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Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

[...] That actually makes it okay. The reason no one takes it is because it costs too much,

If it costs too much, doesn't that mean it's not OK?

I mean it actually fills a roll at being a decent diverse weapon. It just costs to much for that ability to engage lots of targets effectively.

 Galef wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.

Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.

*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive.
They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats).
Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad

-

Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.

 Imateria wrote:
Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.

Ynnari being CC oriented because the ghost of the dead empowering them makes more sense than it making them "fast enough" to do a whole other shooting action. It's also much less "abusable".
And until FAQ'd (which I agree it shold be limited to Asuryani units") Doom would still work.

And actually, Doom would still work on Ynnari Asuryani units even then. The Ynnari rules prevent you from taking Psychic powers or targeting Ynnari units, but a separate CWE detachment could take Doom and it targets the enemy. Since Asuryani units would still have the Asuryani keyword, they would still benefit from DOOM.
Although that doesn't help Skyweavers, that's just a side note and currently Doom does still work for them.

-

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

I think this is right.

We might see the Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari detachments and possibly a few attempts at a melee army, but overall the presence of Ynnari will be significantly less.

 Galef wrote:

I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it.

Nope. I'd still hate being forced to use special characters just to play the army.

 Galef wrote:

I can also respect the fluff that Ynnari do not exist on their own and thus far have ALWAYS been present around one of the 3 Characters.

Yep. I'm sure those three characters are everywhere in the galaxy at all times.

 Galef wrote:

I am actually starting to really like this requirement and see that Ynnari are NOT supposed to be another Faction of Aeldari, but more like a splinter faction that exists around those specific characters.

That makes one of us.

 Galef wrote:

Although I think a good "compromise" option would have been to have a list of specific HQs that "unlock" The Ynnari keyword.
In addition to the 3 Characters, they could have included Eldrad (who at this point SHOULD be Ynnari since he's been kicked out of Ulthwe), A Shadowseer, Spiritseer, Succubus, and maybe the Phoenix Lords.

Are we just pulling requirements out of a hat now?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.

I think this is right.

We might see the Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari detachments and possibly a few attempts at a melee army, but overall the presence of Ynnari will be significantly less.

It's also worth noting that the Ynnari Keyword is specifically NOT a faction keyword by its own rules. So in that regard you shouldn't see YNNARI in faction breakdowns for event AT ALL, regardless of Ynnari placing or not.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it.

Nope. I'd still hate being forced to use special characters just to play the army.

 Galef wrote:

I can also respect the fluff that Ynnari do not exist on their own and thus far have ALWAYS been present around one of the 3 Characters.

Yep. I'm sure those three characters are everywhere in the galaxy at all times.

Couple things: I already agreed that beign forced to use a specific Character kinda sucks. But if those characters had awesome rules, people would take them anyway regardless of being required to, so they'd still be everywhere.
And to your "everywhere in the galaxy at all time" reference, the point I was trying to make wasn't that those Characters should be everywhere, but that the ARMY should only be where those characters are. Ynnari do not exist all over the galaxy (yet). They are a small splinter faction that exists AROUND those 3 characters, which just so happen to usually be around each other (I don't believe the Visarch leaves Yvraine's side, for example)

Is it ideal for gameplay and flexibility? Absoultely not
Is it one of the few times GW has made the restrictions based on fluff? Probably
Does it also inflate the sales of those model? You betcha

It's a win-win....for GW

-

 Imateria wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.

Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.

*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive.
They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats).
Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad

-

Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.

The real reason is the redundancy and locked options. Maybe there is combo that will work, but i don`t see it.

It's actually easier to make a mixed list without ynnari. I like their melee focus, but that one named character per detachment really kills them for me as a casual player. Nope to "your dudes" or to a mixed ynnari army at ~1250pts.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
It's actually easier to make a mixed list without ynnari. I like their melee focus, but that one named character per detachment really kills them for me as a casual player. Nope to "your dudes" or to a mixed ynnari army at ~1250pts.

So much this.

Well the OP's question is answered. Not nerfed as much as the Castellan...

 Galas wrote:
Maybe the soulburst double turn actions are now stratagems or psychic powers.

They are not, it's glorious. Gutted. Word of the Phoenix is a healing power now.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Maybe the soulburst double turn actions are now stratagems or psychic powers.

