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Or at the very least "always hit on natural 6s regardless of modifiers". Orks have that standard, but also general extra hits, so they would still have something "unique" even if hitting on 6s was standard for everyone.
I've got my daily dose of disappointment on this FAQ today. I check every day around this time, and if is isn't up, it isn't today.
Even with it being a "bank holiday" in the UK, it could still have been set as an automated post. I'd be surprised if the FAQ wasn't ready to be posted yet
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I get what your going for on the 6's always hit, but untill GW stop charging extra points for the same weapons in BS 3 armies over BS 4 armies, hitting on 6's is more beneficial to low BS skill armies while the armies paying a points premium for better BS skill get less from said rule.
They should just be counts as in cover if they haven't moved, additional plus 1 to cover, at the end of the day though isn't as broken as -2 to hit stacking but GW might still have issues giving out 1+ save marines, +3 in cover rangers & scouts for 1+ Sv's.
1+ Sv isn't a problem, because if you roll a , you still die.
Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
I would prefer more of these than a continuous rise in invulns any day.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
-1 for that army is fine. It that the ones that can do this also have ways to up that to -2 on most things and -3 on a further key unit or two.
I'd be ok with GW making stacking past -2 a no-go. But you HAVE to let some stacking happen, otherwise Heavy Weapons start to no longer have a -1
But I still think the best change is to make -1 army Traits be a cover bonus instead.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
-1 for that army is fine. It that the ones that can do this also have ways to up that to -2 on most things and -3 on a further key unit or two.
I'd be ok with GW making stacking past -2 a no-go. But you HAVE to let some stacking happen, otherwise Heavy Weapons start to no longer have a -1
But I still think the best change is to make -1 army Traits be a cover bonus instead.
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It's simple really. Make it so that by default negative modifiers to hit don't stack, but have certain specific ones explicitly override that rule. Heavy Weapons when moving would be such an exception, as would be relics that affect a single character and other very limited affects. Army wide rules or auras would not stack though.
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
I would prefer more of these than a continuous rise in invulns any day.
No you get rid of the broken army traits and then prove to GW that 40k 8th edition is way too lethal.
Becuase unless your playing a -1 to hit or horde list your still loosing way to much to be able to fight past turn 3.
Even knight list dies fairly quickly outside the Guard, Castellen CP , Strategum stacking combo.
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
Even that -2 flat is a thing, that your defensive about, is just soo wrong in a d6 system, thats already taken away 40% of your to hit rolls as being viable. That any heavy weapons take a further -1 to hit to move into range or line of sight means your now at -3.
Tau and Guard can't hit with a -3, marine's are on 6's, if you want to keep negative to hit modifiers stacking you need to change to a D12 system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 18:25:45
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
Even that -2 flat is a thing, that your defensive about, is just soo wrong in a d6 system, thats already taken away 40% of your to hit rolls as being viable. That any heavy weapons take a further -1 to hit to move into range or line of sight means your now at -3.
Tau and Guard can't hit with a -3, marine's are on 6's, if you want to keep negative to hit modifiers stacking you need to change to a D12 system.
Which armies have a flat -2? None.
Now, CWE gets to -2 too easily on many units (Rangers, Flyers, etc), and it's far too powerful. I certainly agree with those. But they're hardly dominating the meta. CWE Airwing is present, but only one of many contenders. Ranger Spam isn't as big a thing anymore, as screens aren't as important (although they rarely had -2 as screens - as they'd ususally be within 12" of the firer).
The guard being the imperiums whore, and the castellan being an absolute tumor. Aledari's doom should not be effecting Drukhari's units, and allies should be choked just like in the GSC book in terms of Brood Brothers. I do believe chapter tactics should be effecting everything in a persons army, and not be limited(Space marines, CSM, etc). They should change the fly rule back, they only messed with it to sell more Knights, and guard. Make slaanesh daemons not terrible. Make Grey Knights no longer worthless( 1 MW smites even on their characters? What a joke.). Chaos Cultists should NOT be 5 points, guard should be. Oblits should be 115 pts each when a single one has the capacity to one shot Drukhari flyers a turn. Anyway, I just hope the FAQ only further betters the hobby!
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
That's not what I meant and you know it. Even hitting on 5s is basically doom for marines. Marines can basically never do what you describe to Eldar in the first place.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 18:59:28
The stacking to hit is actually pretty far down my list of peeves, actually. I mean it's bad, but is it castellan bad? Or dissy cannon bad? I don't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 19:03:16
I just noticed on the Warhammer Community site that the Survey is "1 day left", which leads into my theory that they may have been waiting on that to close before dropping the FAQ.
Wouldn't want the Survey results skewed by knee-jerk reactions to the FAQ.
My fingers are so crossed for tomorrow to be the day that said fingers might snap off!
Yes! Give them 4++ and more wounds. Everything else seems fine.
Uhhh...So I guess tzeentch daemons will all have to go to 3++ then? Heck no.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It‘d be much better to give greater Daemons a -1 to hit vs. shooting or even an inverse of Leman Russ-style double shooting rule that they only take half the hits or something like that.
Also -1 activation strats to counter the deluge of double shooting, double fighting, etc.. need to be in every army.
I prefer more wounds to buff big things, and not Invulnerable saves. More wounds make antitank weaponry with d6 damage and high AP much more usefull agaisnt their intended target, but overall they are much more resilient if you give them 30-50% more wounds.
If you just give more and more invul saves then you end with Autocannons being the best antitank weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 20:26:13
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Regarding -1 to hit, there are a couple of things I would like to see before any more of it would be added to the game.
The first thing is to clean up how it interacts with rerolls. Since the rerolls happen first, there will be dice that you know will fail but can't reroll since they don't count as a fail until the -1. I want the reroll to be the dominant effect. There are some units that get around this due to the wording, but I want reroll misses and reroll 1's to take hit modifiers into account.
