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Tyrion was a prisoner, but also the de facto head of the one of the most powerful families in Westeros.

And all he did was betray a Queen not everyone was all that happy with.

 gorgon wrote:
There were other ways of getting it done that end up with Jon as a decent king and not in prison...they just end up with dead Tyrion.

Such as? He was locked in a cell, guarded by Unsullied, with presumably mere hours before being fed to the dragon. All of his allies bar Jon are dead. Does Tyrion have faceless man powers we aren't aware of?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrion was a prisoner, but also the de facto head of the one of the most powerful families in Westeros.

And all he did was betray a Queen not everyone was all that happy with.

So what power and influence did the Lannister family still have? They were in debt up to their eyeballs, their army was gone, their allies were char-broiled, and their only survivor -- the chief advisor to the unliked queen who just cooked King's Landing -- was in shackles. Makes much more sense that Lannisters would be eliminated by the other houses, who had plenty of reason to hate them. Instead, the Lannisters get to decide the new government...and run it!

Greatest. Play. Ever. And I'm sorry, but to me that's kind of a dark note. Tyrion doesn't even deserve to live, let alone win the Game of Thrones (which he did).

Meanwhile, all Jon did was eliminate a bloodthirsty tyrant who didn't have the best claim to the throne anyway. Right?



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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
There were other ways of getting it done that end up with Jon as a decent king and not in prison...they just end up with dead Tyrion.

Such as? He was locked in a cell, guarded by Unsullied, with presumably mere hours before being fed to the dragon. All of his allies bar Jon are dead. Does Tyrion have faceless man powers we aren't aware of?

I think we're saying the same thing? What went down was the best way to save Tyrion, but not the best way to save Jon. Why would the Unsullied -- based on their actions from that episode alone -- have even let Jon live? Jon does live, but his move at that time should be a death sentence.

If Jon plays along with Daenerys, there will likely be opportunities to remove her once the Unsullied and Dothraki leave King's Landing to go world-conquering. Jon's claim is better in the eyes of Westeros anyway. Tyrion is pushing up daisies at that point, of course.

No, they listened to a suggestion, and found it reasonable enough in the circumstances.

Westeros has had two decades of war over the Throne, starting with Robert’s Rebellion. Is it any wonder they went ‘well, it’s worth a shot, as we are all equal in its application’.

No double votes. No backstabbing or trying to marry into the right bloodline etc.

It offers a chance at lasting stability. And if you want to be the next Monarch, you’re better off buttering up your contemporaries, rather than just trying to off them all.

Tyrion is a prisoner of an invading army not of the lords of the noble houses. He’s brought there to negotiate the terms of his release. The lords were also expecting to barter for Jon but the Unsullied wouldn’t even put him on the table. Once there he’s speaking on equal footing for the most part.

I thought I'd have more of an emotional reaction to this being the last episode of a series that I've loved for a decade.

Tyrion finding Jamie was the only thing that really hit me in the feels, followed closely by Drogon's discovery of Dany.

For me, everything else was cringe and I really left not even caring about how things would turn out. A writing teacher I had years ago told me that a good storyteller would have you thinking about their characters after you finished the book, and I just didn't have that feeling. I got the feeling that the writers got attached to the core characters and couldn't pull the trigger the way that GRRM could for the books (granted, I only read the first 3).

 gorgon wrote:
I think we're saying the same thing? What went down was the best way to save Tyrion, but not the best way to save Jon. Why would the Unsullied -- based on their actions from that episode alone -- have even let Jon live? Jon does live, but his move at that time should be a death sentence.

If Jon plays along with Daenerys, there will likely be opportunities to remove her once the Unsullied and Dothraki leave King's Landing to go world-conquering. Jon's claim is better in the eyes of Westeros anyway. Tyrion is pushing up daisies at that point, of course.

So your theory is that Tyrion's push for Jon to kill Dany was self-serving rather then out of a desire to see her dead?

I don't agree with that. If Tyrion's chief goal was keeping himself alive he wouldn't have put himself in the position of being imprisoned in the first place. He basically spit in Dany's face in front of her entire army- that's the behavior of someone who's suicidal, not gunning for power.

Indeed.

Tyrion and Varys were right. Dany was horribly unstable. Like any spoiled brat, nice enough when getting what they want (and exactly what they want), a total nightmare when anything else happens.

She also threatened The North. Implicitly. During her victory speech. That’s not someone I’d ever turn my back on. She proved to be petty, and incredibly destructive. Tyrion did a bang up job pointing all that out to Jon, who let us remember didn’t see half of what Tyrion did of her.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think we're saying the same thing? What went down was the best way to save Tyrion, but not the best way to save Jon. Why would the Unsullied -- based on their actions from that episode alone -- have even let Jon live? Jon does live, but his move at that time should be a death sentence.

