Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mr Morden**

The underlying presumption of the actions undertaken by Varys, Tyrion, and Jon over the course of Game of Thrones’ final few episodes is that Daenerys is in some sense unstable, as reflected by her willingness to harm the civilian population of King’s Landing.

Of course if she had ignored their advice in episode one of Season 7 - everything would have been fine.

My problem is not that Dany was wrong to burn Kings Landing - its perfectly justifiable in the context of both her world and the equivalent period of our own but it was against her own character. The rapid, complete merciless and brutal destruction of the enemy forces was ALL her and I would have been fine with her (to Tyrion and Jons hypoctritical horror) ordering the death of all Lannister and mercenary forces that surivived.

Burning the entire city was just not her, as effective and understandable as it was.

**Elbows**

Yep, a fast-forwarded massive character change is just poor writing.

In general I found the whole "ohhh, Danny is the new Cersei!" thing pretty blatant and telegraphed. First time we see her she's in white...now she's in black...ohhhhh deep and interesting! It was really ham-fisted for a story device.

**Backfire**

Burning down the city would have felt more justified if the fight had been harder, her forces had suffered heavy losses or some (more) of her close advisors had died. But she breezed through defences shockingly easily, in fact the whole much-anticipated fight was over in about 3 minutes. So she should have been jubilant and overjoyed, not vengeful.

It's again, the problem with compression and trying to squeeze too much into the very limited time. Also, I question the wisdom to concentrate quarter of the screentime in Ep. 5 for Arya who did nothing there. I was expecting a big fleet battle but instead Drogon Death starred entire fleet in 30 seconds. I guess Cersei can be excused to miss that!

As for Bran, he did not step up (figuratively) and declare himself king. Tyrion made argument for that, using his judgement that Bran was a good guy and would be a capable ruler. Bran simply announced that he had known it would happen.
We of course can't KNOW if Tyrion was right, but that goes with every ruler.

**Elbows**

Yep, if it had been a slow noticeable burn through two or three seasons to where she finally cracks, and goes nuts...it would have been okay. Even seeing far more "wait, what!?" from her loyal companions would have been good TV. Seeing Grey Worm torn between avenging Missandei and obeying orders and not wanting to murder random people would have been a nice touch. Instead they hit the "bad guy" switch on too many characters.

Danny was expressing genuine remorse a couple of episodes prior when she found out she'd burned Sam's dad and brother...but...flaming entire crowds of women and children comes pretty easy it seems.

**Mr Morden**

Backfire wrote:
Burning down the city would have felt more justified if the fight had been harder, her forces had suffered heavy losses or some (more) of her close advisors had died. But she breezed through defences shockingly easily, in fact the whole much-anticipated fight was over in about 3 minutes. So she should have been jubilant and overjoyed, not vengeful.

It's again, the problem with compression and trying to squeeze too much into the very limited time. Also, I question the wisdom to concentrate quarter of the screentime in Ep. 5 for Arya who did nothing there. I was expecting a big fleet battle but instead Drogon Death starred entire fleet in 30 seconds. I guess Cersei can be excused to miss that!

As for Bran, he did not step up (figuratively) and declare himself king. Tyrion made argument for that, using his judgement that Bran was a good guy and would be a capable ruler. Bran simply announced that he had known it would happen.
We of course can't KNOW if Tyrion was right, but that goes with every ruler.

Thing is Tyrion does not know anything about him, there is no interaction between them other than a couple of conversations where Bran confirms he is not interested in the current world. yeah I agree they skipped on so much (mostly due to wasting the entire Season 7).

The whole story telling crap comes from knowwhere - bran never does it, its never shown on screen or even alluded to beyond a couple of characters suddnely declaring out of the blue that he, just is to crowbar him into the ongoing narrative.

We also have the whole "I saw this coming" about being King, which does imply that his manipulation of Jon's true heritage is part of his plan?

**AllSeeingSkink**

I didn’t quite get what’s going on with the nightswatch now. They sent Jon back there as if it’s all returned to normal, but supposedly any wildlings left north of the wall would be dead, or ones that came south for the battle and decided they like it better up north anyway, and the Nightwatch itself would be wiped out from those various battles and with the night king gone their original purpose is also finished.

Maybe the writers play too much total war where legendary lords and armies just regen after an idle turn or two, lol.

