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Ice_can wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.

What are they shooting with a 67% return?
Take say a regular 3 man squad with a tempest launcher for 107 points (I think?)
Shooting Intercessors.

4*2/3*2/3*2/3=1.185.
7*2/3*1/2*2/3/2=0.777.
=1.96. Lets say 2.
Intercessors are 17 points. 34/107=31% return.

Lets shoot aggressors.
4*2/3*1/2*2/3=0.888
7*2/3*1/3*2/3/2=0.51.
So 1.4.
Times 37=52 points. 52/107=48.6%.

Am I missing something? Hands up if I am.

I don't think regular reapers are going to be that great. You will get one volley off and then you are a points pinata. Its skewed by the Exarch (and the flexibility of the tempest launcher is considerable), but 37 points per wound when you have maybe 10 points worth of defensive stats is horrible, even with stacking a -2 to hit (which you probably wouldn't spend on a min-sized squad). Yes Devs are even worse - but I don't really see how thats a useful metric. Its like comparing everything to a Predator - when the Predator is up there for being the worst vehicle for its points in the game.

That would be more compelling if they couldn't flee to safety.

31% return is still crazy good, btw.

Martel732 wrote:
The D2 ammo is absurd compared to every other frag option in the game. That has to cost something signficant.

Why?

3.5 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.0 GEQ
2 * .666 * .666 = 0.9 GEQ

3.5 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 0.4 MEQ
2 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.6 MEQ

That doesn't seem absurd to me. Maybe against primaris, but I think disintegrators are better than reapers there.

Tyel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.

What are they shooting with a 67% return?
Take say a regular 3 man squad with a tempest launcher for 107 points (I think?)
Shooting Intercessors.

4*2/3*2/3*2/3=1.185.
7*2/3*1/2*2/3/2=0.777.
=1.96. Lets say 2.
Intercessors are 17 points. 34/107=31% return.

Lets shoot aggressors.
4*2/3*1/2*2/3=0.888
7*2/3*1/3*2/3/2=0.51.
So 1.4.
Times 37=52 points. 52/107=48.6%.

Am I missing something? Hands up if I am.

I don't think regular reapers are going to be that great. You will get one volley off and then you are a points pinata. Its skewed by the Exarch (and the flexibility of the tempest launcher is considerable), but 37 points per wound when you have maybe 10 points worth of defensive stats is horrible, even with stacking a -2 to hit (which you probably wouldn't spend on a min-sized squad). Yes Devs are even worse - but I don't really see how thats a useful metric. Its like comparing everything to a Predator - when the Predator is up there for being the worst vehicle for its points in the game.

Not reapers Spears, they can shoot and charge and -4AP D2 weapons are no joke to marine players, like sad panda feels if they are much cheaper marines are even less viable.
They realy don't scream out as being unplayable overcosted, maybe if your charging guardsmen but pretty much anything charging guardsmen looks overcosted.

Reapers aren't good because of their damage, by numbers their damage is actually quite mediocre when compared to other options in the Codex.

It is just that range and transport option allows them to do damage through game where say Fire Dragons would already died turn later after disembarking.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.

But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.

You’re also talking about marines, where even primaries are in a bad spot. Can’t blame spears for that. 29 ppm isn’t cheap either, but brings them in line which is what you have all been saying you want with other units so you shouldn’t be against it

This argument is going nowhere, you have to agree you disagree.
It`s obvious from the tournaments list that no CWE player were using spears before or after the nerf.
Even if they make them again 29 points CWE will not take them.
It`s also noticeable that pure CWE list were not bringing dark reapers.

Leds try to find the positive things in the new index, we all know that is`s big nerf, but what you think could work ?

Why does CWE get the only functional frag ammo?

To kill spehhs marines.

Dark Reapers were always MEQ-killers, and they are designed to do it well against new-marines as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Why does CWE get the only functional frag ammo?

Again I point you to frontline gaming. The people who help GW. Not every army should do things the same as others. Some are better at melee. Some at shooting. Some are punching bags. This edition marines are punching bags

There you go. Now you just need some scatterbike justifications. And D-weapons. Don't forget to explain why you needed more sources of D-weapons than the rest of the game.

Marin wrote:
And to make the matters worse you can get +1 attack. So spears probably do more damage now.

I doubt it would happen on the table often. You would have to run 3 detachments as Ynnari, with all 3 characters.