If Jon plays along with Daenerys, there will likely be opportunities to remove her once the Unsullied and Dothraki leave King's Landing to go world-conquering. Jon's claim is better in the eyes of Westeros anyway. Tyrion is pushing up daisies at that point, of course.

So your theory is that Tyrion's push for Jon to kill Dany was self-serving rather then out of a desire to see her dead?

I don't agree with that. If Tyrion's chief goal was keeping himself alive he wouldn't have put himself in the position of being imprisoned in the first place. He basically spit in Dany's face in front of her entire army- that's the behavior of someone who's suicidal, not gunning for power.

Entirely self-serving, no. But one can't just handwave the outcome here...everything turned out great for him. Ideal, really. Talk about gakking gold. Things didn't turn out as well for his co-conspirator, who has been a far more noble person throughout. And he knows Jon and the Starks well enough to know exactly how Jon would handle it. So I do think he knew it'd give him a chance to save his own skin...and therefore possibly have some opportunities to reverse his fortune afterward. Win-win for him, lose/win-lose for Jon.

Note -- I'm not coming at this from a 'Team Jon' perspective. I just think that it's weirdly contradictory to sell a somewhat hopeful ending, even as it's the same families and the same *people* who benefit and rule. The best manipulator still ended up on top...not the best person. The noble bastard (who wasn't really, but no one bothered updating the nobles on that) ended up at the Wall again. Why should we think has anything truly changed? And if we shouldn't (which would be a perfectly acceptable conclusion), then the tone was off.

Of course, this leaves the franchise teed up for potential sequels, as there's no reason to think there won't be another game of thrones once Bran expires. There's no funny business that goes one with elections, right?

Turned out Ok for him? Am I really the only one that thinks he was made a eunuch? That was the impression I got at the end of the dragon pit scene. He gets made hand, grey worm is pissed. Bran says he will spend his life making up for his mistakes, grey worm says it is not enough, Tyrion looks down sadly fade to black.

Killing Dany was the real war crime.

How is it punishment for him, though? Tyrion is Hand for a king who -- as established in the council scene -- isn't interested in the specifics of running the kingdom. Bran is off warging for dragons and gak like that. Which makes Tyrion the man and in a job he professed to love in the past...even if he said he didn't want it at the arena. And his house doesn't just get to live after the Cersei disaster -- it's in prime position, politically speaking. The guy went first to worst to first again.

 gorgon wrote:
How is it punishment for him, though? Tyrion is Hand for a king who -- as established in the council scene -- isn't interested in the specifics of running the kingdom. Bran is off warging for dragons and gak like that. Which makes Tyrion the man and in a job he professed to love in the past...even if he said he didn't want it at the arena. And his house doesn't just get to live after the Cersei disaster -- it's in prime position, politically speaking. The guy went first to worst to first again.

Is House Lannister even a thing at this point? Most of their main family members are dead, their armies decimated etc.

And it isn't like Tyrion can just do as he wants. Davos is also on the council and if he doesn't agree with something he will definitely let you know, same with Brienne.

Also, Tyrion's love for the game was before it cost him his family and friends.

So tonally speaking -- and bringing this back to my original comments -- does the small council scene feel like a punishment or a happy return to form for Tyrion?

Well if I’m right and he is a eunuch that is a pretty big punishment for him as it essentially ends his house regardless of position and takes away something he loves. As to whether ruling is a punishment, it is hard to tell. I view it as essentially community service for his mistakes, rather than punishment.

It felt like, "life goes on, everything goes back to normal." - So probably as happy an ending as Tyrion would have, really.

Kinda both.

My 2 cents:

Drogon should have killed Jon and then scorched the Iron throne and flown off with both of them.

Dissolve the seven kingdoms along with the iron Throne.

I did not get that the Unsullied would make a eunuch of Tyrion - I may have to re-watch that. In any case, what authority would Greyworm have to do that - is he bound to the new King?

I guess with his army he can do as he pleases, but I secretly wanted Greyworm to get shank'd before the end of it all.

Where are we getting this Tyrion is a eunuch thing from?

I like how they were like ohh we will send jon snow to the wall to keep unsullied happy. Unsullied see jon on a lil row boat and leave.

"jon they gone.. come back and you can be king!"

Im glad its all over. Ridicous butchery of a beatiful story and ideas...

Tyrion as a Eunuch was me
That is how I read the end of the Dragon pit scene (watched it a few times now)
Bran makes Tyrion hand
Grey worm says he is a criminal and needs justice
Bran says he just got it, he will spend the rest of his life working to correct his mistakes
Greyworm says that isn’t good enough
When he says that Tyrion’s head jerks slight toward Grey Worm, then slowly turns back to center and he slowly looks down.

