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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Plasma is bad because 24 pt one wound models with no mobility are bad in 8th ed.

Hell, i can put plasma on asm and it still sucks because they arent scions.

And negs to hit exist and are common.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 16:48:05


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Is that why nobody ever takes Starcannons, Disintigrator Cannons, Hellblasters, or Dark Reapers?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Hellblasters suck. Just forget them.

Reapers have a nasty habit of spending tne whole game out of los. They also potentially nuke all deep strikers, ignore to hit, and have amazing frag ammo. They have 55 pts of rules for less than 40. They are a terrible example.

Dissy cannons are on cheap platforms that ignore heavy and fire 36".

What are you getting at?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.

Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.

Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)

Disagree with your assessment, you say plasma got worse because of the changes to overheat, I say that's so irrelevant due to the ability to reroll almost everything being so widespread.
Also how many invulnerable saves and FNP's were you rolling fir tac marines etc in 7th edition?
Also you can't really deny that if your using rhe 7th edition equivalent statline that 8th edition plasma doesn't actually have a gets hot rule.

I can tell you don't actually play marines. THe only army really using plasma because it has no other option.

With no -1 to hit penalties 1/3 of your hits miss - and it's well within reason for up to half miss on a typical dice roll. So when you are shooting 14-20ish plasma shots (think plasma inceptors and Hellblasters). You are rerolling between 6-10 dice. You can mitgate this by not rerolling your 2's BUT mathematically you are better off rerolling them. Doesn't mean it will work out for you. Roll 2-3 ones on that roll and you deal just about as much damage to yourself as you dealt to your opponent (esp if they have 4++ or 3++ saves).

Any alderi can basically make your plasma useless.
Custodians always have the -1 to hit banner
Flyers
Tau can do it on demand
not to mention all the units that have natural -1 to hits

Forget all that -1 to hit nonsense though. Plasma is more than capable of inflicting crippling damage on yourself even with reroll 1's.

Well you half right, half wrong, I do actually play marines, I just haven't lent into primaris as much as you obviously have.

Hellblasters are just a joke of unit design, overpriced bodies with OP weapons and then complain about the self inflicted damage, were is you chapter master, as marines haven't exactly got much better in the way of HQ choices?, wisdom of the ancients if your in a pinch and need to overcharge.

But frankly 1W power armour is so bad I gave up with them even in casual probably a year ago after watching them get wiped game after game, they never made it past turn 4 and rarely past T2.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Martel732 wrote:
Penalties to hit rain on your parade. Its very relevant for marines.
Penalties to hit are irrelevant for overcharged weaponry.

You lose a model (or suffer a mortal wound) on a roll of 1 – that's a 16% chance.
Because it doesn't specify "unmodified", a +1 modifier turns that into a 0% chance, because now the lowest you can roll is 2.
Re-roll 1s instead turns that into a 0.027% chance. Your 1/6 chance is divided by 1/6 again.
Conversely, a -1 to hit modifier keeps it at 16% – your 2s become 1s, and your 1s become 0s, which don't trigger the overcharge damage because it doesn't specify "1 or lower".
Ironically, combining re-roll 1s with a -1 to hit modifier actually increases your odds of suffering overcharge to 19% – your 2s are triggering damage but not being re-rolled, and your 1s aren't triggering damage but are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 17:14:51


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters suck. Just forget them.

Reapers have a nasty habit of spending tne whole game out of los. They also potentially nuke all deep strikers, ignore to hit, and have amazing frag ammo. They have 55 pts of rules for less than 40. They are a terrible example.

Dissy cannons are on cheap platforms that ignore heavy and fire 36".

What are you getting at?

That Tac Marines are not the only platform that carries Plasma.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




RevlidRas wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Penalties to hit rain on your parade. Its very relevant for marines.
Penalties to hit are irrelevant for overcharged weaponry.

You lose a model (or suffer a mortal wound) on a roll of 1 – that's a 16% chance.
Because it doesn't specify "unmodified", a +1 modifier turns that into a 0% chance, because now the lowest you can roll is 2.
Re-roll 1s instead turns that into a 0.027% chance. Your 1/6 chance is divided by 1/6 again.
Conversely, a -1 to hit modifier keeps it at 16% – your 2s become 1s, and your 1s become 0s, which don't trigger the overcharge damage because it doesn't specify "1 or lower".
Ironically, combining re-roll 1s with a -1 to hit modifier actually increases your odds of suffering overcharge to 19% – your 2s are triggering damage but not being re-rolled, and your 1s aren't triggering damage but are.


