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Bharring wrote:
"So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"

Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.

Too soon, man. Is it too much to ask that if we only have troop units, they at least do what troops are supposed to do? (Generate Command Points and be Objective Secured.)

 wuestenfux wrote:

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

Why would you want him in reserve ?
You can deploy him like normal unit after the previous FAQ.

Marin wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

Why would you want him in reserve ?
You can deploy him like normal unit after the previous FAQ.

You wouldnt lol.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.

 Imateria wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.

KoS is 260.

Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.

Cheeslord wrote:
Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire thread. Has anyone started a chorus of "Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!" yet?

Mark.

It's more "Ding! Dong! The witch has been moderately reduced in power to what most crones schooled in the occult arts should be, leveling the playing field.

Dorthy and her cowards (Marines), brainless (Grey Knights), and heartless (Necron) lackies are still no match for her - unless they get really lucky."

Cheeslord wrote:
Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire thread. Has anyone started a chorus of "Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!" yet?

Mark.

Well, I'll be TFG...

Don't do that.

While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.

I am glad they changed the Castellan, Doom, and Jinx, (as an Aledari and Blood Angels player) but I'm not going to laugh in their face or make snide comments about the frustration that these changes have caused people who have bought those models.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.

Agreed 337pts is ok, but I will always be annoyed at uneven points like this. I get the "7" is a thing with Ynnead, but points values that are not in increments of 5 at just inconvenient.
297pts would probably be better though, because it still have the "7" GW seems to want, and we can just assume it to be an even 300pts

Seabass wrote:

Well, I'll be TFG...
*snip*

I like how you preface your post this way and then go on to state the least TFG comment you can. Very reasonable attitude, we need more of that.
I for one wanted Ynnari toned down, but more importantly cleaned up. And while I am glad I no longer need to consider Ynnari as a CWE player, I think GW went too far.
At the very least, there should have been Strats to allow shoot twice or fight twice. Other armies have those

-

Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.

People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.

Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.

People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.

Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.

It's only halved if you weren't using your fight twice soul burst elsewhere (which, let's be honest, you probably were). It's a bit of a downgrade, but for the way most people used the Yncarne not much has changed except better psychic powers and fight first. It's a situational nerf, sure, but also a situational buff. Looks pretty much like a wash to me. Will I be taking it anymore? Maybe, depends on what the rest of the list ends up like.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.

People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.

Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.

Not being able to Soulburst into combat after teleporting is the real nerf to it. I played mine in all my ITC games and its only of my favorite models, now IDK if i will even play it that often.

I'll still play Ynnari for sure, i might like it better now (more fun) but Yncarne? Hmm i'll try it a few times to make sure first.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.

People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.

Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.

Not being able to Soulburst into combat after teleporting is the real nerf to it. I played mine in all my ITC games and its only of my favorite models, now IDK if i will even play it that often.

I'll still play Ynnari for sure, i might like it better now (more fun) but Yncarne? Hmm i'll try it a few times to make sure first.

This I 100% agree with!

Seabass wrote:
While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.

The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Seabass wrote:
While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.

The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.

I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)

be good to each other my dudes.

I'm a Child Protective Services agent. I see ugliness in this world non-stop. Trust me, take the time to enjoy the game and the escape, and be cool to each other.

Seabass wrote:
I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)

You can be civil and still revel in the exposure of confirmation bias. Tyrants fall, people cheer, nothing wrong with that.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Seabass wrote:
While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.

The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.

Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...

I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...

I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.

"Ynnari need a ground-up redesign" has been a pretty consistent response from Eldar players whenever people call for nerfs or there have been nerfs to dark reapers, shining spears, or changes to make Soulburst more awkward to use, of which there have been plenty.

The first conversation I had with an eldar player in 8th edition was them complaining about how anyone without a nail through their head could look at Battlefocus and Soulburst and say "these look pretty equivalent."

Eldar players like Ynnari the same way Space Marine players like Primaris Marines: A bunch of new mary-sues shoved down everyone's throat with rules you'd have to be purposefully trying to lose to not use, with models that don't really work with any of the existing eldar ranges that they decided to give us instead of the many, MANY outdated models or characters without models that everyone would have loved to see.

Hey we could have given you an eldar triumvirate with like Asuryan, Vect and Iyanna but instead here's this new slaanesh daemon. Just shove it into your army! It's great! Look at how he's shattering all these spirit stones on his base! Your eldar are cool but shouldn't they be a suicide cult instead?

Naw, ynnari can go over here, in a little box, totally separated from Eldar of all kinds and completely removed from tournament-level balance decisions. Please and thank you.

Seabass wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Seabass wrote:
While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.

The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.

I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)

be good to each other my dudes.

I'm a Child Protective Services agent. I see ugliness in this world non-stop. Trust me, take the time to enjoy the game and the escape, and be cool to each other.

Naah let them do it. Others will then learn who are the kind of people you want to be and don't want to be with.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise

My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.

Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.

KoS is 260.

Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.

Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).

Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.

Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.

Goldfish memory?

But yeah, when people advocated for complete reworking of Ynnari, they did not propose lazy copypasta of Slaaneshi rule and light elfs stratagems ending up worse than any other elf monocodex.

