Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

[...]Space Marines probably have the weakest motor pool in the game. [...]

Harlequins say hi.

Taurox Primes say hi and wave hello.

Taurox Primes are part of a motor pool that also includes Manticores and Basilisks.

Not when playing pure Militarum Tempestus. Then the motor pool is Taurox Primes—overcosted, and Valkyries—just nerfed.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the new ruling, but the grav chute insertion didn't change that much. You still can leave the valkyrie, so you are within the 9" needed for the Hotshot-Lasguns RapidFire Range.

Or am I wrong here?

You actually have to be set-up "outside" 9 inches...meaning 9.01, so you won't be within half-range fo a hotshot lasgun.

PS: Just like average Deep Strike, you need a 9" charge because you must be "more than" 9" away from enemy models.

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

[...]Space Marines probably have the weakest motor pool in the game. [...]

Harlequins say hi.

Taurox Primes say hi and wave hello.

Taurox Primes are part of a motor pool that also includes Manticores and Basilisks.

Not when playing pure Militarum Tempestus. Then the motor pool is Taurox Primes—overcosted, and Valkyries—just nerfed.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the new ruling, but the grav chute insertion didn't change that much. You still can leave the valkyrie, so you are within the 9" needed for the Hotshot-Lasguns RapidFire Range.

Or am I wrong here?

You can’t disembark in 9” or less from an enemy unit. Scions exit and are at a length of >9” away, so no rapid fire or triggering of the Stormtroopers doctrine.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

[...]Space Marines probably have the weakest motor pool in the game. [...]

Harlequins say hi.

Taurox Primes say hi and wave hello.

Taurox Primes are part of a motor pool that also includes Manticores and Basilisks.

Not when playing pure Militarum Tempestus. Then the motor pool is Taurox Primes—overcosted, and Valkyries—just nerfed.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the new ruling, but the grav chute insertion didn't change that much. You still can leave the valkyrie, so you are within the 9" needed for the Hotshot-Lasguns RapidFire Range.

Or am I wrong here?

You can’t disembark in 9” or less from an enemy unit. Scions exit and are at a length of >9” away, so no rapid fire or triggering of the Stormtroopers doctrine.

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

And I feel like "any point during it's move" could be within 9".
Or is there another rule, that takes effect.
I'm sorry, if I sound like a smartass or something like that. In fact I feel rather clueless...

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

[...]Space Marines probably have the weakest motor pool in the game. [...]

Harlequins say hi.

Taurox Primes say hi and wave hello.

Taurox Primes are part of a motor pool that also includes Manticores and Basilisks.

Not when playing pure Militarum Tempestus. Then the motor pool is Taurox Primes—overcosted, and Valkyries—just nerfed.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the new ruling, but the grav chute insertion didn't change that much. You still can leave the valkyrie, so you are within the 9" needed for the Hotshot-Lasguns RapidFire Range.

Or am I wrong here?

You can’t disembark in 9” or less from an enemy unit. Scions exit and are at a length of >9” away, so no rapid fire or triggering of the Stormtroopers doctrine.

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

And I feel like "any point during it's move" could be within 9".
Or is there another rule, that takes effect.
I'm sorry, if I sound like a smartass or something like that. In fact I feel rather clueless...

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Nibbler wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

[...]Space Marines probably have the weakest motor pool in the game. [...]

Harlequins say hi.

Taurox Primes say hi and wave hello.

Taurox Primes are part of a motor pool that also includes Manticores and Basilisks.

Not when playing pure Militarum Tempestus. Then the motor pool is Taurox Primes—overcosted, and Valkyries—just nerfed.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the new ruling, but the grav chute insertion didn't change that much. You still can leave the valkyrie, so you are within the 9" needed for the Hotshot-Lasguns RapidFire Range.

Or am I wrong here?

You can’t disembark in 9” or less from an enemy unit. Scions exit and are at a length of >9” away, so no rapid fire or triggering of the Stormtroopers doctrine.

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

And I feel like "any point during it's move" could be within 9".
Or is there another rule, that takes effect.
I'm sorry, if I sound like a smartass or something like that. In fact I feel rather clueless...

