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The last scene with the reunion couldn't have been more fanservice driven.

There you had literally all fan favorites. Bronn, Davos, Sam, Brienne, Tyrion, even Podrick!
It was painfull to watch, like something out of a sitcom.

nm

 Galas wrote:
The last scene with the reunion couldn't have been more fanservice driven.

There you had literally all fan favorites. Bronn, Davos, Sam, Brienne, Tyrion, even Podrick!
It was painfull to watch, like something out of a sitcom.

Spoiler:

Lets be honest people , this absolutely mediocre of a finale was worth it just for pearls like this one

If they made a sitcom with those characters/actors just sitting around a table for half an hour each week plotting, I would watch the gak out of it.

So building on my thoughts about Daenerys now that there have been some responses...

I think the showrunners did lay groundwork for Daenerys' turn. But those were usually resigned to the Big Stuff Happening(TM) moments. The turn would have felt more organic had there been more darkness in some of the quiet times. Subtle thing, but I think it would have helped had, say, some of the romantic moments been punctuated with a slightly dark off-note. Something that makes Jon (and the audience) say 'hmm'.

To me, that starts to bring in the performance and direction as part of the problem. Clarke didn't know her character was going to turn and that's okay (although it would have had to have helped IMO). But the directors could have asked her to try this line or that line in a different manner. It might also be that Emilia Clarke just can't deliver those kinds of subtleties. There are actors on the show who could definitely pull that off, but her natural performance seems to trend sweet and light.

I certainly think the writers made blunders, but the show is more than a script and the work of many more than two people. If Daenerys' turn doesn't feel organic (and I agree that it doesn't even as I knew it was a strong possibility), then there's blame to go around.

I had the thought earlier that an episode or two might have actually made it better. - Probably setting it around 'Last Hearth.'

The thing I found with Dany, was it was a sudden jump. Sure, there were hints of a road there and a possible path, like Tyrion-the-voice-of-the-showrunners called out. But it didn't feel natural.

It just felt like:

Noone:
Varys: "I'm worried that Dany's nuts."

Next episode:
*Dany goes nuts*



You could potentially pace things out... Have things as in-universe justifiable excuses (playing into Tyrion's point, and Jon's naivety.)

For example, start off with some collateral damage. There's a battle, maybe it's the Cavalry riding to intercept some low level White Walkers as they break through the gate.

The soldiers are mixing things up with the dead and are losing. Dany does a 'danger close' - Lots of northmen are shown visibly dying horrifically, alongside a lot of the undead. However, it allows the rest of the army to retreat.
A justifiable result. Horrible, but justifiable.

The Siege of Last Hearth.
Last Hearth falls, the gates fall, the keep falls. It's filled with children and people...
The White Walkers do their arm raising thing. The dead start slowly rising, the wave of them getting closer and closer to the hall containing hundreds of civilians.

Dracarys.

They would have been more enemies to fight at Winterfell. She had no choice.

Right. Right...

Right?

Part of it might be a result of the medium. If Dany had made her turn over the course of 30-40 minutes of a movie, it might have felt more organic (not that it would have been, it's just the way we expect things to go with the time). With tv, and the way we watch it (at least this series, where every episode is watched as it comes out), time seems to unfold differently. I wonder if this season would play out differently if watched more like a movie.

The other element that occurs to me is Jon asks Tyrion if he was right to knife her and even Tyrion seems still not sure - "ask me in ten years"

Given that nothing is seen to change in the kingdoms except the faces around the table was he right? I assume the slavers will retake Meerem and start back up as before. Sansa is building her power base - I am sure Dorn and the other rulers will do the same. The game begins again - nothing has changed.

After all you can't make an empire and change the world without burning a few cities.......Now if Dany could still not have children - could she have even built a sustainable empire or was she always going to be Alexander the Great at some point. Would she have had to purge the Dothraki at some point to make her brave new world or at least destroy everything about their current culture.

Personally amongst the Jon Snow/Tyrion etc love in scenes I would have liked them to reference her reuniting with Drogo as she saw in her vision of a burned kings landing?

re time - the show is actualy very bad at telling you time has passed - it often does but there is little to no indication that it does.

Again, that time dilation might be down to medium. And expectations based on earlier seasons. I wouldn't have preferred a little subtitle that said "four months later" after some shots. It was unclear about time passing for about four seconds into a scene.

Two lines, one from GoT, the other from Wargames...
"When you play a game of thrones, you either win, or you die"
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play"

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Again, that time dilation might be down to medium. And expectations based on earlier seasons. I wouldn't have preferred a little subtitle that said "four months later" after some shots. It was unclear about time passing for about four seconds into a scene.

