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Uhhh...This is the game. It's how it's played. Heck my knight lance generates 6 CP.
If it wasn't loyal 32 it would just be admec
or if it wasn't that
It would be the next cheapest thing.
Trust me - there are no mono armies in competitive play. Cept orks and tau. Because cheap troops are OP and only certain armies have them. Fix the game. Don't hate the players.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I cant believe the last 3 pages of this have been on ways to reduce durability. What nonsense.
This is the killiest edition ever made, with more armies getting tabled that ever before and your trying to reduce invun saves?
Go back under your bridges trolls (no real offence, but need to wake some people up here).
If a weapon is underperforming againgst other weapons, either the weaker weapon needs a points drop, or the stronger weapons need an increase, whichever is easier to do.
ADD IN: Honestly the whole problem was the reduced points cost on many weapons to begin with. 2 point storm shields would never have been needed if AP-3 wasn't so cheap and easy to spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 15:55:09
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Reemule wrote: Lets really discuss all the cost in a Castellan getting 3+.
A detachment.
604 points.
1 CP pre game to give the Castellan a Warlord Trait to have the 4++
3 CP each time you want to have a 3++ in game for a shooting phase.
As a pure knight player at times, the Castellan is already useless. I wish I hadn't bought the model and saved the money for a Cerastus knight. And then we have the well intention-ed but poorly informed that want to make it worse.
Yeah no - you are doing it wrong. Make the Castellan your warlord and give him the free relic plasma cannon. Take 2 armigers if you must to complete the detachment and for a knight lance and get army traits. Or If you must. Take 2 more knights. You also have to be smart about spending 3 CP to go to 3++. Realistically they can't kill your knight even with a 4++ so bait them into shooting it take some damage on it. Then fight at full power for 1 Freaking CP. At this point you've already won. No army can handle 2 turns of full knight firepower if they don't kill something. Because turn 2-3 you have 3 titans in CC and being unstoppable. Smart players don't even shoot the Castellan - it's a waste.
How can you say something so absurd as to say a Castellan is useless? Apart from Mortarian - the only model I'd never bring to a casual game.
Wait you think a 4++ and a turn of fighting at full power with a knight is a win? Man, your anti knight prejudges is on full display. Rein in your bias a little and work on gaining some perspective, to have some ability to see the middle.
The castellan is a powerful piece. So is all the knights. And when I have 9 CP spending 1/3rd my total to RIS one, isn't smart, or effective, when I can RIS others for a single CP.
I play knights dude.
I've never lost with this list. I think it's 12-0 right now and won 3 locals. Tabled every single opponent. I have no idea why I didn't just bring this to LVO. I think I was concerned about psychic powers.
I'm not bragging btw. I'm just saying I feel bad beating people with the Castellan and with knights in general. You are sitting here calling it useless. I find it absolutely absurd. It's almost as bad as Eldar defending SS all edition.
Congratulations your balancing a codex based upon your use a a soup list.
Take away the 32 douche bags and then see how OP that list feels.
As much as I hate to say this, I think allies are the problem and they need to go. Mono codex ONLY this edition. If you want allies, go to Narrative or Open. But for matched play, total embargo. Then we can re-balance Knights as a mono-codex and get them to a spot where they can still be played, but not the defining list of the entire meta.
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh...This is the game. It's how it's played. Heck my knight lance generates 6 CP.
If it wasn't loyal 32 it would just be admec
or if it wasn't that
It would be the next cheapest thing.
Trust me - there are no mono armies in competitive play. Cept orks and tau. Because cheap troops are OP and only certain armies have them. Fix the game. Don't hate the players.
Players can choose to not take advantage of a broken situation. You wouldn't take advantage of a grieving friend in real life to get what you want, so why do it in other aspects?
Martel732 wrote: You have more faith than I do. I'm worried death beam will be permanent. I mean Castellans have scared me off big stuff, but it sucks to get say, Dante death beamed. It's a cheap power and adds to the misery of 8th ed.