**Backfire**

Those two guys Jon marched back to the North with WERE the Night Watch

I wondered a bit about that too. Presumably White Walkers are gone and Free Folk are friendlies now. I suppose there might be like some bandits or something to guard against, but...

**Asherian Command**

Backfire wrote:
Those two guys Jon marched back to the North with WERE the Night Watch
I wondered a bit about that too. Presumably White Walkers are gone and Free Folk are friendlies now. I suppose there might be like some bandits or something to guard against, but...

whats the point then? The Nights Watch might as well be defunc.

**Backfire**

Mr Morden wrote:

We also have the whole "I saw this coming" about being King, which does imply that his manipulation of Jon's true heritage is part of his plan?

But Sam found about it independently, no? So it would have happened regardless of Bran.

Tyrion's argument for Bran seemed somewhat thin, for sure, given the limited interaction they have had. Starks had no claim for..err...Molten Throne. If Jon, last known Targaryen, was disqualified due to his murdering the queen (admittably it would set a poor precedent), then why not Gendry who is acknowledged son of the former king? Though Tyrion's argument seemed to be that blood heritage was obsolete way of determining the ruler and thus Baratheon or Targaryen heritage no longer mattered as the monarch would be elected by Lords. Which is really very poor way to determine succession and likely to promote instability, but lets not get to there.

Curious that he preferred Bran, not Sansa. Though undoubtely he is right, Sansa comes across very power-hungry. Guess he knew his ex-wife!

**LordofHats**

Saw this on Imgur, and I have to say, if they did it on purpose maybe someday the GoT writers will come up with something better?

Spoiler:

Or maybe GRRM deserves a little credit? That's some pretty classic irony, right in line with old Norse songs and sagas actually. People in those almost always ended their journey's in a way that seemed opposite to their expectations.

**Asherian Command**

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/justicefordaenerys

This is really cool:

On March 21st 2019, weeks before the final season of Game of Thrones was set to air, Emilia Clarke penned a personal essay for the New Yorker. [ link here: tiny.cc/emilia ] In it, she opened up about the serious health struggles she experienced in the early stages of filming for the show, and how she fought through pain, fear and exhaustion to give her all to each performance. Her revelation came as a huge shock; to know that in season 2, while Daenerys was leading her khalasar across the bleak Red Waste and fiercely fighting for her life at the gates of Qarth, Emilia was similarly fighting for hers.

She speaks often of the inspiration and source of strength that Dany has been for her over the past ten years, and she is not alone. Emilia’s incredible Emmy-worthy acting and dedication to her character has inspired thousands and, as each season passed, we fell more and more in love with Dany. We rooted for her through trauma and hardship. We watched her triumph over her enemies and struggle with responsibility of rule. We saw her grapple between the urge for revenge, and the need for justice. And even at the very end, when things took a tragic turn for Daenerys Stormborn, Emilia still made us feel pity for the little girl who only ever wanted to return to her home.

This fundraiser began in r/freefolk, the same subreddit the now-infamous petition originated from. Since the tongue-in-cheek nature of that petition has flown over a lot of peoples' heads, to the point that it's prompted backlash from some of the cast, we wanted to show that Game of Thrones fans appreciate the hard work of the incredible cast & crew despite their constraints. Any disappointment we felt with the conclusion of the series was not in them, but rather in the potential that was lost due to the rushed pace of storytelling.

And so, as a gesture of love and support from the fandom to the entire cast & crew - but also particularly to the woman who poured her very soul into her character, who delivered passionate speeches in High Valyrian and Dothraki in between questioning her very mortality, and inspired so many of us with her resilience - I am setting up this page as a public support of her charity, SameYou.

#ThankYouEmilia for bringing Daenerys to life. Thank you Lena, Nikolaj, Peter, Gwendoline, Jacob, Nathalie, Alfie, Kit, Sophie, Maisie, Isaac, Liam, Iain, Conleth, Kristofer, Pilou, Rory and the rest of the cast. Thank you to all the crew, the special effects departments and set designers, costume designers and casting, musicians and technicians, the camera crew, the stunt co-ordinators, the long list of people who've devoted themselves to giving everything they could to lift this juggernaut of a series to its lofty levels of success and attention. You all deserve to be recognised. Thank you.

Very noble goal started by people from R/freefolk.

**Elbows**

Noble, sure...but I did chuckle at the heaps of praise they had for her acting.

