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 Shadenuat wrote:

Drager wrote:
This isn't Ynarri specific, but it does involve Yvraine. I've been wondering how well we can smite spam with the various disciplines available to us. It seems we can do OK. Using Eldrad, Yvraine and a Shadowseer we can get ~12 Mortal Wounds a turn (failure to cast included in the averages). That's using Seer Council, but no other stats (no reroll etc.) and without Runes of the Farseer.

I love our 2 Power (well 3 Power if Eldrad) Psykers (when compared to exploding Warlocks). Good amount of wounds, extra rules, and even some ability to fight in combat. So yeah, combining Eldrad, Yvraine and Shadowseer sounds awesome to me. It's kinda like running multiple Thousand Sons sorcs I guess.

It's roughly equivalent to the smite from 6 1kSons sorcerers (including +1 to cast and smite not degrading). In real game scenario terms, it's roughly the same as Ahriman and 3 Sorcerer's, which seems solid.

Shadowseer can also shoot her thingie, or did you already count that in?

 Shadenuat wrote:
Shadowseer can also shoot her thingie, or did you already count that in?

No I didn't, also left out the cast an extra power strats and the ynnari +3 to cast strat.

I just pointed out because it's free MWs.

And since it's there anyway, you could probably even stack some Ld penalties for Mind War, something which people usually discuss a lot but don't use.

Drager wrote:
This isn't Ynarri specific, but it does involve Yvraine. I've been wondering how well we can smite spam with the various disciplines available to us. It seems we can do OK. Using Eldrad, Yvraine and a Shadowseer we can get ~12 Mortal Wounds a turn (failure to cast included in the averages). That's using Seer Council, but no other stats (no reroll etc.) and without Runes of the Farseer.

Eldars is not chaos, we don`t have durable and cheap troops and our heroes are more squashy.

Ynnari Skyweavers gotta be worse than Dreaming Shadow, right? Then there's Cegorach's Jest.

karandrasss wrote:
Ynnari Skyweavers gotta be worse than Dreaming Shadow, right? Then there's Cegorach's Jest.

Ynnari is worst for Skyweavers now in almost every way. They lose way to good of stratagems like the 3++, shoot when they fallback, etc.., with the ability to move and advance still shooting and charging, even midnight is better IMO, b.c Skyweavers are not a melee power house unit, but they can melee, if you use their melee as utility once all vehicles are gone or if they dont have vehicle, combine Rising Crescendo with "Add D6 to fallbacks and consolidates are 6" over 3" that is very strong especially when you add Fly, now they will want to fallback for sure, allowing you to get free shots (b.c youa re just going to fallback, shoot, and charge each turn anyways)

Finally if you are going full melee, Skyweavers as Frozen stars are still better, +1 attack and +1 to wound with re-roll wounds via Troupe Master will be better than +1 to hit re-roll hits of 1, It ends up being the same amount of hits, but now you are wounding better and still can re-roll wounds and you can attack twice as Quins.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Ynnari Skyweavers gotta be worse than Dreaming Shadow, right? Then there's Cegorach's Jest.

Ynnari is worst for Skyweavers now in almost every way. They lose way to good of stratagems like the 3++, shoot when they fallback, etc.., with the ability to move and advance still shooting and charging, even midnight is better IMO, b.c Skyweavers are not a melee power house unit, but they can melee, if you use their melee as utility once all vehicles are gone or if they dont have vehicle, combine Rising Crescendo with "Add D6 to fallbacks and consolidates are 6" over 3" that is very strong especially when you add Fly, now they will want to fallback for sure, allowing you to get free shots (b.c youa re just going to fallback, shoot, and charge each turn anyways)

Finally if you are going full melee, Skyweavers as Frozen stars are still better, +1 attack and +1 to wound with re-roll wounds via Troupe Master will be better than +1 to hit re-roll hits of 1, It ends up being the same amount of hits, but now you are wounding better and still can re-roll wounds and you can attack twice as Quins.