I have never seen anyone play it this way. Edit: designers commentary shoots this down. 1-1=1 in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters suck. Just forget them.

Reapers have a nasty habit of spending tne whole game out of los. They also potentially nuke all deep strikers, ignore to hit, and have amazing frag ammo. They have 55 pts of rules for less than 40. They are a terrible example.

Dissy cannons are on cheap platforms that ignore heavy and fire 36".

What are you getting at?

That Tac Marines are not the only platform that carries Plasma.


Asm arent better. What else are you thinking of?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 17:49:00


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters suck. Just forget them.

Reapers have a nasty habit of spending tne whole game out of los. They also potentially nuke all deep strikers, ignore to hit, and have amazing frag ammo. They have 55 pts of rules for less than 40. They are a terrible example.

Dissy cannons are on cheap platforms that ignore heavy and fire 36".

What are you getting at?

That Tac Marines are not the only platform that carries Plasma.


Asm arent better. What else are you thinking of?

Starcannons, Disintigrator Cannons, Hellblasters, or Dark Reapers.
   
Made in us
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Those aren't plasma, as they don't have a downside. They arw similar, but nerfing this kind of weapon won't help marines as much as you think.

Hellblasters obviously, but they are terrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 17:56:35


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"Plasma" and "Has a downside" aren't synonymous. I mean, Smite has the downside of you-can-kill-yourself, but it generally isn't considered Plasma...

Starcannons, Disintigrator Cannons, and Reaper StarSwarm are all Plasma, they just weren't buffed the way IoM Plasma was with 8th Ed.
   
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And yet i still dont use it or think its good. IOM plasma, that is. Not taking armor saves vs overheats destroys any value from the buff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:02:50


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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Where did I call Hell Blasters OP?

You might want to read my posts twice, because you always seem to read the weirdest interpretation.

Unless Hellblasters are now 24pt 1-wound models - did an FAQ come out and make that change and I never noticed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
And yet i still dont use it or think its good. IOM plasma, that is. Not taking armor saves vs overheats destroys any value from the buff.

Not needing to take armor saves when you roll a 1 increased it's value. You now *can't* kill yourself with that profile now.

S8 D2 but outright-die on a 1 is an added profile - it can still do everything it did, but better, without using it. Using it just makes you risk your life to do great damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:09:51


 
   
Made in us
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The base profile is worthless to my battleplans. At least, as costed. The 2 damage is critical to its efficacy.

He was talking to the other guy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:13:54


 
   
Made in us
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"Starcannons, Disintigrator Cannons, and Reaper StarSwarm are all Plasma, they just weren't buffed the way IoM Plasma was with 8th Ed."

This statement means you think IMO plasma is buffed compared to these profiles. Considering it is the only weapon among all of these that can SLAY the bearer and it does comparable damage with less range....It used to do 1 wound which could be saved - it no does infinite wounds with no save allowed....how is that a buff? It is a net loss. I would trade str 8 for no slaying ALL day.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:15:10


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





When people say "The way X was in Y", they mean "the same way".

Each of those clearly *was* buffed in 8th, just not the same way IoM Plasma was. None of those had "Gets Hot" before 8th, so it didn't get buffed by removing "Gets Hot". None of those received an alternate profile that was S8 with a more-dangerous Gets Hot. Each of those stayed the same strength and got +D. That's certainly not the same way - but that's not to say IoM Plasma's buff was better.

IoM Plasma, when overcharged, does the same damage as all the above, but at much higher strength. It risks killing the user, but it also wounds most vehicles on 3s instead of 5s. And wounds most infantry on 2s instead of 3s. Of course it needs a big downside - overcharged Plasma is much stronger than these others, per shot.

Did you know that Shining Spears weren't buffed the same way Tac Squads were, going into 8th? I'm certainly not claiming Tac Squads are better than Spears, or improved by more - just that they improved differently.
   
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I understand all that, but at the end of the day, iom plasma is still bad compared to xeno "plasma". Especially for marines, who cant afford self kills.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.