**CthuluIsSpy**

I don't get it, why are they giving an actress who already makes a lot of money more money?

**Ouze**

I feel it in spirit, but she made $500k per episode, so... why?

**Mr Morden**

Backfire wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

We also have the whole "I saw this coming" about being King, which does imply that his manipulation of Jon's true heritage is part of his plan?

But Sam found about it independently, no? So it would have happened regardless of Bran.

Tyrion's argument for Bran seemed somewhat thin, for sure, given the limited interaction they have had. Starks had no claim for..err...Molten Throne. If Jon, last known Targaryen, was disqualified due to his murdering the queen (admittably it would set a poor precedent), then why not Gendry who is acknowledged son of the former king? Though Tyrion's argument seemed to be that blood heritage was obsolete way of determining the ruler and thus Baratheon or Targaryen heritage no longer mattered as the monarch would be elected by Lords. Which is really very poor way to determine succession and likely to promote instability, but lets not get to there.

Curious that he preferred Bran, not Sansa. Though undoubtely he is right, Sansa comes across very power-hungry. Guess he knew his ex-wife!

Bran pushed Sam to do it before the battle, to begin the break of burgeoning alliance betwen Dany and Jon at a dangerous time, if it had happend later, say when they were in the South, would it have had the same impact.....it works if if he is the bad guy and looking to destroy threats to his ascension, knowing Arya will kill his only other enemy.

The council electing him is just horrible - Tyrions speech just makes no sense - "Yeah we should ignore bloodlines but Bran is a Stark so qualifies"... he tells stories (well he doesn;t but we are told he does, whatever happened to show don;t tell) - so does Tyrion and lots of others - in fact pretty much everyone but Bron Why is Tyron and Jon even still alive. Why does Dorne (like the most powerful nation left) nod it through, we donlt want a king but a queen in the north is fine. Where are the Librarian people. No mention of crushing debt to the Iron Bank, no mention of rebuilding costs from somewhere - in fact the entire political element of GOT is ignored in favour of a few cheap laughs and lets give everything to the Starks."

As you say the succession question is brushed aside despite it likely to become the number one problem in the future. Adoption of heirs has worked in the past but it has also lead to the same problems as bloodlines - power corrupts.

I don't get it, why are they giving an actress who already makes a lot of money more money?

I donlt think they are? Isn;t it for her chosen charity?

please note that this is a FUNDRAISER for the CHARITY SameYou. Not a “counter petition”.

**Gael Knight**

Not just her chosen charity but the charity that she started after her trouble. Don't see the problem myself.

**Asherian Command**

Gael Knight wrote:
Not just her chosen charity but the charity that she started after her trouble. Don't see the problem myself.

Me to. looks like people didn't read it

**Kroem**

I just finished off the last series, I was inspired by a recent visit to the GoT exhibition in Belfast.
It could have used a little more time, but I enjoyed the broad brushstrokes and thought it was a decent ending.

**Ouze**

Asherian Command wrote:
Gael Knight wrote:
Not just her chosen charity but the charity that she started after her trouble. Don't see the problem myself.

Me to. looks like people didn't read it

Yeah, I'm one of them. Makes sense, I didn't realize it was for charity.

**AduroT**

The show may have ended poorly, but I will forever remember it for its amazing beginning.

Spoiler:

**Kroem**

Having had a bit more time to think; I really like how they ended Jamie's story.

They didn't turn him into a cartoon villain, he retained the ability to be kind, honorable and brave, but he remained ruthlessly committed to the Lanister family and Cersei up until the very end.

**Backfire**

AduroT wrote:
The show may have ended poorly, but I will forever remember it for its amazing beginning.

As I recall fans did not like it at first - "too steampunk style".

But it's iconic and ripped off a lot - see 2018 FIFA World Cup intro animation with GoT theme superimposed. Eery:

Spoiler:

**Mr Morden**

Kroem wrote:
Having had a bit more time to think; I really like how they ended Jamie's story.

They didn't turn him into a cartoon villain, he retained the ability to be kind, honorable and brave, but he remained ruthlessly committed to the Lanister family and Cersei up until the very end.

Nope they did that to Dany instead.

Jamie is interesting though (and a female fan favourite despite throwing childen our of windows and raping his sister.....) - did he really redeem himself?

**Grey Templar**

Nope. I thought they were going for a redemption arc with him coming north. But not really. He's just a lawful evil dirtbag.