My take on that was the “enough” was him being gelded. It is never explicitly stated but it seems to be pretty clearly intended to me. It also seems like an appropriate punishment

 MDSW wrote:
I did not get that the Unsullied would make a eunuch of Tyrion - I may have to re-watch that. In any case, what authority would Greyworm have to do that - is he bound to the new King?

I guess with his army he can do as he pleases, but I secretly wanted Greyworm to get shank'd before the end of it all.

I assumed the poster mean 'eunuch' as in 'an ineffectual person'. But I don't see how the evidence we're presented supports that. He's shown running the small council meeting, and Bran exits, uninterested yet confident in his ability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
My take on that was the “enough” was him being gelded. It is never explicitly stated but it seems to be pretty clearly intended to me. It also seems like an appropriate punishment

Oooooh...I definitely didn't take it that way. I guess it'd be payback for all his jokes.

I am immensely disappointed with how they wrapped everything up.

Nah. Bronn would’ve made a joke about it. I guarantee you.

Rather it’s ‘tough luck, Grey Worm, the King has spoken, and being Hand is justice enough’

One of the things that irked me was how Dany let her guard down around Tyrion and Jon. Like I woulda had guards with me and especially watching my back everywhere. Seems like a wasted opportunity they could have used increasing paranoia to help show her descent into madness but it was glossed over.

 Thargrim wrote:
One of the things that irked me was how Dany let her guard down around Tyrion and Jon. Like I woulda had guards with me and especially watching my back everywhere. Seems like a wasted opportunity they could have used increasing paranoia to help show her descent into madness but it was glossed over.

I agree, as it was odd to see her all alone in those few scenes, admiring the throne, etc. Maybe we were just supposed to think Dany was simply 'too cute to kill' - well, cute certainly Emelia is, but they really did not do her character justice and give her a proper descent into megalomania madness, IMHO.

 Thargrim wrote:
One of the things that irked me was how Dany let her guard down around Tyrion and Jon. Like I woulda had guards with me and especially watching my back everywhere. Seems like a wasted opportunity they could have used increasing paranoia to help show her descent into madness but it was glossed over.

For Jon, I think she was hoping to bring him back into the fold - if not as a lover, then at least to deliver the north.

Funny how Dany switches her normally bright wardrobe to full Darth Vader Black immediately after murdering all the younglings of King's Landing, flowing cape and all.

Bran who never once does anything useful with his warg powers is suddenly the perfect choice?? Maybe if he'd provided any sort of guidance or leadership at any point in the series it'd be more plausible. By electing him they in effect elected the perfect non-king. We need the King's guidance, oops he's off warg-ing again? just do whatever it is we wanted anyways. Also lets suddenly start calling him Bran the Broken to remind ourselves that he can't really do anything important. If we ever disagree and want to get replace him, at least he's easy to push out the window.

Sansa declares the North to have always been free, umm for the whole of the series wasn't it king of the seven kingdoms not six? She gets to declare her complete independence but none of the other lords feel compelled to do likewise? Even just a token nod such as we remain separate but with our full support would make much better political sense given it's her brother going on the throne. Way she says it's smacks of future rebellion and frankly comes off like a complete power hungry b**ch.

So that was underwhelming.

After all these years and buildup they went and f'd it up. Episodes three - six. Just terrible. Rushed and betrayed the story arc's of nearly every character.
I guess people can stop moaning about Lost now, we have a new low bar.

Hmmm well its was not as bad as most of this season but not great. The first half an hour or so was not bad and then they killed Dany and gave up on any kind of coherency.

Dany declaring a crusade was cool, all that stuff I enjoyed. Loved Grey Worms line about them still breathing. I'd have been hapy if we had eneded with her speech

Dany gets betrayed for a final time by the man she loves - ah well but Drogon does not burn him, the Unsullied and the Dothraki do not tear him aprt - sorry no thats BS - he was a dead man walking - same with Tyrion. Dany's army would have gone a whole new killing spree and the civil war would have started right then.

King Landing regenerates very quickly..........
King Bran - - So it was his plan to break up Dany and Jon so he could claim the throne - hmm ok then. Nice guy - glad he is happy with all those who died in the process - but hey he doesn't care about the real world right - can;t see how that could go wrong - or is that another character rewrite.
Seriously no other lord sees a Stark as a puppet for Sansa - who is totally following in Dany's footsteps, Queen of the North today, Queen of Westros tomorrow.
The Greyjoys and the rest don't imediateely break off the same as the North?
No one sees a problem with Elector Counts
As Tyrion said - lets see in ten years - when the kingdom has disolved into civil war and chaos.

Sam makes me want to vomit every time I see his smug stupid fething features talking crap and they even confirm his author avatar status in the show -