You really need to step back and stop projecting what you think people as saying instead of what they are saying.

Hellblasters as a unit concept suck, ergo they suck.
Giving a bad unit an OP weapon doesn't make it a good unit, it makes it a bad unit with a rediculous weapon.

It's a prime example of GW trying to make primaris a stand alone army without actually having the right units and weapons loadouts.

So magically having a 15 point 30 inch rapid fire Ap-4

Thats AP2 plasma gun in 7th edition without overheating you can't seriously be sayingthat isn't blatant lethality creep.

The fack the dude holding said weapon sucks is a diffrent issue.
A scouts with plasma incinerators would be more worthwhile than hellblasters because of the ability to use the weapon, the weapons nuts the issue is the sack of fail holding it.
   
Made in us
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If you seriously think power armor and termie armor is in a good place because "plasma was nerfed", you obviously don't have any idea and are simply trolling, and have nothing meaningful to offer to this discussion.

Within a larger picture, the offensive capabilities of power/termie armored units against any given army are comparable to a guardsmen blob attempting to down a T8 Sv+3/5++. Defensively, it's similar to a blob of guardsmen going against massed assault cannons.

The power balance for middlings are so terrible that it might as well be a game of 'Horde Vs. Monsters'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:35:49


 
   
Made in us
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Paying for -4 ap is insane where most worthwhile targets have an invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skchsan wrote:
If you seriously think power armor and termie armor is in a good place because "plasma was nerfed", you obviously don't have any idea and are simply trolling, and have nothing meaningful to offer to this discussion.

Within a larger picture, the offensive capabilities of power/termie armored units against any given army are comparable to a guardsmen blob attempting to down a T8 Sv+3/5++. Defensively, it's similar to a blob of guardsmen going against massed assault cannons.

The power balance for middlings are so terrible that it might as well be a game of 'Horde Vs. Monsters'


This ^^^^^^^

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:37:23


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.

You really need to step back and stop projecting what you think people as saying instead of what they are saying.

Hellblasters as a unit concept suck, ergo they suck.
Giving a bad unit an OP weapon doesn't make it a good unit, it makes it a bad unit with a rediculous weapon.

It's a prime example of GW trying to make primaris a stand alone army without actually having the right units and weapons loadouts.

So magically having a 15 point 30 inch rapid fire Ap-4

Thats AP2 plasma gun in 7th edition without overheating you can't seriously be sayingthat isn't blatant lethality creep.

The fack the dude holding said weapon sucks is a diffrent issue.
A scouts with plasma incinerators would be more worthwhile than hellblasters because of the ability to use the weapon, the weapons nuts the issue is the sack of fail holding it.

How can one actually complain about plasma when shinning spears exist. They are going to shoot you turn 1 with AP -4 flat 2 damage turn 1 the assault you turn 1 with 2 more of the same attacks. For about the same cost.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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United States

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is complete crap on low power.


No, it isn't. My local meta is FILLED with plasma and half of them never overcharge it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.


I have. You know what happened to me? Five over charging hellblasters annihilated all 12 wounds of my deepstriking Obliterators, BEFORE I got to even shoot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 19:06:32


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.

You really need to step back and stop projecting what you think people as saying instead of what they are saying.

Hellblasters as a unit concept suck, ergo they suck.
Giving a bad unit an OP weapon doesn't make it a good unit, it makes it a bad unit with a rediculous weapon.

It's a prime example of GW trying to make primaris a stand alone army without actually having the right units and weapons loadouts.

So magically having a 15 point 30 inch rapid fire Ap-4

Thats AP2 plasma gun in 7th edition without overheating you can't seriously be sayingthat isn't blatant lethality creep.

The fack the dude holding said weapon sucks is a diffrent issue.
A scouts with plasma incinerators would be more worthwhile than hellblasters because of the ability to use the weapon, the weapons nuts the issue is the sack of fail holding it.

How can one actually complain about plasma when shinning spears exist. They are going to shoot you turn 1 with AP -4 flat 2 damage turn 1 the assault you turn 1 with 2 more of the same attacks. For about the same cost.

Because 1 shot at S6 at 6 inch range isn't remotely comparable to S8 at 30 inch and 2 S8 shots at 15.
The 4++ is a problem but it's at this point in 8th edition standard fair outside of guard equivalent that want to survive the insane lethality.