That I very much agree on! Just a quick time framing.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Again, that time dilation might be down to medium. And expectations based on earlier seasons. I wouldn't have preferred a little subtitle that said "four months later" after some shots. It was unclear about time passing for about four seconds into a scene.

Jon comes across Greywurm executing people in the streets. Says he’s going to go have a talk with the queen about that behavior and leaves with Greywurm doing his thing in the background. Next scene Jon walks thru the parade grounds, up a flight a stairs, and there’s Greywurm at the top. It’s like what the hell? Are there two of you? Did you sprint down a side street as soon as I turned a corner? Did you steal the ancient teleportation jutsu passed down thru the lines of Nightwatch messenger boys?

 AduroT wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Again, that time dilation might be down to medium. And expectations based on earlier seasons. I wouldn't have preferred a little subtitle that said "four months later" after some shots. It was unclear about time passing for about four seconds into a scene.

Jon comes across Greywurm executing people in the streets. Says he’s going to go have a talk with the queen about that behavior and leaves with Greywurm doing his thing in the background. Next scene Jon walks thru the parade grounds, up a flight a stairs, and there’s Greywurm at the top. It’s like what the hell? Are there two of you? Did you sprint down a side street as soon as I turned a corner? Did you steal the ancient teleportation jutsu passed down thru the lines of Nightwatch messenger boys?

I actually laughed at that scene, and if it was some kind of "joke" I could have forgive it. But no. The show just had lost any pretension of internal coherence.

...Grey Worm needs to die... I am starting a petition!!!

 MDSW wrote:
...Grey Worm needs to die... I am starting a petition!!!

I was pleased he survived

Although would have been good to have him turn up with Jon and Tyrion's head in a bag and chuck it at the feet of the motley collection of wannabee lords as a leaving present and then walk out - cut to the Unsullied and and the Dothraki loading their ships to head home.

One last thing - whatever happened to all the fanatical prirestess of the Lord of Light? Maybe Drogon is off to see them about the resurection of his mother. Can but hope.

 Galas wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Again, that time dilation might be down to medium. And expectations based on earlier seasons. I wouldn't have preferred a little subtitle that said "four months later" after some shots. It was unclear about time passing for about four seconds into a scene.

Jon comes across Greywurm executing people in the streets. Says he’s going to go have a talk with the queen about that behavior and leaves with Greywurm doing his thing in the background. Next scene Jon walks thru the parade grounds, up a flight a stairs, and there’s Greywurm at the top. It’s like what the hell? Are there two of you? Did you sprint down a side street as soon as I turned a corner? Did you steal the ancient teleportation jutsu passed down thru the lines of Nightwatch messenger boys?

I actually laughed at that scene, and if it was some kind of "joke" I could have forgive it. But no. The show just had lost any pretension of internal coherence.

The editing there was unfortunate. IIRC, the showrunners also directed that episode.

 Mr Morden wrote:


One last thing - whatever happened to all the fanatical prirestess of the Lord of Light? Maybe Drogon is off to see them about the resurection of his mother. Can but hope.

Of course!!! Jurnn Snerr had it done to him, so why not Dany!

...Boy, will she wake up pi$$ed...

I think the showrunners sent the Red Priests(-esses), R'hllor, the Great Other, Azor Ahai, The Prince who was Promised, Valonqar, Three Betrayals, and more off to the land of Welostinterest.

 gorgon wrote:
I think the showrunners sent the Red Priests(-esses), R'hllor, the Great Other, Azor Ahai, The Prince who was Promised, Valonqar, Three Betrayals, and more off to the land of Welostinterest.

The show regularly skipped over this stuff. Most notably when they showed the Valinqar scene and deliberately left out the Valinqar part. Honestly, the only reason most people are even aware they exist is because fans keep inserting them to support their fan theories.

Anyone notice how little dialogue there has been this season?

Its mostly been action and not character talking or even interacting.

It feel very disjointed from a relationship view for the character.

 MDSW wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


One last thing - whatever happened to all the fanatical prirestess of the Lord of Light? Maybe Drogon is off to see them about the resurection of his mother. Can but hope.

Of course!!! Jurnn Snerr had it done to him, so why not Dany!

...Boy, will she wake up pi$$ed...

and still has a Dragon

I think the showrunners sent the Red Priests(-esses), R'hllor, the Great Other, Azor Ahai, The Prince who was Promised, Valonqar, Three Betrayals, and more off to the land of Welostinterest.