Oblitz erase everything typically hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's. Quite often ignoring invuns. Nothing is safe but cheap troops and sometimes my phobos libby with +2 to saves in cover and they roll a 1 for AP.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You can disagree, but I don't see BA/GK soup doing much. So how is soup the problem?
Or is it the infinite cheapo dum dums that come from the IG codex that turn off assault and provide infinite CP?
If you kill soup, it will just be Vostroyan Baneblades backed up by the stupid FW buff tank with primaris psyker buffs on it. Also protected by infinte dum dums that cost nothing and never die.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/26 15:57:06
Reemule wrote: Lets really discuss all the cost in a Castellan getting 3+.
A detachment.
604 points.
1 CP pre game to give the Castellan a Warlord Trait to have the 4++
3 CP each time you want to have a 3++ in game for a shooting phase.
As a pure knight player at times, the Castellan is already useless. I wish I hadn't bought the model and saved the money for a Cerastus knight. And then we have the well intention-ed but poorly informed that want to make it worse.
Yeah no - you are doing it wrong. Make the Castellan your warlord and give him the free relic plasma cannon. Take 2 armigers if you must to complete the detachment and for a knight lance and get army traits. Or If you must. Take 2 more knights. You also have to be smart about spending 3 CP to go to 3++. Realistically they can't kill your knight even with a 4++ so bait them into shooting it take some damage on it. Then fight at full power for 1 Freaking CP. At this point you've already won. No army can handle 2 turns of full knight firepower if they don't kill something. Because turn 2-3 you have 3 titans in CC and being unstoppable. Smart players don't even shoot the Castellan - it's a waste.
How can you say something so absurd as to say a Castellan is useless? Apart from Mortarian - the only model I'd never bring to a casual game.
Wait you think a 4++ and a turn of fighting at full power with a knight is a win? Man, your anti knight prejudges is on full display. Rein in your bias a little and work on gaining some perspective, to have some ability to see the middle.
The castellan is a powerful piece. So is all the knights. And when I have 9 CP spending 1/3rd my total to RIS one, isn't smart, or effective, when I can RIS others for a single CP.
I play knights dude.
I've never lost with this list. I think it's 12-0 right now and won 3 locals. Tabled every single opponent. I have no idea why I didn't just bring this to LVO. I think I was concerned about psychic powers.
I'm not bragging btw. I'm just saying I feel bad beating people with the Castellan and with knights in general. You are sitting here calling it useless. I find it absolutely absurd. It's almost as bad as Eldar defending SS all edition.
You play soup, call it knights, and abuse the CP mechanic, and then conflate that with Castellan is good all the time is what you meant to say?
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh...This is the game. It's how it's played. Heck my knight lance generates 6 CP.
If it wasn't loyal 32 it would just be admec
or if it wasn't that
It would be the next cheapest thing.
Trust me - there are no mono armies in competitive play. Cept orks and tau. Because cheap troops are OP and only certain armies have them. Fix the game. Don't hate the players.
None of those are a knight list, it's a soup list.
It's like complaining that thousand sons are OP, then bringing a list full of poxwalker spam and the a Supreme comand of ariman and 2 deamon prices, that's not a thousand sons list.
Your reducting the game to play these units from 5 codex's for imperial this list for choas and casual play 40k gets totally destroyed to preserve the cheesest soup abominations.
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh...This is the game. It's how it's played. Heck my knight lance generates 6 CP.
If it wasn't loyal 32 it would just be admec
or if it wasn't that
It would be the next cheapest thing.
Trust me - there are no mono armies in competitive play. Cept orks and tau. Because cheap troops are OP and only certain armies have them. Fix the game. Don't hate the players.
Players can choose to not take advantage of a broken situation. You wouldn't take advantage of a grieving friend in real life to get what you want, so why do it in other aspects?
I don't bring this list against my friends. Unless they want to play a cutthroat game. In which case they are also going to abuse the rules as much as they can. The problem is the rules. Every unit in that army is OP. That is why it wins a lot.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: You have more faith than I do. I'm worried death beam will be permanent. I mean Castellans have scared me off big stuff, but it sucks to get say, Dante death beamed. It's a cheap power and adds to the misery of 8th ed.