I think you are underestimating the Ynarri and overstating the case for Quins. Fight twice is obviously great, but Skyweavers are primary shooting, secondary combat, so they gain less from that than other things in the Harlequin book. They lose the 3++ inv strat, true, which is a pain, but at the same time not necessary to make them work. Losing Jest is also annoying, but not the end of the world.

Ynnari don't lose Rising Crescendo so can still advance and charge or fallback and charge, so that's not a loss for the Ynnari.

You don't really need the extra movement most of the time, it's a crutch for not thinking ahead, but it's not a big lift, so I don't see that as a big loss.

Frozen stars and Ynnari don't give the same amount of hits, Ynnari is more consistent. Additionally, Ynarri can reroll ones in Shooting, which is huge for Skyweavers. Look at the benefits as well as the losses and it's much closer than you think. I fyou want them primarily for Haywire, Ynnari is definitely better.

I never said they lose Rising Crescendo, i said with that combine with other traits and stratagems, you can have utility with them other than just pure shooting. The stratagems out weighs it for me completely. If you want to sit back and only shoot and do nothing else, then sure re-roll 1's to hit HWC are fine with Ynnari, i have never had a game where i did that, i even go up against 3 knight lists. Their mobility and the ability to be where they want is way to viable for me to sit back and shoot.

If i want to sit back and shoot i'll just take CWE and Dark Reapers, at least i get Jinx and Doom that way, Kight maxing a 4++ with Doom and Jinx is better than Skyweaver svs pure shooting. DR with fast math is 14 wounds were Skyweavers is 8 wounds vs a Knight with 3+/4++, Skyweavers re-roll 1's, DR Doom and Jink with Re-roll 1's.

Skyweavers without Doom via shooting has lots a lot of damage, you take them now for shooting and utility, something Ynnari doesnt do well IMO.

Ynnari Skyweavers don't seem that bad, honestly.
- With Glaves they have pretty decent melee ability, so they can at least make use of the +1 to hit.
- Likewise, Unbind Souls could be useful for them if they want to get close and personal with a unit.
- They might also be a decent target for Word of the Phoenix.

I don't think the benefits are outstanding but they're far from awful.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I never said they lose Rising Crescendo, i said with that combine with other traits and stratagems, you can have utility with them other than just pure shooting.

Apologies, I misunderstood.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The stratagems out weighs it for me completely. If you want to sit back and only shoot and do nothing else, then sure re-roll 1's to hit HWC are fine with Ynnari, i have never had a game where i did that, i even go up against 3 knight lists. Their mobility and the ability to be where they want is way to viable for me to sit back and shoot.

If i want to sit back and shoot i'll just take CWE and Dark Reapers, at least i get Jinx and Doom that way, Kight maxing a 4++ with Doom and Jinx is better than Skyweaver svs pure shooting. DR with fast math is 14 wounds were Skyweavers is 8 wounds vs a Knight with 3+/4++, Skyweavers re-roll 1's, DR Doom and Jink with Re-roll 1's.

Skyweavers without Doom via shooting has lots a lot of damage, you take them now for shooting and utility, something Ynnari doesnt do well IMO.

I wasn't talking about using them as a pure shooting unit. I think Ynnari do a combined role better than quins. Their mobility is lower, but still very high and their combat output is better than or equal to any masque, except when the quins unit fights twice. In addition their shooting is better.

Your numbers are off for your calculative against a 3+/4++ Knight. Skyweavers do 12.25 wounds with shooting haywire alone (unit of 6) with reroll 1s and can do another 7 in combat as Ynnari. DR do about 13.33 and require over 100 points extra in support and base cost. Für 100 de I can do 1 wound elsewhere. The DRs also have more points of failure (more spells needed) and even one not working drops then below the cheaper Skyweavers.

How about the numbers for Skyweavers that shoot after they die?

karandrasss wrote:
How about the numbers for Skyweavers that shoot after they die?

Its a 50/50, that means you get 3 out of 6 to shoot on average, thats 3D6 more shots. With a CP re-roll it will make sure you get that 50/50 more easily and maybe 4/6 for 4D6, tho i would always bet on 3/6.

