rarely see drukhari detachments in competitive lists that aren't black heart.
Right.
For me I use Black Legion often. The trait NEVER comes up.
But I want access to Abaddon and now +1A to outnumber and extra WL traits stratagems.
I got the abadon model and built it jsut because its sweet. I have no idea how to use it. The army trait is so garbage I have no idea what to do with this army. Seems like Alpha legion or red corsairs is your only options.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument.
The problem with that is that not all traits are equal. And not all units who receive traits are equal.
Consider Iyanden's trait compared to Uthwe's trait. You're arguing that Iyanden's must be better, because it's more. But it's clearly inferior to Uthwe's. Of the CWE traits, the two that provide 2 benefits are worse than the 3 that provide 1 benefit - and that's not debated. So, clearly, number of buffs isn't all-important.
Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5.
Two items weighing 3/2lbs and 2 units weighing 2lbs equals 5lbs.
You're arguing 5 items of varying units is worth more than one item of another unit. Go ahead and see how 1mm, 1cm, 1m, 1 decimeter and 1 micrometer add up compared to a mile; turns out 5 of some things can be less than one of something else.
Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
First, your argument is that one subfaction is clearly more OP than what most people use, but nobody is smart enough to realize it - coupled with another faction is proven to be good because it gets used; two arguments that directly conflict with eachother.
Now, you're saying the better traits are counterbalanced by other elements, such that they're about equal - that's a change, but not an unreasonable view.
But you finish it off with pointing out that, because those are balanced against eachother, " In short - this game is very unbalanced."
How does that argument reach that conclusion?
Why are you being so obtuse? Clearly some traits are better than others. Not disputing that. However we have clear examples of some armies getting the exact same trait...plus more or worse.
Levithan nids have 6+ FNP IF they are within 6 inches of a synapse creature. Ulthwe just gets it all the time with no conditions. WTF? Why? Its the exact same trait. One doesn't need a condition if the other doesn't. If i cared enough to list examples just like this there would probably be 20 examples. NOT BALANCED.
What I want to see in this FAQ is a rebalancing of army traits.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument. Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5. Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
2+2 equals five if you see a three and persist in pointing your finger at it and screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU THAT IS A TWO".
So 5 traits is better than 1,
unless that 1 trait is better
like how this one trait is superior to another trait
but this other trait comes with a better stratagem and warlord trait, so it's competitive
therefore the game is...IMbalanced?
Maybe, just maybe, the problem here is, you are evaluating a tiny, narrow factor as your evidence for relative balance because it confirms your preconceived conclusions and ignoring evidence that conflicts by the same criteria.
I demonstrated earlier that by the same logic you proved Dark Eldar get "five army wide special rules", Ultramarines also get five army wide special rules. You chose to ignore that, because "Marines are OP" is not the conclusion you chose to start with when you went on your hunt to collect evidence to back that up.
By your own admission "one rule" is a stupid standard of measurement, because all rules are obviously not made equal. Reroll Hit Rolls of 1 with Rapid Fire weapons while you're embarked on a transport with Fly, is not an equivalent rule to "everything in your army gets a 4++ instead of a 5++." It's just not good enough to stand on its own as a trait rule, so Ignores Cover is added on and +3" to movement for flying transports is added on.
And evidently, all that isn't even enough to make it matter much, because I rarely see drukhari detachments in competitive lists that aren't black heart.
I think you are misunderstanding where I am coming from.
Please see if you can elaborate. You make very many questionable claims, and believing several of them *at the same time* is insane.
Theres too many have nots.
Sure. Fewer than there ever have been before. Far fewer than 6th or 7th. There will always be imbalance, but it could certainly be better
There shouldn't be an army that has 3 trait abilities. There shouldn't be a -1 to hit trait. They should be very basic or they will never be balanced. We are to the point now where things are so insane. I ahve legit pointed out an army that gets 5 army traits compared to most getting 1 and you are defending it. That is how you make frog soup.
He's speaking against the idea that we need to nerf stuff like Ultramarines, Iyanden and Saim-Hann to bring them *down* to the level of Alaitoc or Uthwe. Because that's what your argument is saying.