It was wierd how they dropped in some of this stuff (maybe GRM insisted they did so) and then did not bother to use them

eg- rather than treading water for most of season 7 they could have used them to build Dany's dark side - having her as a object of worship for the cult of the Lord of Light would have rang serious warning bells, with the church of the seven crippled they could have been a whole new dark power in the kingdoms which would have made melisandre's presence at the (pointless) battle of Wintefell just part of a growing relgious movement. Have dany at first not be happy about them, but grow to accept and embrace their worship as part of her "destiny".

Anyone notice how little dialogue there has been this season?

Its mostly been action and not character talking or even interacting.

It feel very disjointed from a relationship view for the character.

There was quite abit in the non battle episodes - before and after the Battle of Winterfell - some of it was not great but agree like much of the season it was very uneven.

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think the showrunners sent the Red Priests(-esses), R'hllor, the Great Other, Azor Ahai, The Prince who was Promised, Valonqar, Three Betrayals, and more off to the land of Welostinterest.

The show regularly skipped over this stuff. Most notably when they showed the Valinqar scene and deliberately left out the Valinqar part. Honestly, the only reason most people are even aware they exist is because fans keep inserting them to support their fan theories.

I'd say that they downplayed some, but the PTWP was definitely a thing in earlier seasons. Aemon and Melisandre (as recently as season 7) both talk about it. Then the writers ignored it at the Winterfell endgame because they had a kewl idea for Arya. Even though their finish line had Daenerys and Jon playing the roles of Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai.

The PTWP does have some importance to the story, because it was a key motivator for Rhaegar. Of course, it's certainly possible that they 'saved' that material for prequel series and such.

 gorgon wrote:
I think the showrunners sent the Red Priests(-esses), R'hllor, the Great Other, Azor Ahai, The Prince who was Promised, Valonqar, Three Betrayals, and more off to the land of Welostinterest.

That's bloody hilarious!!!

I've been mulling over this the past few days letting my thoughts settle. And tbh I think I liked the ending of this less than BSG or mass effect 3. Thing is, though I had problems with those endings too, at least I felt something. In GoT all I felt was bitterness, lack of emotional impact. The chris stuckmann review just reinforced all my thoughts on this.

The Ending felt 'hollow' and 'unearned'. The Ending of all these characters aren't very worthy of their endings. Jon Going north, makes some sense, but he felt like the best possible person to lead the north instead of Sansa. Sansa's plot line has been a bit of a downer for me especially when she implied she got that way and was proud she did because of her torture and psychological manipulation by people and that she is happy about that... Um what?

Jon's storyline felt neutered and unappealing, Jon did one big thing this season and thats about it. He had very few lines and little to no interaction with his heritage. If he had revealed to grey worm : "I am the Queen's Cousin." and instead of him being exiled but Arya would've added some weight to it and would've allowed Jon to have at least a nice ending. Arya feths off anyway so her going into exile would've made more sense as her punishment, she is exiled from all seven kingdoms and grey worm is happy with that. And fufilling her last prophesy of killing someone with green eyes...

Tyrion becoming hand makes sense but feels unearned. It should've been jon making that speech on behalf of tyrion, "We've lived under the rule of kings undetermined by lesser men."

Sansa scedeing in the end with the north made some sense but the iron islands and dorne are probably wondering "Why can't we?"

They should instead of allowed the North to stay but would govern themselves entirely and could have a queen and king, but instead act as an ally instead of a kingdom directly under the King of the Seven Kingdoms.

They should've addressed the elephant in the room that Tyrion is now Defacto Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West. But they didn't.

Bronn being master of coin makes little sense considering he was a mercenary with no formal education. If anything it would made more sense to have been MASTER OF WAR.

The book at the end was stupid and unneeded, could've literally been, "The Maesters are working on a new work of the recent tragedies."
"It will be an interesting read when they finish it."
"The Song of Ice and Fire," Sam sings, "A tale worth telling."

End no need for that stupid dialogue.

Have a scene with Meera Reed and Bran Stark. Cause SHe deserves thanks or at least some acknowledgement in the script.

Something with Daario seeing the body of Dany delivered to him and a hint of that dany comes back to life and she is now with her true lover. This would satisfy a lot of plots and would give some credence to the lord of light. But she decides not to rule and goes to her house of the red door and tree. Home if you will. (Someone suggested this)

The unsullied arrive in Naath and all die because they arrive during the day.

Dorthraki would stay in westeros they wouldn't go back across the narrow sea.

The face of westeros and would change completely.

I guess what i am trying to say. This needed more time in the cooker there is no excuse for having 6 episodes in a TV series and trying to rush it. This felt super rushed that has almost two and a half years in development.

I think Jon's ending is better if he denies his birthright and *chooses* to go north out of disgust, shame and sorrow, instead of losing all agency at the hands of less consequential characters.