 Imateria wrote:
Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).

Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.

Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.

Yea, that's a fair point.

Yncarne is more durable (consider the healing) and casts an extra power. I personally prefer flat 3 damage, but it does seem GW values D6 damage more. They overvalue his/her warping ability too, I think.

Avatar of Khaine with his 5 attacks: am I a joke to you?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).

Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.

Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.

Yea, that's a fair point.

Yncarne is more durable (consider the healing) and casts an extra power. I personally prefer flat 3 damage, but it does seem GW values D6 damage more. They overvalue his/her warping ability too, I think.

The Yncarne is certianly more durable due to the 3+/4++/6+++, compared to the base 5++ of Syll'Eske (don't know what it's Sv is), but both have 9 wounds and can cast 2, deny 1. I'm also not particualrly familiar with the Daemons codex so I don't know what buffs are available to him, but I've seen several mentions of a Psychic Power that could boost it to a 4++ and a warlord trait that could give it an extra 3" move (for a 12" move), whilst the Yncarne's warlord trait is +1S and A.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Yncarne has some good rules and I'll defintiely be seeing how it works out in my lists but I don't he's worth 337pts when there are several other combat monsters out there (notably Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants) who are just as lethal if not more so for less points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Avatar of Khaine with his 5 attacks: am I a joke to you?

No, 220pts is the joke, just that nobody's laughing.

Dont compare to Hive Tyrants as they are more than 10 wounds, compare Yncane to a Broodlord... he is almost as killy for less than 1/2 the points and has Powers and Character protection, just not the survivability, also can DS. For 115pts he is a monster.

He is S5, 6 attacks, -3ap D3, re-roll all wounds, wounds of a 6 are -6ap for Flat 3 damage, 4+/5++ save, chance Run and charge, with 8" movement, re-roll hits of 1 aura.
he is less damage yes, but you get 2 of them for 230pts.. lol almost gets you 3 of the, (345pts) So 3 Broodlords or 1 Yncarne?

Yeah.. compare that to Yncarne. The Yncarne needs to be 280pts IMO.

Edit: Typoes

 Imateria wrote:

The Yncarne is certianly more durable due to the 3+/4++/6+++, compared to the base 5++ of Syll'Eske (don't know what it's Sv is), but both have 9 wounds and can cast 2, deny 1. I'm also not particualrly familiar with the Daemons codex so I don't know what buffs are available to him, but I've seen several mentions of a Psychic Power that could boost it to a 4++ and a warlord trait that could give it an extra 3" move (for a 12" move), whilst the Yncarne's warlord trait is +1S and A.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Yncarne has some good rules and I'll defintiely be seeing how it works out in my lists but I don't he's worth 337pts when there are several other combat monsters out there (notably Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants) who are just as lethal if not more so for less points.

Syll'Eske is W8 4+/5++ and casts only one. The 4++ is a stratagem.

With +1S Yncarne is at a pretty ok spot since the weapon rerolls to wound.

We both agree it should come down in points, but probably not by how much.

 Imateria wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Avatar of Khaine with his 5 attacks: am I a joke to you?

No, 220pts is the joke, just that nobody's laughing.

Well, to be fair, he's the Avatar of Khaine, not the Avatar of Cegorach, so that could be why no one is Laughing

-

 Shadenuat wrote:
Goldfish memory?

But yeah, when people advocated for complete reworking of Ynnari, they did not propose lazy copypasta of Slaaneshi rule and light elfs stratagems ending up worse than any other elf monocodex.

Not at all. The moment you mentioned Soulburst actions becoming stratagems instead of an army trait it was like proposing 5 point Guardsmen. Very few players, if any, actually proposed removing Soulburst actions entirely, because, reasons or some other disingenuous, self-serving drivel.

Well send them an invitation on personal duel then.

the_scotsman wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...

I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.

"Ynnari need a ground-up redesign" has been a pretty consistent response from Eldar players whenever people call for nerfs or there have been nerfs to dark reapers, shining spears, or changes to make Soulburst more awkward to use, of which there have been plenty.

The first conversation I had with an eldar player in 8th edition was them complaining about how anyone without a nail through their head could look at Battlefocus and Soulburst and say "these look pretty equivalent."

Eldar players like Ynnari the same way Space Marine players like Primaris Marines: A bunch of new mary-sues shoved down everyone's throat with rules you'd have to be purposefully trying to lose to not use, with models that don't really work with any of the existing eldar ranges that they decided to give us instead of the many, MANY outdated models or characters without models that everyone would have loved to see.

Hey we could have given you an eldar triumvirate with like Asuryan, Vect and Iyanna but instead here's this new slaanesh daemon. Just shove it into your army! It's great! Look at how he's shattering all these spirit stones on his base! Your eldar are cool but shouldn't they be a suicide cult instead?

Naw, ynnari can go over here, in a little box, totally separated from Eldar of all kinds and completely removed from tournament-level balance decisions. Please and thank you.

The first conversation I had with another player about 8th was about 17ppm was totally fair for each Dire Avenger, because Ynnari.