I think the base troupe is really the big winner from the Harlequin book as far as Ynnari goes.

Even still, I find giving up all the utility of the base Quin strats and Masque forms hard to do away with.

Units like Skyweavers benefit from the tactical flexibility and being locked into a CC specialist detachment just doesn't seem efficient or likely to win more games.

 wannabmoy wrote:
I think the base troupe is really the big winner from the Harlequin book as far as Ynnari goes.

Even still, I find giving up all the utility of the base Quin strats and Masque forms hard to do away with.

Units like Skyweavers benefit from the tactical flexibility and being locked into a CC specialist detachment just doesn't seem efficient or likely to win more games.

How so ?
In the beginning i was thinking about troupe without any upgrades who are terrible expensive. Than i realized the only good think is you get reroll to wounds and master do it too and it without the need of psychers or spending CP. You still need the starweavers to get close in most scenarios and you can`t use solitare. After that i realized i`m trying to make something like tactical marine better, the harlequin stratagems look better and masques are not much inferior to ynnari buffs. The only real argument is that you can use the Vissarch reroll, but is he really much better than great harlequin ?

I don’t get much time to play, so I’m hoping to throw this to the hive mind for some feedback. This is the 2k list I’m putting together:

Ynnari Craftworld’s supreme command:

Autarch on bike
Warlord- Lord of Rebirth. Hungering Blade+Banshee mask.
101

Warlock on bike
Shield of ynead
67

The Visarch
120

Ynnari Drukhari Batallion:

Yvraine
Ancestors Grace, unbind souls
132

Archon
Huskblade and blast Pistol (2nd warlord walker of many paths)
86

3x Kabalites
1 blaster in each
141

Reaver jetbikes
12 reavers 4xblaster+grav talon
308

5xVenom
Twin splinter rifles
325

Craftworld’s battalion: Siam Hann

Autarch on bike
Novalance and Banshee Mask
105

Farseer on bike
Doom, fortune
132

Warlock on bike
Protect/jinx
67

3xDire Avengers
Exarch with 2 catapults
174

Shining Spears
7spears, Exarch with Star Lance
240

Total:1998

The extra two Venoms are for the foot characters, the bike Autarchs ride around with the spears. The Ynnari warlock chases the Reavers. I’m not sure which Craftworld is optimal for the Eldar detachment.
Are there any glaring holes for an unknown meta?

GenericWoundwart wrote:
I don’t get much time to play, so I’m hoping to throw this to the hive mind for some feedback. This is the 2k list I’m putting together:

Ynnari Craftworld’s supreme command:

Autarch on bike
Warlord- Lord of Rebirth. Hungering Blade+Banshee mask.
101

Warlock on bike
Shield of ynead
67

The Visarch
120

Ynnari Drukhari Batallion:

Yvraine
Ancestors Grace, unbind souls
132

Archon
Huskblade and blast Pistol (2nd warlord walker of many paths)
86

3x Kabalites
1 blaster in each
141

Reaver jetbikes
12 reavers 4xblaster+grav talon
308

5xVenom
Twin splinter rifles
325

Craftworld’s battalion: Siam Hann

Autarch on bike
Novalance and Banshee Mask
105

Farseer on bike
Doom, fortune
132

Warlock on bike
Protect/jinx
67

3xDire Avengers
Exarch with 2 catapults
174

Shining Spears
7spears, Exarch with Star Lance
240

Total:1998

The extra two Venoms are for the foot characters, the bike Autarchs ride around with the spears. The Ynnari warlock chases the Reavers. I’m not sure which Craftworld is optimal for the Eldar detachment.
Are there any glaring holes for an unknown meta?

I think my main thought is 'why is this list Ynnari?' You've got a Supreme Command Detachment and a Battalion, both Ynnari, and yet between them there's only a single unit that actually benefits from being Ynnari. And even then only barely.

Moreover, I think you've got waaaay too many support HQs and not enough units for them to actually support.