Also - THe ultramarines trait is probably the worst trait in the whole game...maybe black legion is worse. I mean...I can fall back with a redemptor dread and hit on 5's and not use my d6 damage power fist. Or I can fall back hitting on 4's not rerolling 3'swith a unit of intercessor vet when I could have stayed locked in and shot a bolt pistol and made 3 str 4 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling everything. The minus 1 ruins the trait. +1 LD is meaningless because I have ancient banner which makes me fearless. Ultramarines army trait is guilliman.
Here's the problem; you're claiming that *more* benefits is always better. Now you're claiming that something with more benefits is actually worse. Clearly, one of these isn't true.
Darkstrider is 45 points and gives an aura that makes all tau sept ultramarines without -1 to hit. Not to mention a 2+ to hit marker light. The value of such an ability is pretty freaking low. It's so worthless no one takes dark strider.
UltraMarines' basic HQ - the Captain - has an aura that makes all Marines Biel-Tan, but better. Biel-Tan isn't worthless.
I got the abadon model and built it jsut because its sweet. I have no idea how to use it. The army trait is so garbage I have no idea what to do with this army. Seems like Alpha legion or red corsairs is your only options.
That's because you overvalue -1 to hit and absolute CP. I'll still have a detachment of corsairs, but they're not the core of the army.
An autarch does the same thing as a captain. Yes...the Beiltan trait does suck.
More benefits is better...A conditional trait (requires you survive a round of combat) then gives a a shooting debuff and a +1 LD (worthless) is useless
I am saying that every trait should be balanced against every trait. They clearly aren't - you are arguing in bad faith. How exactly when I say there shouldnt be a -1 to hit trait am I arguing for traits to be brought down to it's level if I don't even think it should exist and is clearly the most busted trait in the game.
How are there fewer have nots right now? That seems like an unprovable statement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 17:02:03
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument.
The problem with that is that not all traits are equal. And not all units who receive traits are equal.
Consider Iyanden's trait compared to Uthwe's trait. You're arguing that Iyanden's must be better, because it's more. But it's clearly inferior to Uthwe's. Of the CWE traits, the two that provide 2 benefits are worse than the 3 that provide 1 benefit - and that's not debated. So, clearly, number of buffs isn't all-important.
Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5.
Two items weighing 3/2lbs and 2 units weighing 2lbs equals 5lbs.
You're arguing 5 items of varying units is worth more than one item of another unit. Go ahead and see how 1mm, 1cm, 1m, 1 decimeter and 1 micrometer add up compared to a mile; turns out 5 of some things can be less than one of something else.
Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
First, your argument is that one subfaction is clearly more OP than what most people use, but nobody is smart enough to realize it - coupled with another faction is proven to be good because it gets used; two arguments that directly conflict with eachother.
Now, you're saying the better traits are counterbalanced by other elements, such that they're about equal - that's a change, but not an unreasonable view.
But you finish it off with pointing out that, because those are balanced against eachother, " In short - this game is very unbalanced."
How does that argument reach that conclusion?
Why are you being so obtuse? Clearly some traits are better than others. Not disputing that.
What you're disputing is the idea that fewer, better traits could be better than more, worse traits.
However we have clear examples of some armies getting the exact same trait...plus more or worse.
In some cases it's poor balance. In other cases, different buffs on different armies have different impacts.
Imagine if Guard got Iyanden's trait - it'd be OP. But that trait is worthless for Iyanden.
I think that the tournament scene still undervalues ignore cover. I have no way to try to exploit ignore cover given my collection, though. I think people are a bit addicted to Vect and undervalue the benefits of flayed skull.
Xenomancers wrote: Dude....Orks have a 5++ invo save bubble that can be extended to 18" bubble with command points....Why would you take a 6++ save trait?
Evilsuns....+1 advance and charge moves AND ignore pentalies for advancing AND FREE reroll charges AND DAKKA DAKKA.
Uhhhh - I have to seriosuly question your motives if you don't think it is flat out absurd that a model get access to all these abilities for basically free. Like...Pick 1 - or 2....you dont get all 5.
The 6++ trait also comes with a salamanders reroll to hit wound and damage and obsec on all infantry.
And yet, amazingly, orks are not dominating all tournaments all the time. You can rage and cry about abilities all you like, it doesn't change that things cost things. Properly costed, who cares if a unit gets no army wide abilities or 10.