Now, it could be that GRRM intends for Jon's fate to parallel that of Daenerys -- that he's neutered and discarded once deemed both no longer useful and too dangerous to keep around. That'd make the whole story about the tragic end to the Targaryen family, and that would be fine too IMO. But then I'd think you'd want to at least mention his bloodline and make that part of the characters' discussion around his fate...?

Again, I think we have GRRM's finish line but a lead-up invented by the showrunners, and so it's not quite clear what the story is really about in the end.

 gorgon wrote:


Again, I think we have GRRM's finish line but a lead-up invented by the showrunners, and so it's not quite clear what the story is really about in the end.

I get the feeling from recent books that GRRM isn’t sure what the story is about anymore either. At the very least it feels like he isn’t sure how good or valid his original plan was in the decades since it was envisioned. I’m curious if it’s a duke nukem situation, where trying to develop ahead of an ever evolving audience has caused so many revamps that it just never gets done.

His plot threads are definitely trending toward Gordian knot status. Although I don't like many decisions made by the showrunners...they were presented lot of challenges and probably didn't have enough good answers from the architect.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The Ending felt 'hollow' and 'unearned'. The Ending of all these characters aren't very worthy of their endings. Jon Going north, makes some sense, but he felt like the best possible person to lead the north instead of Sansa. Sansa's plot line has been a bit of a downer for me especially when she implied she got that way and was proud she did because of her torture and psychological manipulation by people and that she is happy about that... Um what?

Jon's storyline felt neutered and unappealing, Jon did one big thing this season and thats about it. He had very few lines and little to no interaction with his heritage. If he had revealed to grey worm : "I am the Queen's Cousin." and instead of him being exiled but Arya would've added some weight to it and would've allowed Jon to have at least a nice ending. Arya feths off anyway so her going into exile would've made more sense as her punishment, she is exiled from all seven kingdoms and grey worm is happy with that. And fufilling her last prophesy of killing someone with green eyes...

Tyrion becoming hand makes sense but feels unearned. It should've been jon making that speech on behalf of tyrion, "We've lived under the rule of kings undetermined by lesser men."

Sansa scedeing in the end with the north made some sense but the iron islands and dorne are probably wondering "Why can't we?"

They should instead of allowed the North to stay but would govern themselves entirely and could have a queen and king, but instead act as an ally instead of a kingdom directly under the King of the Seven Kingdoms.

They should've addressed the elephant in the room that Tyrion is now Defacto Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West. But they didn't.

Bronn being master of coin makes little sense considering he was a mercenary with no formal education. If anything it would made more sense to have been MASTER OF WAR.

The book at the end was stupid and unneeded, could've literally been, "The Maesters are working on a new work of the recent tragedies."
"It will be an interesting read when they finish it."
"The Song of Ice and Fire," Sam sings, "A tale worth telling."

End no need for that stupid dialogue.

Have a scene with Meera Reed and Bran Stark. Cause SHe deserves thanks or at least some acknowledgement in the script.

Something with Daario seeing the body of Dany delivered to him and a hint of that dany comes back to life and she is now with her true lover. This would satisfy a lot of plots and would give some credence to the lord of light. But she decides not to rule and goes to her house of the red door and tree. Home if you will. (Someone suggested this)

The unsullied arrive in Naath and all die because they arrive during the day.

Dorthraki would stay in westeros they wouldn't go back across the narrow sea.

The face of westeros and would change completely.

I guess what i am trying to say. This needed more time in the cooker there is no excuse for having 6 episodes in a TV series and trying to rush it. This felt super rushed that has almost two and a half years in development.

Lots of good stuff here and mostly agree - Although I think they went down the GRM rabbit hole in Season 7 and wasated an awful lot of time setting up plot strands that they then did not want or could not pursue.

I don't understand why the Unsullied die in daylight in naath? Am I missing a joke or story element?

If he had revealed to grey worm : "I am the Queen's Cousin."

Grey Worm would not have given a crap - one of the worst elements of that episode was that he had absolutely no reason not to slaughter Tyrion and Jon and then go straight to Naath - he has no interest or care for Westros - why did he stay at all?. Having him send their heads to the council whilst he and his men set sail for warmer climes would have been more in keeping with the supposed gritty /dark element that alot of people claim GOT was about.

Bran the silent "storyteller" is a very bad choice of king..

 Mr Morden wrote:
I don't understand why the Unsullied die in daylight in naath? Am I missing a joke or story element?

Butterflys.

I am not even kidding.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Butterfly_fever

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I don't understand why the Unsullied die in daylight in naath? Am I missing a joke or story element?

Butterflys.

I am not even kidding.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Butterfly_fever

Ah right - Missendri probably should have mentioned that then!