If you're set on playing Ynnari, my suggestion would be to drop the Supreme Command Detachment entirely and just make the Eldar Battalion a Ynnari one. 1 Autarch, 1 Ynnari Farseer and The Bloody Awful (aka The Visarch). This will free up ~240pts. If you can find about 10 more points, you'll have enough for 2 Ravagers.

Also, I'd advise dropping *at least* one of the extra Venoms. You absolutely do not need 1 per character.

I'd also suggest splitting the Reavers into 2 units of 6.

Oh, one very minor point - the Hungering Blade seems a bit pointless on an Autarch Skyrunner. The Laser Lance is S6 on the charge, has better AP, does the same damage and gives him an extra shooting attack. All you really lose out on is the Mortal Wounds on 6s to wound.

Thanks Vipoid, some really solid points and exactly the kind of criticism I was hoping for.
The idea behind the list was to run Ynnari Reavers along side Craftworld Spears. That has definitely lead to an over abundance of buff HQ’s.
I can gain that extra 10 points for Ravagers by swapping the archon for a succubus, the archon seems a little redundant when Yvraine has Grace.
Why do you recommend splitting up the Reavers? Between the buff spells and combat drugs I figured I would get more mileage out of a big squad.

GenericWoundwart wrote:
Thanks Vipoid, some really solid points and exactly the kind of criticism I was hoping for.
The idea behind the list was to run Ynnari Reavers along side Craftworld Spears. That has definitely lead to an over abundance of buff HQ’s.
I can gain that extra 10 points for Ravagers by swapping the archon for a succubus, the archon seems a little redundant when Yvraine has Grace.
Why do you recommend splitting up the Reavers? Between the buff spells and combat drugs I figured I would get more mileage out of a big squad.

In terms of the Reavers, YMMV but a 12-man squad seems very unwieldy to me. I'd rather at least have the option of being able to send them against different targets (or to capture different objectives). As a minor benefit, doing it this way gives you a second Reaver Champion (meaning an extra attack at no cost).

I get the Combat Drugs aspect. However, in terms of buff spells, Shield of Ynnead affects an area around the caster (so would work fine with 2 squads) and Unbind Souls targets a single enemy (so if you want both squads to gang up on a single target, they can still both get the benefit).

I know I'd split them but but at the end of the day it's up to you.

 vipoid wrote:

GenericWoundwart wrote:
Thanks Vipoid, some really solid points and exactly the kind of criticism I was hoping for.
The idea behind the list was to run Ynnari Reavers along side Craftworld Spears. That has definitely lead to an over abundance of buff HQ’s.
I can gain that extra 10 points for Ravagers by swapping the archon for a succubus, the archon seems a little redundant when Yvraine has Grace.
Why do you recommend splitting up the Reavers? Between the buff spells and combat drugs I figured I would get more mileage out of a big squad.

In terms of the Reavers, YMMV but a 12-man squad seems very unwieldy to me. I'd rather at least have the option of being able to send them against different targets (or to capture different objectives). As a minor benefit, doing it this way gives you a second Reaver Champion (meaning an extra attack at no cost).

I get the Combat Drugs aspect. However, in terms of buff spells, Shield of Ynnead affects an area around the caster (so would work fine with 2 squads) and Unbind Souls targets a single enemy (so if you want both squads to gang up on a single target, they can still both get the benefit).

I know I'd split them but but at the end of the day it's up to you.

So the only spell I would lose out in really is ancestors grace. If I split down to two squads I can go +1T and blasters in one and +1A with grav talons and agoniser in the other. I can source some points by cutting the Craftworld’s autarch, the surplus venoms and switching the archon to a succubus. Do you think this will still be a case of too many chiefs? Also, is Saim Hann the way to go with the spears?

GenericWoundwart wrote:

So the only spell I would lose out in really is ancestors grace. If I split down to two squads I can go +1T and blasters in one and +1A with grav talons and agoniser in the other. I can source some points by cutting the Craftworld’s autarch, the surplus venoms and switching the archon to a succubus. Do you think this will still be a case of too many chiefs? Also, is Saim Hann the way to go with the spears?