Guardsmen have NO army wide abilities besides their regiment trait our of the box. Nothing that doesn't require purchasing models to get it. And yet they are tournament dominant. Deffskulls have no less than 6 (if you count their trait as 3) and yet we've seen them finish like fifth in one tournament.
Like, argue from incredulity all you like, you can phrase any number of stupid things the same way.
"Ultramarines get rapid fire weapons at 24" AND fall back and shoot AND combat squads AND reroll failed morale AND +1LD? Come on maybe you get one of those abilities but not all five!!!1!"
It doesn't matter. Their gak costs points. Some of those abilities don't come up that often.
Orks are topping tournaments right now. In a lot of configurations. So many I can't really name them all. Evilsuns usually make up the core of the army. Badmoons usually for the lootas. Sometimes freebootas show up. I havn't seen deathskulls but they probably do show up some too. You are right though - deathskulls is salamanders trait plus one.
I thought they only topped at Adepticon? Didnt we establish that its a different game because its not ITC?
I am including not just major events here since orks came out. They did really well at ITC too. I mean...the best player in the game is playing them nonstop right now - it's a pretty good indicator.
So your argument is:
-Top players aren't running the best DE trait, because they're not as smart as you
-The best DE trait is the best because the army gets *4* traits!
-The Ork army trait with *5* traits is obviously OP - you can tell because Orkz using other traits are doing reasonably well.
-Top players are running Orkz, proving they're good.
I'm not sure where to start. Let's go with:
-Top players play CWE with traits that give *one* bonus, and almost never with either of the traits that give *two*.
-Throw in that CWE consistently does well at tournies - but almost exclusively with the one-benefit traits, almost never with the two-benefit traits.
I don't get how you can claim all this stuff at the same time with a straight face.
You are obviously wrong. 5 traits is better than 1 (some traits are just OP -1 to hits and sometimes when you combine 5 traits its OP too). That is my argument.
The problem with that is that not all traits are equal. And not all units who receive traits are equal.
Consider Iyanden's trait compared to Uthwe's trait. You're arguing that Iyanden's must be better, because it's more. But it's clearly inferior to Uthwe's. Of the CWE traits, the two that provide 2 benefits are worse than the 3 that provide 1 benefit - and that's not debated. So, clearly, number of buffs isn't all-important.
Sometimes on dakka I feel like 2+2 really does equal 5.
Two items weighing 3/2lbs and 2 units weighing 2lbs equals 5lbs.
You're arguing 5 items of varying units is worth more than one item of another unit. Go ahead and see how 1mm, 1cm, 1m, 1 decimeter and 1 micrometer add up compared to a mile; turns out 5 of some things can be less than one of something else.
Flayed skull is obviously superior to black heart but stratagems and warlord traits make it competitive with it. In short - this game is very unbalanced.
First, your argument is that one subfaction is clearly more OP than what most people use, but nobody is smart enough to realize it - coupled with another faction is proven to be good because it gets used; two arguments that directly conflict with eachother.
Now, you're saying the better traits are counterbalanced by other elements, such that they're about equal - that's a change, but not an unreasonable view.
But you finish it off with pointing out that, because those are balanced against eachother, " In short - this game is very unbalanced."
How does that argument reach that conclusion?
Why are you being so obtuse? Clearly some traits are better than others. Not disputing that. However we have clear examples of some armies getting the exact same trait...plus more or worse.
Levithan nids have 6+ FNP IF they are within 6 inches of a synapse creature. Ulthwe just gets it all the time with no conditions. WTF? Why? Its the exact same trait. One doesn't need a condition if the other doesn't. If i cared enough to list examples just like this there would probably be 20 examples. NOT BALANCED.
What I want to see in this FAQ is a rebalancing of army traits.
I have to say, I adore the little trump tweet thing you're doing here with the all caps last word, I hope you make that your thing.
Remember earlier in the thread how we talked about the black templars trait being trash on black templars and being good on khorne daemons? It's almost like different armies with different unit compositions use traits differently, and Tyranids PROBABLY have more units to take that feel no pain save than Craftworld armies.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Burnage wrote: I dunno if I agree that Troupes are that bad compared to Wyches - it depends what you're pitting them against. If I've not screwed up my math then some well equipped Players are much more effective against MEQ and TEQ than Wyches, which are in turn vastly more effective against GEQ.
They're not the best unit ever, but they're also hardly completely useless.