Oblitz erase everything typically hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's. Quite often ignoring invuns. Nothing is safe but cheap troops and sometimes my phobos libby with +2 to saves in cover and they roll a 1 for AP.
Lol, not always. Prescience is WC 7 with no re-rolls outside of command points. They move 4 inches and have a 24inch threat range outside of DS or starting on the table. If you advance, they're hitting on 3+ with the power, 4+ without. In addition, S6 + D3 can be S7, AP can be -1 DMG can be 1. When this happens, I notice a huge drop in effectiveness of the unit. Over charged plasma kills them ever time, a hellblaster squad in rapid will knock the whole three man unit down to 1 remaining wound, effectively neutering the entire unit. If you aren't playing Alpha Legion, then you're legion traits for the unit are largely useless.
They're not as broken as people like to claim unless you get off the full combo works on them.
Reemule wrote: Lets really discuss all the cost in a Castellan getting 3+.
A detachment.
604 points.
1 CP pre game to give the Castellan a Warlord Trait to have the 4++
3 CP each time you want to have a 3++ in game for a shooting phase.
As a pure knight player at times, the Castellan is already useless. I wish I hadn't bought the model and saved the money for a Cerastus knight. And then we have the well intention-ed but poorly informed that want to make it worse.
Yeah no - you are doing it wrong. Make the Castellan your warlord and give him the free relic plasma cannon. Take 2 armigers if you must to complete the detachment and for a knight lance and get army traits. Or If you must. Take 2 more knights. You also have to be smart about spending 3 CP to go to 3++. Realistically they can't kill your knight even with a 4++ so bait them into shooting it take some damage on it. Then fight at full power for 1 Freaking CP. At this point you've already won. No army can handle 2 turns of full knight firepower if they don't kill something. Because turn 2-3 you have 3 titans in CC and being unstoppable. Smart players don't even shoot the Castellan - it's a waste.
How can you say something so absurd as to say a Castellan is useless? Apart from Mortarian - the only model I'd never bring to a casual game.
Wait you think a 4++ and a turn of fighting at full power with a knight is a win? Man, your anti knight prejudges is on full display. Rein in your bias a little and work on gaining some perspective, to have some ability to see the middle.
The castellan is a powerful piece. So is all the knights. And when I have 9 CP spending 1/3rd my total to RIS one, isn't smart, or effective, when I can RIS others for a single CP.
I play knights dude.
I've never lost with this list. I think it's 12-0 right now and won 3 locals. Tabled every single opponent. I have no idea why I didn't just bring this to LVO. I think I was concerned about psychic powers.
I'm not bragging btw. I'm just saying I feel bad beating people with the Castellan and with knights in general. You are sitting here calling it useless. I find it absolutely absurd. It's almost as bad as Eldar defending SS all edition.
You play soup, call it knights, and abuse the CP mechanic, and then conflate that with Castellan is good all the time is what you meant to say?
The list has 1400 points of knights.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh...This is the game. It's how it's played. Heck my knight lance generates 6 CP.
If it wasn't loyal 32 it would just be admec
or if it wasn't that
It would be the next cheapest thing.
Trust me - there are no mono armies in competitive play. Cept orks and tau. Because cheap troops are OP and only certain armies have them. Fix the game. Don't hate the players.
Players can choose to not take advantage of a broken situation. You wouldn't take advantage of a grieving friend in real life to get what you want, so why do it in other aspects?
I don't bring this list against my friends. Unless they want to play a cutthroat game. In which case they are also going to abuse the rules as much as they can. The problem is the rules. Every unit in that army is OP. That is why it wins a lot.
Now I do not disagree with you on this point. I've often been a proponent of the "remember folks, you get to choose who you play games with" mantra. However, we should choose to be better when we're playing, I've been running my oblits for example at 115 ppm.