To my mind it would still be too many HQs, yes.

I think the issue is that you've got an entire detachment of Eldar HQs (plus an expensive one in the DE Battalion) who are all there just to buff a single DE unit, which isn't exactly good to begin with.

As for the Shining Spears, I'm not experienced enough with the different Craftworlds to offer advice. Instead, I'll maintain that running them as Ynnari would save you a great deal of points in excess HQs.

Back to the drawing board then, I’ll put it up the next iteration with the list when I fell like it makes sense.
Thanks for all your input

Marin wrote:

 wannabmoy wrote:
I think the base troupe is really the big winner from the Harlequin book as far as Ynnari goes.

Even still, I find giving up all the utility of the base Quin strats and Masque forms hard to do away with.

Units like Skyweavers benefit from the tactical flexibility and being locked into a CC specialist detachment just doesn't seem efficient or likely to win more games.

How so ?
In the beginning i was thinking about troupe without any upgrades who are terrible expensive. Than i realized the only good think is you get reroll to wounds and master do it too and it without the need of psychers or spending CP. You still need the starweavers to get close in most scenarios and you can`t use solitare. After that i realized i`m trying to make something like tactical marine better, the harlequin stratagems look better and masques are not much inferior to ynnari buffs. The only real argument is that you can use the Vissarch reroll, but is he really much better than great harlequin ?

Not losing rising crescendo is obviously pretty big. Don't underestimate the value of always fighting first, especially in your opponent's phase for units as fragile as the troupe. The +1 to hit and re-rolls are also pretty strong. Not saying it's the best option for them, but as far as Harlequin units go, the troupe stands to gain the most IMO.

I think wyches gain the most from ynnari.

Reroll wounds strat + they are good at forcing ongoing combats.
The 5++ invo ability gives them a lot better staying power and with the yncarne the fearless buble and the high source of wounds to regenerate him will work well. Plus - Sucubus stand as a really cheap effective HQ option that can exploit the revive character stratagem.

Another big winner is Wraithguard and to some extent wraithlords. Wraithgaurd (wraithcannon and fist) gain huge from +1 attack stratagem and +1 to hit. Being able to fallback and shoot naturally. Plus obviously the ability to get an invun save with their shooting build is a big improvement.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think wyches gain the most from ynnari.

Reroll wounds strat + they are good at forcing ongoing combats.
The 5++ invo ability gives them a lot better staying power and with the yncarne the fearless buble and the high source of wounds to regenerate him will work well. Plus - Sucubus stand as a really cheap effective HQ option that can exploit the revive character stratagem.

I'm still not convinced.

- Reroll wounds stat is nice, but so is gaining +1S, +1A or Advance & Charge on all Wych units (which you have to give up for the Ynnari spell). These can also be used against multiple units and aren't reliant on a psychic test to work.

- I'm assuming that the 5++ is for footslogging Wyches? I mean, it'll help a bit but Wyches already have a 6++ outside of combat and a 4++ in combat, so it's hardly a huge advantage. If anything, it seems like a bigger boon for Kabalite Warriors. Suddenly you've got a pile of 6pt models sporting a 5++/6+++.

- Fearless is useful, but again Cult of the Cursed Blade would give you almost the same benefit without costing you 337pts. What's more, you can't even make use of the Yncarne's second aura as it overlaps with PfP.

- Succubi are certainly cheap but how exactly are they 'effective'? Their offensive ability is absolute garbage (especially when you consider that they're supposed to be dedicated melee HQs), and by taking Ynnari you deny them access to the artefacts that could actually make them passable in melee. Moreover, given that the Archon has a better aura (in addition to being able to take the Ynnari melee-weapon artefact) there's really no reason to use a Ynnari Succubus at all.

Speaking specifically to maximize ynnari in general. I don't think ynnari holds a cake to any of the main codex original top options.
Being able to trap infantry and always first fight in the next round is just as good as fighting twice (actually it's better because it's about to be your turn again) That is the best use I can think of with this bottom tier army trait.