But thats were you are wrong, wyches deal more damage given equal points
This got me curious, so I ran the numbers. It's not as straightforward to answer as you might expect because Harlequins and Wychs have so many different bloody configurations, but I ran with approximately 100 points of each assuming a) no upgraded pistols on either squad, and b) no +1 to hit from Power from Pain. And assuming I haven't messed any math up somewhere, of course.
Against GEQ:
[spoiler]
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A + three Hydra 15.70
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A 15.70
Wyches + 2 A + three Hydra 15.36
Wyches + 2 A 14.67
Wyches + 1A + three Hydra 12.33
Wyches + 1 S + three Hydra 11.85
Wyches + 2 S + three Hydra 11.85
Wyches + 1 S 11.85
Wyches + 2 S 11.85
Wyches + 1 A 11.78
Frozen Stars (Caress) 11.11
Frozen Stars (Embrace) 11.11
Wyches + three Hydra 9.31
Frozen Stars (Kiss) 9.26
Harlequins (Caress) 8.89
Harlequins (Embrace) 8.89
Frozen Stars (Blade) 8.89
Wyches 8.89
Harlequins (Kiss) 7.41
Harlequins (Blade) 7.11
Against MEQ:
Spoiler:
Frozen Stars (Caress) 7.41
Frozen Stars (Embrace) 6.94
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A + three Hydra 6.67
Wyches + 2 S + three Hydra 6.37
Harlequins (Caress) 5.93
Wyches + 2 S 5.93
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A 5.89
Wyches + 2 A + three Hydra 5.81
Harlequins (Embrace) 5.56
Wyches + 1 S + three Hydra 5.03
Wyches + 2 A 4.89
Wyches + 1 A + three Hydra 4.67
Wyches + 1 S 4.44
Frozen Stars (Kiss) 4.17
Wyches + 1 A 3.93
Wyches + three Hydra 3.52
Harlequins (Kiss) 3.33
Frozen Stars (Blade) 2.96
Wyches 2.96
Harlequins (Blade) 2.37
Against TEQ:
Spoiler:
Frozen Stars (Caress) 5.56
Frozen Stars (Embrace) 5.56
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A + three Hydra 4.83
Frozen Stars (Kiss) 4.64
Wyches + 2 S + three Hydra 4.52
Harlequins (Caress) 4.44
Harlequins (Embrace) 4.44
Wyches + 2 A + three Hydra 4.30
Harlequins (Kiss) 3.71
Wyches + 1 S + three Hydra 3.64
Wyches + 1A + three Hydra 3.44
Wyches + 2 S 2.96
Wyches + 1 S + 1 A 2.94
Wyches + three Hydra 2.59
Wyches + 2 A 2.44
Wyches + 1 S 2.22
Wyches + 1 A 1.96
Frozen Stars (Blade) 1.48
Wyches 1.48
Harlequins (Blade) 1.19
So basic Harlequins definitely kind of suck in all scenarios, and against GEQ Wychs are the clearly dominant option... but Players with Caresses or Embraces don't seem that bad relatively against MEQ or TEQ? With that said, I'm still hoping that they get buffed from the FAQ with at least a revert to the flip belt change.
Thanks for running the math - that is obviously not a small task when considering all the different variations in potential loadouts for those squads! One other thing to keep in mind is that the Shardnet + Impaler loadout (which I consider to be pretty much mandatory to take at least one of in each squad) deals a flat 2 damage. That should actually help quite a bit when dealing with Primaris and TEQ type targets, which also typically have 2 wounds. Not sure exactly how easy it is to model that, but it's another small advantage to keep in mind when considering wyches over Harlequins.
When I have been running quins lately, it is typically either as an outrider with Shadowseer plus three units of haywire skyweavers alongside my DE or CWE, or a Patrol with a single unit of fusion quins in a Starweaver and a single large unit of skyweavers. I can kind of justify a single skyweaver full of players, especially as I tend to play more casually and thus can afford to waste about 100 points on a unit I like. Some opponents who are unfamiliar with the army still fall for the old Twilight Pathways double-move trick to get the Starweaver up field and blow up a vehicle on the first turn, too, so it can be a nice distraction carnifex that lets my fragile Kabal vehicles hang back unharmed, and Raiders full of Wyches move up unchalleged for a turn, while my opponent freaks out trying to blow up the Harlequins who just showed up in their lines on the first turn.