The other thing is to simply make 6's an auto hit. While I'm fine with limiting hit modifiers (say to -2 as said above), I would still like to make sure they cant make something essentially invincible.
-1 to hit is actually one of the things I've suggested giving to Grey knights (aegis armor), and I wouldn't mind them having it as long as the above changes are made.
That won’t happen. Modifiers after rerolls is precisely to stop things like -1 to hit making reroll 1s *more* effective.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
6s always hitting is already baked into the Cities of Death rules and those terrain rules are way better than the core ones.
I'd agree they need to put some more thought into how modifiers and re-rolls interact though. Pretty much everything that specifies a target number outside of actual BS/WS checks and armor saves should be on an "unmodified X", it would be a lot cleaner that way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 23:55:08
The Newman wrote: 6s always hitting is already baked into the Cities of Death rules and those terrain rules are way better than the core ones.
I'd agree they need to put some more thought into how modifiers and re-rolls interact though. Pretty much everything that specifies a target number outside of actual BS/WS checks and armor saves should be on an "unmodified X", it would be a lot cleaner that way.
But that would also be unnecessarily limiting.
You know, sometimes synergies between units and buffs are intended
The problem with both minuses to hit and invul inflation is that you are upping the chance of you or your opponent doing nothing. This increases the importance of luck over rational decision making. Which for me at least isn't fun.
I like to look back on games and think "did I play well, or did I play badly" about the result. What can I do differently next time? Which is largely down to decisions. If the game just comes down to "did you roll a disproportionate number of 5 & 6s or a disproportionate number of 1 and 2s" then that illusion of this is gone.
Luck always matters in a dice game, but its a bit of a tightrope. Its one of the reasons I find assault armies to be cool - but also very frustrating. Those games where your opponent rolls hot on overwatch, and you can never managed more than a 5" charge, kind of suck.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
I would prefer more of these than a continuous rise in invulns any day.
No you get rid of the broken army traits and then prove to GW that 40k 8th edition is way too lethal.
Becuase unless your playing a -1 to hit or horde list your still loosing way to much to be able to fight past turn 3.
Even knight list dies fairly quickly outside the Guard, Castellen CP , Strategum stacking combo.
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
Even that -2 flat is a thing, that your defensive about, is just soo wrong in a d6 system, thats already taken away 40% of your to hit rolls as being viable. That any heavy weapons take a further -1 to hit to move into range or line of sight means your now at -3.
Tau and Guard can't hit with a -3, marine's are on 6's, if you want to keep negative to hit modifiers stacking you need to change to a D12 system.
Even with always hitting on 6s, the minus to hit modifiers are pretty unfun. It slowly turns into fishing for 6s which results into weight of fire being more important. So more dice are rolled while accomplishing less. Same exact problem with invulns, but you are fishing for 1s/2s instead of 6s. Although I would rather see buffs to things so they counter -1 to hit and invulns instead of nerfs. Something like half range meltaguns ignore invuln saves instead of rolling 2 damage dice. Anything other than "just throw more dice" would be much better.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, -1, -2 armies are one of the very few armies out there that can at least attempt to survive in the super-lethal 40k we have today, outside of hordes or Knights.
We need a lot more of those armies, not less.
I would prefer more of these than a continuous rise in invulns any day.
No you get rid of the broken army traits and then prove to GW that 40k 8th edition is way too lethal.
Becuase unless your playing a -1 to hit or horde list your still loosing way to much to be able to fight past turn 3.
Even knight list dies fairly quickly outside the Guard, Castellen CP , Strategum stacking combo.
It means Marines are shooting at something with a -3 to hit. Which means nothing within 24" of them has any less. Which means there is, at most, *two* enemy units within a 24" bubble. Which means there ain't a lot left for them to fight.
Unless you're fighting one of those -3-to-hit army-wide CWE builds. In which case you're playing made up rules.
Even that -2 flat is a thing, that your defensive about, is just soo wrong in a d6 system, thats already taken away 40% of your to hit rolls as being viable. That any heavy weapons take a further -1 to hit to move into range or line of sight means your now at -3.
Tau and Guard can't hit with a -3, marine's are on 6's, if you want to keep negative to hit modifiers stacking you need to change to a D12 system.
Even with always hitting on 6s, the minus to hit modifiers are pretty unfun. It slowly turns into fishing for 6s which results into weight of fire being more important. So more dice are rolled while accomplishing less. Same exact problem with invulns, but you are fishing for 1s/2s instead of 6s. Although I would rather see buffs to things so they counter -1 to hit and invulns instead of nerfs. Something like half range meltaguns ignore invuln saves instead of rolling 2 damage dice. Anything other than "just throw more dice" would be much better.
I still think Melta should be buffed to S9 and should automatically cause a second wound to anything with the VEHICLE keyword on a 2+ to hit.
I'm actually ok with the current Meltagun profile, they're just too expensive. So is the Gravgun. ...so are the Grav Cannon, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hurricane Bolter, LasTalon, Autobolter, Stalker Bolt Rifle, Fragstorm Launcher, and Heavy and Assault Plasma Incinerators. And Tac Marines, Hellblasters, and Reivers, probably.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 15:00:55
I like the Meltagun profile too and just feel like it should be cheaper than a Plasmagun. Multimelta, otoh, needs 2 shots. It has 2 friggin barrels for crying out load.
Galef wrote: I like the Meltagun profile too and just feel like it should be cheaper than a Plasmagun. Multimelta, otoh, needs 2 shots. It has 2 friggin barrels for crying out load.
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What if both barrels are firing at the same time to make a single, combined beam? Maybe that's why it has one shot?
What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
, you still die.
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