Archons are also pretty good in a ynnari army but they lack the ability to trap units in melle. Their buffs are equal if you just take witches. Also - going from a 6++ to a 5++ is literally a 100% survivability buff. That is a big deal if we are talking about 40-60 wyches on foot.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Speaking specifically to maximize ynnari in general. I don't think ynnari holds a cake to any of the main codex original top options.
Being able to trap infantry and always first fight in the next round is just as good as fighting twice (actually it's better because it's about to be your turn again) That is the best use I can think of with this bottom tier army trait.

Archons are also pretty good in a ynnari army but they lack the ability to trap units in melle. Their buffs are equal if you just take witches. Also - going from a 6++ to a 5++ is literally a 100% survivability buff. That is a big deal if we are talking about 40-60 wyches on foot.

No it's not.

It increases your odds of saving by 100%, but it only increases actual durability by 20%. 6 wounds go from 5 dead to 4 dead.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Speaking specifically to maximize ynnari in general. I don't think ynnari holds a cake to any of the main codex original top options.

Ah okay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Being able to trap infantry and always first fight in the next round is just as good as fighting twice (actually it's better because it's about to be your turn again) That is the best use I can think of with this bottom tier army trait.

That's interesting, actually. Yeah, I can see where you're coming from on that one.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Archons are also pretty good in a ynnari army but they lack the ability to trap units in melle.

True but you're already taking Wyches for that. Surely it's more useful to have Archon + Wyches than Succubus + Wyches? The latter just creates redundancies since the Succubus isn't any better at tying up units than regular Wyches, whilst the Archon (especially if given the Hungering Blade) actually compliments for one of their main weaknesses - i.e. actually doing damage. It also means he can get significantly more use out of the always-strikes-first ability than a Succubus would.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Their buffs are equal if you just take witches.

Not quite - the Archon buffs their pistols as well. I know it's a minor thing, but it's still noteworthy (especially since they'll be able to fire their pistols in an ongoing melee), and could be very useful if you're giving Blast Pistols to your wych sergeants.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also - going from a 6++ to a 5++ is literally a 100% survivability buff. That is a big deal if we are talking about 40-60 wyches on foot.

As JNA said, it doesn't work like that.

Regardless, I'm not denying that it's an upgrade. All I was saying was that I'd prefer to use it with a unit that would get the full benefit (since Wyches already have an invulnerable save, even if it is worse, and actually get a better invulnerable save as soon as they hit melee).

All that said, I'll confess that you've nevertheless sold me on at least trying Ynnari Wyches.

I feel people are really... overstating the value of the 5++. I can see it maybe being useful in certain situations (Wraith units are the obvious ones) but unless you are bubbling your entirely army on that caster you can't just say "5++" as if its... on everything. Big wych units I guess can be conga-lined back, but its still a limitation.

With that said I still think 40 wyches dropped onto your enemy with natural reroll charges is quite cheap and dangerous in CA18 due to all those bodies with Obsec. Unbind soul and/or inevitable fate are good buffs for that turn two WS2+ (assuming something has died). The fact you can mix and match Kabals/Wyches is probably the main "buff" to DE Ynnari - but I'm still not... sold that its a dramatic upgrade.

I think its an interesting intellectual challenge to build an optimised list - but I keep thinking "but I want AoV. And cursed blade is quite useful for regular wyches. And Alaitoc is borderline mandatory on CWE units, or if I'm going all in on wraiths (wraith seer etc) I might as well gamble on Iyanden for the Psytronome."

I continue to think its bordering on criminal that the Avatar of Ynnead is so expensive compared to say the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince who is sub 2/3rds the cost.

Tyel wrote:
I feel people are really... overstating the value of the 5++. I can see it maybe being useful in certain situations (Wraith units are the obvious ones) but unless you are bubbling your entirely army on that caster you can't just say "5++" as if its... on everything. Big wych units I guess can be conga-lined back, but its still a limitation.

To me it seems better on ranged units like Kabalite Warriors or maybe Dark Reapers. Units that don't need to split off to engage enemies in melee.