I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
That is nice of you. You certainly can play them at 65 and no one can say a dang thing. It's like a 50/50 around here as to how people do it. Right now I'm just avoiding competitive play and having much more fun casual games and trying out my new space marine units.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: That is nice of you. You certainly can play them at 65 and no one can say a dang thing. It's like a 50/50 around here as to how people do it. Right now I'm just avoiding competitive play and having much more fun casual games and trying out my new space marine units.
I've never lost with this list. I think it's 12-0 right now and won 3 locals. Tabled every single opponent. I have no idea why I didn't just bring this to LVO. [...]
[...]
You
-Play a list you've never lost with
-Are 12-0
-Won 3 tournaments
-Tabled every opponent
-*Avoid Competitive games*
-*Play casual*
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
He's got 30 douche bags to make the castellen immune to assualt.
Hes got 8 additional CP and CP regenerate via Guilliman.
A Castellen in a pure knights list maxes out realistically at 9CP assuming you do nothing else in terms of warlord traits and relics, and your be spending atleast 2CP on those, thats 3 rotate ions on a castellen with nothing else strategums wise for the entire game with the other trait and relic it's 2 phases of rotate.
Those extra 8CP and regen buy you another 3 turns.
Simply put it couldn't be less relevant if he'd posted a pure Tau list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 16:07:14
Martel732 wrote: You can disagree, but I don't see BA/GK soup doing much. So how is soup the problem?
Or is it the infinite cheapo dum dums that come from the IG codex that turn off assault and provide infinite CP?
If you kill soup, it will just be Vostroyan Baneblades backed up by the stupid FW buff tank with primaris psyker buffs on it. Also protected by infinte dum dums that cost nothing and never die.
You think it'd be worth it to give up Catachan on your whole army just to get a Vostroyan baneblade?
Regardless, I think you're right on one point and purposefully ignoring another.
1) it is definitely correct that removing soup would result in less faction diversity, as factions that are currently only usable with supplemental allies like BA, GK, Chaos armies, Knights and CWE would probably exit stage left in favor of those armies that are strong without allies like Guard, Drukhari, Tau, Orks and GSC. There would be some shuffling if you also got rid of Subfaction Souping within a detachment that would largely also result in less diversity, as people would decide which buffs like Black Heart and Catachan were just too good to give up, and which like possibly Evil Sunz just didn't provide enough utility for the whole army to be run with them.
2) It is also definitely correct that there are certain factions and bugbear units people complain about who are only as dominant as they are because of supplemental benefits provided from other codexes, like Allied CWE doom, CPs from feeder detachments, and screening/etc that models like Castellans ordinarily would not have access to.
So while I definitely agree that just removing soup would not result in a better balanced game and would in fact do the opposite, I do think there are some unique problems caused by soup that should be addressed as such rather than punishing units that would definitely not be doing what they could do with the benefits soup provide. Cough cough, how are your BA captains feeling in your mono-BA army?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: You can disagree, but I don't see BA/GK soup doing much. So how is soup the problem?
Or is it the infinite cheapo dum dums that come from the IG codex that turn off assault and provide infinite CP?
If you kill soup, it will just be Vostroyan Baneblades backed up by the stupid FW buff tank with primaris psyker buffs on it. Also protected by infinte dum dums that cost nothing and never die.
You think it'd be worth it to give up Catachan on your whole army just to get a Vostroyan baneblade?
Regardless, I think you're right on one point and purposefully ignoring another.
1) it is definitely correct that removing soup would result in less faction diversity, as factions that are currently only usable with supplemental allies like BA, GK, Chaos armies, Knights and CWE would probably exit stage left in favor of those armies that are strong without allies like Guard, Drukhari, Tau, Orks and GSC. There would be some shuffling if you also got rid of Subfaction Souping within a detachment that would largely also result in less diversity, as people would decide which buffs like Black Heart and Catachan were just too good to give up, and which like possibly Evil Sunz just didn't provide enough utility for the whole army to be run with them.
2) It is also definitely correct that there are certain factions and bugbear units people complain about who are only as dominant as they are because of supplemental benefits provided from other codexes, like Allied CWE doom, CPs from feeder detachments, and screening/etc that models like Castellans ordinarily would not have access to.