I agree that Harlequins need the old flip belt rules back, too. The "no fly in the assault phase" rule was intended to nerf things like smash captains and flying hive tyrants that had a relatively small footprint and have huge potential damage output. Harlequins were pretty much an unintended casualty of that rules change, and it hurt them a lot more than it hurt those other models, and they didn't deserve it because they weren't exactly dominating to begin with.
i feel like you also need to factor in somehow the fact that Harlequins have access to better buffs as well. Put wyches near their basic HQ and they're rerolling 1 to hit. Put harlequins near their basic HQ that costs the same amount and they're getting a full reroll to wound (and reroll 1 to hit if you used a stratagem on the troupe master at the beginning of the game)
They also have psykers that provide some much needed durability buffs as well as turn 1 charge capability, they advance and charge out of the box (if you set the wyches to Red Grief to make the mobility equal the wyches perform far worse in the comparison) and they have fall back and shoot+fight.
No Escape is a super great ability but its impact does scale down with the skill of the person playing the melee army, because you do have access to kidnapping an enemy model to prevent a fall back.
Dont forget a Troupe Master is 70pts base, and a Succubus is 20pts base, thats 2 more Wyches, Wyches also "can'' get better buffs +1 PFP chart, double Drugs, so they are hitting on 2+ and re-rolling 1's, they most likely wont miss (I think its /36 chance to miss), giving the 2 extra Wyches as well, Wyches still comes out on top.
Shadowseer and a TM next to Troupes can be strong, but paying that many points (125+80pts ish) can make 1-2 units -1/-2 to hit with 4++ and effective T4/T5 and yet still no one takes them its to many points for to few buffs to to few units.
Troupes needs Flip belts to work over other units in charge phase and 4pts cheaper (1pt more than Wyches)
Xenomancers wrote: [
Also - THe ultramarines trait is probably the worst trait in the whole game...maybe black legion is worse. I mean...I can fall back with a redemptor dread and hit on 5's and not use my d6 damage power fist. Or I can fall back hitting on 4's not rerolling 3'swith a unit of intercessor vet when I could have stayed locked in and shot a bolt pistol and made 3 str 4 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling everything. The minus 1 ruins the trait. +1 LD is meaningless because I have ancient banner which makes me fearless. Ultramarines army trait is guilliman.
Darkstrider is 45 points and gives an aura that makes all tau sept ultramarines without -1 to hit. Not to mention a 2+ to hit marker light. The value of such an ability is pretty freaking low. It's so worthless no one takes dark strider.
I see your ultramarines trait claim and raise you word bearers.
HAHA - forgot about them. Yes you got me. THat is totally the worst.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: HAHA - forgot about them. Yes you got me. THat is totally the worst.
Don't forget about Graia!
It's a 6++ FNP trait...
...but it only works on your last wound...
and if all the CHARACTER models in your army die, nothing in your army can ever fall back ever again.
But wait, that's three rules! It must be OP!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I didn't think I needed to specify on this but...All the rules flayed skull + power from pain get are good or at the very least - they are other army traits.
Conditional rules that make your rule worse than other armies trait with no conditions (just like my Levi/ulthwe comparison) only prove my point. Traits aren't balanced. Its the first place to start when balancing this game IMO. Because they are included in the base cost of everything.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I despise the current detachment rules. No... what I really despise is this dependency to maximize the CP via detachment so that you can pay for strategems, relics, field commanders, specialist detachments.
I actually miss the old formations in the previous editions and I didn't think they were broken. At least it was straightforward.
Xenomancers wrote: I didn't think I needed to specify on this but...All the rules flayed skull + power from pain get are good or at the very least - they are other army traits.
Conditional rules that make your rule worse than other armies trait with no conditions (just like my Levi/ulthwe comparison) only prove my point. Traits aren't balanced. Its the first place to start when balancing this game IMO. Because they are included in the base cost of everything.
I agree with your broad point that there's an imbalance between subfactions, but it's not due to traits alone. You need to look at the whole package - Ultramarines might have a weak Chapter Trait, but getting access to Gulliman is a huge advantage. Black Heart have a pretty lackluster trait but their relic and stratagem are both incredible.
It's not as simple as "this trait is stronger than this other trait, therefore this subfaction is better".
15k+
Beastmen 10k