They are not, it's glorious. Gutted. Word of the Phoenix is a healing power now.

Which, given the nature of Phoenixes, makes a lot more sense. Still, there should have been AT LEAST 1 shoot twice or fight twice stratagem. I mean even Marines have a fight twice strat for 3CPs. Ynnari should have had a Fight twice for 2CPs and a shoot twice for 3CPs.
At least that would have made everything else palatable.

-

So 9 pages in and everyone thinks Ynarri are the new Grey Knights? Maybe someone could tell me who will win LVO 2020

"So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Squats.

Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.

 Elfric wrote:
So 9 pages in and everyone thinks Ynarri are the new Grey Knights? Maybe someone could tell me who will win LVO 2020

Ynnari are still ok because their base is Eldar which are great.
But your better off playing Craftworld or DE instead of making them Ynnari.

Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...

But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...

But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.

I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.

Ice_can wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...

But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.

I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.

I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...

But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.

I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.

I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.

Was this 180 prior or after reading how the FAQ affected other lists?

 bullyboy wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...

But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.

I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.

I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.

Was this 180 prior or after reading how the FAQ affected other lists?

After. It was nice to see GW was not just bullying aeldari units and that they were looking at everything with an unfair combination/advantage. It was also somewhat started prior by a few friends from my LGS. They urged me to look deeper into units that would actually benefit greatly from the more melee oriented version. There are a few things that still assist shooting, such as ancestors grace which is basically guide for ynnari. Since we can no longer increase our fire efficiency by 100%, might as well do it 33%. It also has the melee version of doom which will be decent for still skyweavers but also great for shining spears. But regarding when it happened doesn’t really matter.

Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.

Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.

 Imateria wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.

Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.

Not sure about Yvraine since ''Word of the Phönix'' changed so much.
But The Yncarne is so annoying that each time my opponents almost get a paroxysm.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.

Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.

Not sure about Yvraine since ''Word of the Phönix'' changed so much.
But The Yncarne is so annoying that each time my opponents almost get a paroxysm.

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

 Elfric wrote:
So 9 pages in and everyone thinks Ynarri are the new Grey Knights? Maybe someone could tell me who will win LVO 2020

Honestly the only good thing is the future is completely up in the air. It really feels like nearly every top level game plan took some kind of hit.

Reemule wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
So 9 pages in and everyone thinks Ynarri are the new Grey Knights? Maybe someone could tell me who will win LVO 2020

Honestly the only good thing is the future is completely up in the air. It really feels like nearly every top level game plan took some kind of hit.

This is what I like.Getting the Ynnari change and the FAQ changes (what were they smoking..."minor changes", lol) is like resetting the clock, so many things to think about and what I want to run this year in regards to competitive play.

Bharring wrote:
"So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Squats.

Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.

Corsairs are legally playable?
I thought they got gutted into oblivion so hard they are left with 1 HQ and 1 troop?

If so wouldn't DKoK, Renegades and Heretics aswell as Elysians be then?.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Squats.

Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.

Corsairs are legally playable?
I thought they got gutted into oblivion so hard they are left with 1 HQ and 1 troop?

If so wouldn't DKoK, Renegades and Heretics aswell as Elysians be then?.

No, they literally cannot be played, as they have no HQs.

They can only be legally fielded in aux detachments.

‘Corsairs: So long as your Warlord is Aeldari, you
can include this unit in a Patrol, Battalion, or Outrider
Detachment even if that Detachment contains no HQ
units. However, if you do so, that Detachment’s Command
Benefits are changed to ‘None’.’

IA-Xenos FAQ - I think from CA2018.

Each CA they get a little better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Squats.

Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.

Corsairs are legally playable?
I thought they got gutted into oblivion so hard they are left with 1 HQ and 1 troop?

If so wouldn't DKoK, Renegades and Heretics aswell as Elysians be then?.

My reasoning for selecting Corsairs was mostly familiar, as I'm not sure if the following applies to other factions.

The 'nerf' was the BattleBrothers nerf. Before that, while there were only a couple units, you could put those units in an Aeldari detatchment - along with CWE, DE, or Harlies. Post-nerf, the only detatchment you could field with them was Aux.

I wasn't sure if we should consider "conversion to the new edition" to be a "nerf". If so, LOTD win; there was no way to play a solo LOTD "army" that wouldn't auto-lose, as nothing could be on the table T1.