Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.

As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.

Probably not, what you see is what you get.

Marin wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.

Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?

Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.

1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.

2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.

3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.

1. Your wrong here, most of the Assassins had their rules change in the White Dwarf. If you want to play in a tournament with a Culexus that still only effects your opponents psychers and not yours you are likely to find yourself in trouble with the TO.

2. Most tournements have a cut off point for new rules releases of about 1-2 weeks before the start of the tournement, if a rules publication falls into that window then it doesn't get used (and a sensible TO would include a late release like your example of White Dwarf being two weeks late in your country should that bring it within that window, if they don't then thats a problem with the TO) if it's before that then it's fair game. It does not, actually, take months to prepare an army unless you are buidling one up from scratch, at which point yes it will take months but regardless of whether you're playing competitively or casually you are going to be well aware of the fact there may be new rules replacing old ones for your army that could be published in that time frame, you just have to deal with it and get on.

3. This is just you complaining about GW's preferred method of publication for little reason. They do not release rules to suit someones planning for a tournament, instead since we generally have a heads up for roughly when rules changes are coming we can actually plan around them to a degree. It's something I'm currently doing whilst waiting on these Ynnari rules and the FAQ whilst building a list for Heat 1, I know my army well so any changes I will be able to adapt to pretty quickly.

Have there been any rumours about what artefacts, warlord traits etc. Ynnari might be getting?

 Imateria wrote:

Marin wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.

Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?

Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.

1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.

2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.

3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.

1. Your wrong here, most of the Assassins had their rules change in the White Dwarf. If you want to play in a tournament with a Culexus that still only effects your opponents psychers and not yours you are likely to find yourself in trouble with the TO.

2. Most tournements have a cut off point for new rules releases of about 1-2 weeks before the start of the tournement, if a rules publication falls into that window then it doesn't get used (and a sensible TO would include a late release like your example of White Dwarf being two weeks late in your country should that bring it within that window, if they don't then thats a problem with the TO) if it's before that then it's fair game. It does not, actually, take months to prepare an army unless you are buidling one up from scratch, at which point yes it will take months but regardless of whether you're playing competitively or casually you are going to be well aware of the fact there may be new rules replacing old ones for your army that could be published in that time frame, you just have to deal with it and get on.

3. This is just you complaining about GW's preferred method of publication for little reason. They do not release rules to suit someones planning for a tournament, instead since we generally have a heads up for roughly when rules changes are coming we can actually plan around them to a degree. It's something I'm currently doing whilst waiting on these Ynnari rules and the FAQ whilst building a list for Heat 1, I know my army well so any changes I will be able to adapt to pretty quickly.

This isn't the same as a rule book that is published continually & can be bought at any time. You're talking about a magazine that once it's gone it's gone. If TOs won't allow players to use rules, relics, &/or stratagems from WD you don't physically own then they shouldn't reverse that ruling just because people dislike Yannari & want to punish people that play them.

Are people arguing against a ghost or are there actual examples of Tournaments requiring people to have the physical White Dwarf to use rule updates within it?

There are tournament that require you to have a proper copy of any rules, relics, stratagems, etc WD or otherwise.

I just need to say that I really really do not like having rules in White Dwarf. They are all limited runs now without getting back orders that I'm aware of, so you either buy each issue, have a subscription or what? Say you play Ynnari and you miss this issue of WD. What do you do? You can't legally play the army as you don't have the most up to date rules?

These had better be consolidated sometime as being expected to purchase a monthly magazine for updates that aren't available anywhere else is a load of gak.

Wayniac wrote:
I just need to say that I really really do not like having rules in White Dwarf. They are all limited runs now without getting back orders that I'm aware of, so you either buy each issue, have a subscription or what? Say you play Ynnari and you miss this issue of WD. What do you do? You can't legally play the army as you don't have the most up to date rules?

These had better be consolidated sometime as being expected to purchase a monthly magazine for updates that aren't available anywhere else is a load of gak.

I'm hoping they'll wind up getting republished in Chapter Approved eventually.

Also; having seen the full new rules now, I kind of like the new Ynnari. They've got a real melee focus and there's absolutely nothing as crazy in there as the old soulburst, but I think there are some interesting things to play around with.

In regards to the nerf. They are doing it absolutely right. Though - I think incubi/scourge/ect they should ether get SFD OR retain PFP.

The first most obvious abuse from over a year ago was craft world keywords for stratagems. Yeah...no. They should have gained <craftworld: Ynnari> Then 80% of the shenanigans should go away. However now they get reborn eldar or whatever and they get their own stratagems. That is fine. It should work great if they have good stratagems.

SFD is basically an army trait now. We don't really know what it does (conditional +1 to hit in the fight phase is not going to be worth it) I'd even be okay with ynnari getting activations based on unit death but 1 is too easy...make them save up 4 soul counters and then they can fire again or move again - that is a decent army trait that can change games....BUT a lot of times it wont do much - esp if the unit you wanted to shoot again with was dead.


Heck Ynnari could still be OP - we don't know what their stratagems are. Or really what SFD does.

https://m.imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

dkoz wrote:
https://m.imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Thanks - lots of info there.