Again your trying to redirect the discussion instead of actually answering the point, which is is a plasma incinerator rediculous when compaired with plasma's previous editions.

That primaris marines suck is a seperate issue. Plasma was the start of the lethality creep and GW has doubled down since.
If lethality creep continues then we'll end up with 13pt Primaris marines and they'll be as useless as proper marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skchsan wrote:
If you seriously think power armor and termie armor is in a good place because "plasma was nerfed", you obviously don't have any idea and are simply trolling, and have nothing meaningful to offer to this discussion.

Within a larger picture, the offensive capabilities of power/termie armored units against any given army are comparable to a guardsmen blob attempting to down a T8 Sv+3/5++. Defensively, it's similar to a blob of guardsmen going against massed assault cannons.

The power balance for middlings are so terrible that it might as well be a game of 'Horde Vs. Monsters'

You want to try again as your not making it clear what your responding too?

As no-one has said marines issues will be magically solved by plasma being nerfed, but terminators and primaris units would be a lot less instant fail, if their wasn't so much Ap-3/4 D2 weapons in the game. Some weapons make sence with a high/medium strength and D2, but most of them are Ap-1 so marines in cover are fairly safe, the over lap with Drukari transports etc are too close to change these weapons stats much.
But making plasma Ap-3 D2 just instantly invalidated the buff to primaris of being 2W.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 19:15:34


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Togusa wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is complete crap on low power.


No, it isn't. My local meta is FILLED with plasma and half of them never overcharge it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.


I have. You know what happened to me? Five over charging hellblasters annihilated all 12 wounds of my deepstriking Obliterators, BEFORE I got to even shoot.


I would argue they are wasting their points. I haven't missed plasma at all since dumping it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are plenty of 2 damage weapons outside of iom plasma. Why single it out?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 19:20:54


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Togusa wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is complete crap on low power.


No, it isn't. My local meta is FILLED with plasma and half of them never overcharge it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.


I have. You know what happened to me? Five over charging hellblasters annihilated all 12 wounds of my deepstriking Obliterators, BEFORE I got to even shoot.

It seems like you are having more issues with the ancient banner than the plasma though. You know your oblitz were going to kill 15 + of his marines hitting on 2 rerolling 1's and wounding on 2's. Shoot that unit first Always. My advice to beat marines would always be to kill the hellblasters first from long range on turn 1 before you deep strike and attack near them because at 15 inches they are probably going to get their points back just for dying next to the banner.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is complete crap on low power.


No, it isn't. My local meta is FILLED with plasma and half of them never overcharge it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL go play marines once please. Take your OP 10 hell blasters and just blow people off the table. See how effective it is.


I have. You know what happened to me? Five over charging hellblasters annihilated all 12 wounds of my deepstriking Obliterators, BEFORE I got to even shoot.


I would argue they are wasting their points. I haven't missed plasma at all since dumping it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are plenty of 2 damage weapons outside of iom plasma. Why single it out?


Plasma is being used as a shorthand for high-rate-of-fire S5+/AP-2 or better/Dd3 or D2-3 weapons, which includes battle cannons, disintegrators, starcannons, Reaper launchers, every weapon on a Knight...

The problem is that high-volume good-against-all-targets guns with that damage profile get spammed in 8e because they're better than taking a specialist tool. And the most cost-effective target for the most versatile gun in the game is armoured multi-wound infantry (like, oh, say, Primaris Marines...).

Plasma is frequently used to illustrate the problem because when a Space Marine or a Guardsman is given the option to take a "special weapon" the plasma gun is a better anti-tank gun than the meltagun, a better anti-horde weapon than the flamer, and a better anti-armoured-infantry weapon than the grav-gun. The weapon with all its stats in the middle is a better pick than the weapon that pushes one or two stats to an extreme.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Why get so close?
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Why get so close?


...Because you may, at some point in your time playing 40k, need to take an objective?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Realistically - I am never doing something tactically unsound to get an objective point. Unless the game is over. Oblitz have 24 inch range and should pretty much never be your spearhead. Goodluck winning your game if your super unit gets evaporated before it shoots. You just lost the game at that point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 19:45:04


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Kill them, the hellblasters then worry about objectives
   
 
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