So while I definitely agree that just removing soup would not result in a better balanced game and would in fact do the opposite, I do think there are some unique problems caused by soup that should be addressed as such rather than punishing units that would definitely not be doing what they could do with the benefits soup provide. Cough cough, how are your BA captains feeling in your mono-BA army?
Just fine, actually. I've stopped trying to use them as living torpedoes. But the BA units just suck in general.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 16:09:34
Martel732 wrote: Who says it would be whole army? Multiple detachments of different regiments. All the sacrificial dum dums could be catachans.
I was honestly considering deleting that section of the post, because I knew it'd be like dangling a shiny object in front of a cat before trying to make my actual point. Sorry about that.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
So a Castellan is OP in a pure-Knight list because pure lists can't compete with soup lists, and Castellans are too good in Soup lists?
In other news, mono-Marines are OP because they can't win against CWE, so the player drops Marines and takes CWE instead, and CWE is OP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 16:11:09
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
Wow don't even know the codex knights can't break 12CP under 2k period
Xenomancers wrote: Whats your list? I mean - I'm beating tournament lists with it. You know tyranis knights come back to life right? So does Gman. It's a zombie list really. The only thing that scares it is CC bombs and 75% of the time even if they kill me I get back up and fight at full power. Gman gives all the knights reroll 1's too with a 12" aura.
GSC would absolutely pwn this but that is mostly because GSC powers are about to get nerfed because they are also absurd.
Aeldari, Seer council CC bomb, Skyweavers with Haywire and venoms with shredder toting kabalites inside. I've played against tyranis. I had a game against a list similar to yours recently, not exactly the same (he had 2 gallants and a few more guard). I don't play ITC, cause I play int the UK tournament scene, but I doubt it would make much difference in this match up.
I'll give a quick summary of the matchup.
Knights went first, Castellan opened up on the Skyweavers (the council was out of LoS). I used LFR (naturally) and he managed to kill 4 Skyweavers and did 1 mortal to himself, which was pretty good for a castellan shooting into a -2 to hit 4++ I thought. The gallants moved up to try to get into combat, the infantry screened out the castellan.
On my turn I buffed up the Council and moved it out also doing about 5 wounds to a galllant with Smite. The venoms moved up and between those, their cargo and the Death Jesters I wiped all the infantry except a couple of characters out of los. The Council, skyweavers and accompanying characters shot the wounded gallant (he used RIS, I had doomed it), dropping it to 3 wounds remaining. The Council and Autarch then charged the other Gallant (they were ~18" apart), this second Gallant was Jinxed, they blew up the Gallant. My opponent tried to get it back up and I used Vect.
On the Knight turn 2, he shot everything from the castellan into the council, but only killed 2 and did 2 more mortal wounds to himself (council had -2 to hit with LFR, 3++, 5+++). The wounded gallant wrecked 2 venoms, as the council was too far away to charge.
On my turn the council killed the Castellan, Doom, Jinx, shoot+charge and the skyweavers put down the gallant. I was on all the objectives and he only had rowboat left. So he conceded.
Martel732 wrote: Who says it would be whole army? Multiple detachments of different regiments. All the sacrificial dum dums could be catachans.
I was honestly considering deleting that section of the post, because I knew it'd be like dangling a shiny object in front of a cat before trying to make my actual point. Sorry about that.
It's okay. It's a good reminder of how powerful that codex is.
Reemule wrote: Lets really discuss all the cost in a Castellan getting 3+.
A detachment.
604 points.
1 CP pre game to give the Castellan a Warlord Trait to have the 4++
3 CP each time you want to have a 3++ in game for a shooting phase.
As a pure knight player at times, the Castellan is already useless. I wish I hadn't bought the model and saved the money for a Cerastus knight. And then we have the well intention-ed but poorly informed that want to make it worse.