What is up with the incubi having a 2 CP stratagem to gain SFD...I see they just want incubi to be unusable in any kind of army. Everything seems to rely on +1 to hits and +1 to attack and bringing a varried force. IDK...seems bad. Yncarne still 337 and not that great.

dkoz wrote:
https://m.imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Assuming these are real, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be, then Soulburst as we knew it is completely gone. And that's a good thing.
Nothing reads strong enough to make Ynnari worth it tho over just running a separate Craftworld and DE detachments.

And "Soulburst actions" just reads really weird for some reason Oo

 Ordana wrote:

dkoz wrote:
https://m.imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Assuming these are real, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be, then Soulburst as we knew it is completely gone. And that's a good thing.
Nothing reads strong enough to make Ynnari worth it tho over just running a separate Craftworld and DE detachments.

And "Soulburst actions" just reads really weird for some reason Oo

Yeah - This is pretty bad though. They didn't even get a stratagem to shoot twice as far as I can see. Lots of armies already have that. They lost doom and forwarding. They get a 5++ invo bubble in exchange. Really not worth. Good news is we can go back to aloitoc Spamming DR and flyers and DE can show their true worth with the obvious double actions faction is gone.

I like strength from death quite a lot actually. It's good without being broken, which brings it in line with the majority of faction traits. Now I wonder how often we will see Ynnari on the table now that their gimmick has gone

Marin wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:
The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.

As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.

Probably not, what you see is what you get.

Having re-read it I think it is OK. If you replace every instance of <Masque> then that includes the instance in the special rule - so an Ynnari Troupe Master buffs Ynnari Troupes as they should.

As for the rules overall now we have full leaks. Not awesome and while fixing the OP stuff I think they could have looked harder at the stuff which was a bit questionable - like the points cost of the Yncarne. An interesting choice for CC elves but maybe a bit questionable for competitive use.

Cynista wrote:
I like strength from death quite a lot actually. It's good without being broken, which brings it in line with the majority of faction traits. Now I wonder how often we will see Ynnari on the table now that their gimmick has gone

At this point the only unit I think gains any benefit from it are Harlequins. Wyches are absolutely worse for swapping out their Cult ability for SfD, Kabal doesn't want to be in combat, Banshees and Scorpions still suck and Wraithblades loose the doubling of attacks they can get from Iyanden's relic or the bonuses from the Vigilus detachment.

As it stands, I think Ynnari might be the worst way to run any kind of Aeldari force.

Strength from Death seems poor at best. However, I can still see myself using Ynnari.

I like some of the Warlord Traits and Relics, and this seems about as close as I can get to having Corsairs back.

Hell, Lord of Rebirth seems almost a direct copy of the Survivor of the Endless Darkness ability from the 7th edition Corsair book.

It's not perfect, sure, but it's the best I'm likely to get anytime soon.

So if nothing else I'll probably use a small Ynnari detachment if only to allow my Dark Eldar to have a worthwhile HQ.

Standby for guard and castellan buffs. Since they got his so hard I’m assuming the effort went into buffing those two units as they need it so badly

I will look at how this might play out but harlequins losing some of their excellent relics would be a tough one. Definitely going to take my time to digest this one.

Actually, nevermind. I just realised that this just means I have to use a plethora of crap HQs to justify the single one I'd actually want.

For a moment I foolishly thought that I might be permitted to have fun with my army.

Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

The full leak is a full posts up
https://imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.

Which makes more sense actually.....I do like the idea of having a pseudo apothecary in the army. Plus a nice regen CP strat which Craftworlds have never got.
And the Corag hai relic might be the sole (no pun intended) reason that a Solitaire is not allowed in a Ynnari force.

 Ordana wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

The full leak is a full posts up
https://imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.

This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.

 bullyboy wrote:
Which makes more sense actually.....I do like the idea of having a pseudo apothecary in the army. Plus a nice regen CP strat which Craftworlds have never got.
And the Corag hai relic might be the sole (no pun intended) reason that a Solitaire is not allowed in a Ynnari force.

It would be possible to make a tanky Ynnari character with Lord of Rebirth, the Lost Shroud, the Back from the Brink stratagem, and with Word of the Phoenix cast upon it. Regenerate 1 wound per turn, 5+++, all damage taken halved, and healing whatever gets through all that with Word of the Phoenix and Back from the Brink.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

The full leak is a full posts up
https://imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.

This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.

Then play a craftworld?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

The full leak is a full posts up
https://imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.

This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.

Then play a craftworld?

Recently, exclusively CW since Ynnari was too annoying in friendly games.

If I'm reading it correctly, Succubi and Archons replace all instances of their relevant keywords in their datasheet with the same <Reborn Drukhari> keyword. Therefore my question is, can Ynnari Archons can buff Ynnari Wyches and vis versa?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.

The full leak is a full posts up
https://imgur.com/a/G5V4A8L

Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.

This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.

Then play a craftworld?

Ah come on, you had to know people were gonna be a little upset when they spent hard earned money to play an army the way it was made, just for it to not get some tweaks but completely changed in the way it works. All I can say is this.. dark reapers and shining Spears both respectively got points increases due to the word of the Phoenix and strength from death. Now that those are gone, what is everyone’s thoughts on the fact that in this FAQ they should drop in price

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
If I'm reading it correctly, Succubi and Archons replace all instances of their relevant keywords in their datasheet with the same <Reborn Drukhari> keyword. Therefore my question is, can Ynnari Archons can buff Ynnari Wyches and vis versa?

It looks like it, as both keywords are replaced with Reborn Drukhari keyword