**gorgon**

Despite all the 'big stuff happening' of the past couple seasons, it's interesting how so much landed on 'nothing really changes or matters'.

**Frazzled**

gorgon wrote:
Despite all the 'big stuff happening' of the past couple seasons, it's interesting how so much landed on 'nothing really changes or matters'.

Well it really is just a War of the Roses (except the White Walkers). except for the peasants getting caught in the crossfire, its strictly a "welcome to the new boss. He's the same as the old boss," affair.

**infinite_array**

Frazzled wrote:
gorgon wrote:
Despite all the 'big stuff happening' of the past couple seasons, it's interesting how so much landed on 'nothing really changes or matters'.

Well it really is just a War of the Roses (except the White Walkers). except for the peasants getting caught in the crossfire, its strictly a "welcome to the new boss. He's the same as the old boss," affair.

Unfortunately, due to the bad writing of the last few seasons, I don't think we can tell if that's Martin's goal or just the writers not realizing that they've just set everything up to immediately fall apart again.

**gorgon**

Could be either, really. It may be GRRM's finish line and message. And it'd be perfectly valid. But I suspect he'd take a different path to getting there so that plot threads don't end up at 'never mind'. 'Never mind' is a different thing than commentary on the value of stability or cycles repeating.

**Backfire**

Mr Morden wrote:

Bran pushed Sam to do it before the battle, to begin the break of burgeoning alliance betwen Dany and Jon at a dangerous time, if it had happend later, say when they were in the South, would it have had the same impact.....it works if if he is the bad guy and looking to destroy threats to his ascension, knowing Arya will kill his only other enemy.

The council electing him is just horrible - Tyrions speech just makes no sense - "Yeah we should ignore bloodlines but Bran is a Stark so qualifies"... he tells stories (well he doesn;t but we are told he does, whatever happened to show don;t tell) - so does Tyrion and lots of others - in fact pretty much everyone but Bron Why is Tyron and Jon even still alive. Why does Dorne (like the most powerful nation left) nod it through, we donlt want a king but a queen in the north is fine. Where are the Librarian people.

Think Sam represents them?
Yea it's weird they let North to have independence and not Dorne, which had much stronger tradition of independence, they actually had special privileges even under Targaryen rule. It feels like feelgood moment cooked up for Starks. Like they needed any.

I think Tyrion's case for Bran is good one, though it was not very well presented. First, they likely want new monarch to be from one of the major families so he'll have authority and continuity. Problem is, most of the major families are gone. Jon and Tyrion are unacceptable for Dany's old army. Gendry is too unknown, same for Edmure, Arya and Yara, and whoever they had from Dorne and Vale (is Robin still alive?). There doesn't seem to be Tyrrells left. So it is basically just Bran and Sansa. From those, Bran is preferable as he is male, was not involved in any of the nastiness and comes across as less power hungry than Sansa. And most importantly, he (allegedly) can't produce a heir, which fits right into Tyrion's system where monarchs would be elected. Other candidates would likely produce heirs and would be tempted to arrange them as their successor, thus defeating Tyrions vision right away.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Elective Monarchies are a recipe for disaster though. The next few decades will see lords conspiring and blackmailing each other to get votes and to put who they want on the throne. If there isn't a civil war in the next few years I'm called bs.

Its just not a viable long term system of government, and most Elective Monarchies end up becoming hereditary, as all it takes is for one family to gain enough power to ensure that they always get elected. See: The Habsburgs

Tyrion should know this, he's seen how nobles will conspire and plot with one another to gain power, and that giving them a choice is a bad idea. Especially since one house, Highgarden, is the source of most of the food in the Kingdom. Which means whoever controls Highgarden controls the votes. All hail King Bronn's dynasty.

They should have formed a republic, split the kingdom (is there a point in having a Seven Kingdoms anymore? There's no central army and King's Landing is in ruins), or forced Jon to become king after Grey Worm left.
It seems the writers wanted to think that a Elective Monarchy is a form of progress, but its actually an unstable form of government that was usually used by early civilizations, until they got it all together and came up with more long term solutions.
The wheel wasn't broken, just tilted a little.
True "progress" and "wheel breaking" would have taken the form of a republic, with the major houses ruling the nation together and making sure that no house is more powerful than another. Its a much more viable solution than an Elective Monarchy, which is more "winner takes all"