It pales in comparison what pure CW can do with their Spears (Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann; Quicken, Protect, Empower, Doom, Conceal, Fortune, LFR, list goes on).

 Shadenuat wrote:

Marin wrote:
And to make the matters worse you can get +1 attack. So spears probably do more damage now.

I doubt it would happen on the table often. You would have to run 3 detachments as Ynnari, with all 3 characters.

Why, what i`m missing ?

2 CP for the stratagem to adv and charge.
Warlock on bike to cast the reroll on 1.
1 CP for United in death for 1 extra attrack.

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The D2 ammo is absurd compared to every other frag option in the game. That has to cost something signficant.

Why?

3.5 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.0 GEQ
2 * .666 * .666 = 0.9 GEQ

3.5 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 0.4 MEQ
2 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.6 MEQ

That doesn't seem absurd to me. Maybe against primaris, but I think disintegrators are better than reapers there.

Now go compare to a frag missile.

That is a frag? What have I missed?

The Tempest Launcher is bonkers, but limited and also more points.

Marin wrote:
Why, what i`m missing ?

I am saying that for that stratagem, you need to pick 1 unit of each Faction: CW, DE and Clowns. Which means you'd have to build your list from 3 detachments of Ynnari, including all 3 characters (for total ~600+ points).

You're getting your +1 attack, but you have no defensive buffs on Shining Spears, no bonuses to charge from deepstrike, no Quicken, and basically play pure Ynnari army at that point.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Marin wrote:
Why, what i`m missing ?

I am saying that for that stratagem, you need to pick 1 unit of each Faction: CW, DE and Clowns. Which means you'd have to build your list from 3 detachments of Ynnari, including all 3 characters (for total ~600+ points).

You're getting your +1 attack, but you have no defensive buffs on Shining Spears, no bonuses to charge from deepstrike, no Quicken, and basically play pure Ynnari army at that point.

Got it, i did`t notice you need to have all 3 of them.

Well to the answer of OP... Its up there.. GW sure knows how to bring the nerf hammer... down!!! Kablaaaam!!..

The spin they put on the article beforehand is actualy pretty cringeworthy hilarious though..

" Of course, no Index would be complete without shiny new rules, so you’ll also be treated to new datasheets for the three aforementioned characters and 17 powerful Stratagems, as well as 6 each of the following: Warlord Traits, Relics of Ynnead, Tactical Objectives and psychic powers from the Revenant discipline."

At least here's a prime new example of why chasing the meta and going for the next months flavor doesnt always work out in the wrong run.
I guess that explains a slight boom on ebay so I'll try to get in on some bargains

The positive is, All of a sudden Ynnari just started appealing to me ..

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Similar units should have a similar cost. Thats the whole point of cost. I hate it when frontline denies math.

Points are a measure of value conferred on the table.

Sorry if you don’t agree with the people who help establish points costs and rules? Take over their job I guess if you would be so good at it. I’m sure GW would hire you.

I am kinda torn, on one side i can agree that differing armies can have differing cost for units that are equalish, on the other hand Frontline seems to belive that gaps like the Cultist-Guardsmen are perfectly fine now.

and this is just one such incident.

What? Source?

I was listening to Chapter Tactics religiously last year, and almost every single episode, at least one or two of the Frontline guys brought up the balance difference between Cultists and Guardsmen and used it as a soft example of GW getting it wrong, or simply complained about it. Are we just inventing statements for them so we can whine about them now, or did they really do a complete 180 here? If you can't provide a source, I'm going to go with the first one because this seems in direct conflict with everything I've ever heard any of them ever say ever on the topic.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we just inventing statements for them so we can whine about them now

Yes.

FWIW I don't think units need to be evenly pointed across the dexes to a mathematical standard.

Let me preface that by saying the Guardsmen / Cultist (and Chaos Space Marine) balance is clearly out of wack.

It's okay for different armies to have different strengths. I think special rules, chapter tactics, traits, stratagems and relic have way too much impact for you to put everything down to maths. I think some armies like Knights SHOULD be more resilient for the cost, they are big and fat and a MASSIVE LoS profile, struggle to score and many other limitations (at the moment they are overtuned but I mean when they are fixed). Some armies like Tau SHOULD get cheaper guns, they have almost no stratagems for anything involving close range presence. Armies can have different strengths and weaknesses and pay different amounts for similar units, it helps give each army a defined feel without completely restricting those sorts of tools from play.

Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant and think maths trumps critical thought, as opposed to being a tool we can use in our analysis. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.

Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?

It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.

Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.

Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?

It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.

Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.

B.c we are talking about Aeldari and Ynnari...

Raiders
Wave Serpents
-1, -2, to hit
Fire and fade
DSing

Aeldari can get their to deal the damage, thats not a problem with the army, you can have 30 Wraiths on you turn 2 every game no matter what, you can have turn 1 charges.

With the new Ynnari power (5++ aura) and the PFP still a thing also 6+++ auras, you can have Wave Serpents with 5++, 6+++ at the cost of Yvarine, it might not be as good as -2 to hit, but you can still get a -1 with its -1 damage shield.

Good luck killing 4-5 Wave Serpents in 1 turn with 5++/6+++ and one with -1 to hit, if going 2nd hide and gain 6+++/+2 armor, and -1 damage

Ynnari has its own Doom as well, so you dont lose that, ally in CWE for Jinx.
Autarch with Bike can have 6 Srt 7, -3 2D attacks with re-roll aura for him and the Wraiths
Have 1 unit with Wraith to shoot and spend 1CP now you always have SfD even in opponents turn
Can heal 2d3 or even revive a model in a unit, and can revive a character on a 4+ (can re-roll with CP).

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.

Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?

It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.

Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.

B.c we are talking about Aeldari and Ynnari...

Raiders
Wave Serpents
-1, -2, to hit
Fire and fade
DSing

Aeldari can get their to deal the damage, thats not a problem with the army, you can have 30 Wraiths on you turn 2 every game no matter what, you can have turn 1 charges.

With the new Ynnari power (5++ aura) and the PFP still a thing also 6+++ auras, you can have Wave Serpents with 5++, 6+++ at the cost of Yvarine, it might not be as good as -2 to hit, but you can still get a -1 with its -1 damage shield.

Good luck killing 4-5 Wave Serpents in 1 turn with 5++/6+++ and one with -1 to hit, if going 2nd hide and gain 6+++/+2 armor, and -1 damage

Ynnari has its own Doom as well, so you dont lose that, ally in CWE for Jinx.
Autarch with Bike can have 6 Srt 7, -3 2D attacks with re-roll aura for him and the Wraiths
Have 1 unit with Wraith to shoot and spend 1CP now you always have SfD even in opponents turn
Can heal 2d3 or even revive a model in a unit, and can revive a character on a 4+ (can re-roll with CP).

Case in point...

Those WS will NOT be Alaitoc so no -1 to hit. The 5++ is on your turn, so if you don't have first turn...and if you want a 6+++ you need a 337 point unit for that.

It's 2 CP to stand a character back up once - 3CP to try and make it work. You only get permanent SfD when killing their warlord.

All this in an army with no troops and at most 4CP.

The -1 to hit is from the stratagem, i said 1 can get -1 to hit. I also said "It might not be as good as -2" referring to the 5++/6+++ vs -2. But you can still have 1 with 5++/6+++ and a -1.

The troops are Storm Guardians, 8 models for 48pts that are melee oriented... i didnt think i had to spell that out.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The -1 to hit is from the stratagem, i said 1 can get -1 to hit. I also said "It might not be as good as -2" referring to the 5++/6+++ vs -2. But you can still have 1 with 5++/6+++ and a -1.

The troops are Storm Guardians, 8 models for 48pts that are melee oriented... i didnt think i had to spell that out.

My mistake - you're still clocking in at likely no more than 8 CP.

With only 6 wraiths to a serpent you'd be spending a ton more on transport or risk them in the open on turn 1.

I'd love to see someone run it, because wraiths are just plain cool, but without the psytronome I don't think it gets very far.

 Argive wrote:

At least here's a prime new example of why chasing the meta and going for the next months flavor doesnt always work out in the wrong run.

That's largely because folks around these parts fancy themselves tournament players but don't want to actually commit to it.

Is it me or the design was pretty lazy, we have so many things that do the some.

Spell that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.
Anti slanesh stratagem that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.
Stratagem that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.

It look to me that they really will make doom only for CWE.

The warlords trait are locked to the 3 named characters. Of course the most unfunny are picked.

Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.

Oh sure, when it can do reroll all 1s and 3++ exactly ONE time in a game? it's fine. When it can do it three turns in a row without using all the CP it has access to...thaaats a problem.