Yeah no - you are doing it wrong. Make the Castellan your warlord and give him the free relic plasma cannon. Take 2 armigers if you must to complete the detachment and for a knight lance and get army traits. Or If you must. Take 2 more knights. You also have to be smart about spending 3 CP to go to 3++. Realistically they can't kill your knight even with a 4++ so bait them into shooting it take some damage on it. Then fight at full power for 1 Freaking CP. At this point you've already won. No army can handle 2 turns of full knight firepower if they don't kill something. Because turn 2-3 you have 3 titans in CC and being unstoppable. Smart players don't even shoot the Castellan - it's a waste.
How can you say something so absurd as to say a Castellan is useless? Apart from Mortarian - the only model I'd never bring to a casual game.
Wait you think a 4++ and a turn of fighting at full power with a knight is a win? Man, your anti knight prejudges is on full display. Rein in your bias a little and work on gaining some perspective, to have some ability to see the middle.
The castellan is a powerful piece. So is all the knights. And when I have 9 CP spending 1/3rd my total to RIS one, isn't smart, or effective, when I can RIS others for a single CP.
I play knights dude.
I've never lost with this list. I think it's 12-0 right now and won 3 locals. Tabled every single opponent. I have no idea why I didn't just bring this to LVO. I think I was concerned about psychic powers.
I'm not bragging btw. I'm just saying I feel bad beating people with the Castellan and with knights in general. You are sitting here calling it useless. I find it absolutely absurd. It's almost as bad as Eldar defending SS all edition.
You play soup, call it knights, and abuse the CP mechanic, and then conflate that with Castellan is good all the time is what you meant to say?
The list has 1400 points of knights.
The overriding point was missed. People are arguing a Castellan in list that's 2000 pts of knights, no guard, no marines, no extras are under performing due to the cost of RIS. You initially made a good point about ensuring to screw with an opponents target priority, but your list doesn't reinforce your corner.
Allies are probably the root issue, as it allows design paradigms to be bent for each army. Guardsmen being 4pts with orders is a very good deal regardless, but when they can't suddenly pack in a 3++ point and click unit destroyer they would hopefully just go back to being "good". If IG is designed to be full of dirt cheap bodies that has a lot of CP but nothing meaningful to spam them on then that's fine.
When they can do that and feed them into a CP hungry, low head count army to bend the design vision to something unnatural is when the system breaks down, as seen.
I feel like this thread is definitely starting to reach the point where the one major thing that we can still agree on is that the FAQ should have been released already.
Burnage wrote: I feel like this thread is definitely starting to reach the point where the one major thing that we can still agree on is that the FAQ should have been released already.
Unless they are still debating it. Otherwise, I agree.
I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you are trying to pull here but I'll just say this.
It is possible for more than one aspect of the game to be problematic.
Is it problematic that you can turn 1 charge with super charged units pumped up with CP like tzangoors or shinning spears ect? OFC it is. It mandates that you have loads of chaff to stop your good units from being deleted with opponents CP spells and gimmicks.
Is it problematic that a Castellan and infantry is really undercosted. OFC it is.
Is it problematic that armies gernerate CP based on cheap troops and hq's? OFC it is. It mandates that soup will always be better than mono.
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
Wow don't even know the codex knights can't break 12CP under 2k period
I was including the 3 CP for battle forged....
Automatically Appended Next Post: If a SS is worth 2 points....Every marine is overcosted at 13 and should probably be 11....So you are basically saying all marines should have 3++ saves. You know - that might help them be competitive choices.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/26 16:23:21
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because when people keep telling people they run an X faction list, when it soup. The perception of the power of each codex gets distorted out of all relation to reality.
GW take this feedback and then make changes based on well we have guard players saying knights are too powerful and "knight" player's saying they don't have issues. Well we obviously didn't cost their strategums correctly.
Now the 32 douche bags are mandatory, If I wanted to play Guard I would still own my Pretorians.
Also if a Castellen is so undercosted why do they not show up in pure knights list or renegade knights lists.
Is it maybe less the model and it's CP habit that makes Tony Montana's cocaine habit look like light recrational use.