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

damn... sorry guys. I didn't duoble check that with the codex...
So, that's a problem

A problem ? We know people be fearin dem hellguns, some people say hot shot, I say hellguns. So any case, they be afraid of them hellguns, good thing they kept them bad boys in check.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
A problem ? We know people be fearin dem hellguns, some people say hot shot, I say hellguns. So any case, they be afraid of them hellguns, good thing they kept them bad boys in check.

I kind of a get them thought. They had removed the threat of brother hood champion, that was blocking the sells of all other melee characters, and with him gone, they had to reign in his hard counter, otherwise no one would be buying those new abadon models. From a financial point of view it makes sense.

To those complaining about CP farming.

How many times does GW need to NOT address this before you understand that it is a part of the game that GW is ok with?

So now overwatch happens "as it if was your shooting phase".

Scenario: I have an acid spray tyrannofex that did not move in my movement phase. Because it did not move in my movement phase, it can shoot all of its weapons twice in the shooting phase. In your turn, you charge it. Do I get to overwatch shoot you with my acid spray twice because
1. I did not move in my previous movement phase and
2. Overwatch happens as if it was my shooting phase?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So now overwatch happens "as it if was your shooting phase".

Scenario: I have an acid spray tyrannofex that did not move in my movement phase. Because it did not move in my movement phase, it can shoot all of its weapons twice in the shooting phase. In your turn, you charge it. Do I get to overwatch shoot you with my acid spray twice because
1. I did not move in my previous movement phase and
2. Overwatch happens as if it was my shooting phase?

This is a bit 50/50, but due to the fact that stratagems that specify in the shooting phase can only be used in the shooting phase I would assume the same thing applies here.

 kastelen wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So now overwatch happens "as it if was your shooting phase".

Scenario: I have an acid spray tyrannofex that did not move in my movement phase. Because it did not move in my movement phase, it can shoot all of its weapons twice in the shooting phase. In your turn, you charge it. Do I get to overwatch shoot you with my acid spray twice because
1. I did not move in my previous movement phase and
2. Overwatch happens as if it was my shooting phase?

This is a bit 50/50, but due to the fact that stratagems that specify in the shooting phase can only be used in the shooting phase I would assume the same thing applies here.

"With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’."

If it's not a stratagem that's allowing you to shoot twice, you're fine shooting twice even when firing overwatch. Vice versa would also apply - a Chaos Decimator can't use a C-beam cannon to fire overwatch if it moved in its last turn.

 kastelen wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So now overwatch happens "as it if was your shooting phase".

Scenario: I have an acid spray tyrannofex that did not move in my movement phase. Because it did not move in my movement phase, it can shoot all of its weapons twice in the shooting phase. In your turn, you charge it. Do I get to overwatch shoot you with my acid spray twice because
1. I did not move in my previous movement phase and
2. Overwatch happens as if it was my shooting phase?

This is a bit 50/50, but due to the fact that stratagems that specify in the shooting phase can only be used in the shooting phase I would assume the same thing applies here.

That whole "'as if it was the shooting phase' means all rules apply that would apply in the shooting phase except rules that explicitly only apply in the shooting phase" is a bit hard to wrap your head around.

Then comes question is it YOUR shooting phase on enemy turn. Rule doesn't specify just "shooting phase" but YOUR shooting phase.

Similarly russ won't shoot twice as it says following shooting phase. That's over by the time enemy assault phase comes. It's not just any shooting phase but following one.

As I understand it, stratagems that state they have to be used in the shooting phase does not effect overwatch. Skills, relics, traits etc. that say "as if you were in the shooting phase" or affect shooting phase directly apply in overwatch.

So, the Leman Russ shoots twice on overwatch, if it remained stationary or drove slowly.

E// I see we have some conflicting ideas here.
My explanation: Russ remains stationary in the movement phase -> shoots twice (Leman Russ can fire its weapons twice if it remained stationary in the previous movement phase...) -> shoots overwatch twice -> is in the shooting phase again and remained stationary in the previous movement phase.

E2// Wording is a terrible thing.

 Hawky wrote:
As I understand it, stratagems that state they have to be used in the shooting phase does not effect overwatch. Skills, relics, traits etc. that say "as if you were in the shooting phase" or affect shooting phase directly apply in overwatch.

So, the Leman Russ shoots twice on overwatch, if it remained stationary or drove slowly.

Since when is enemy charge phase FOLLOWING shooting phase? The shooting phase that followed movement phase is already over.

tneva82 wrote:
Then comes question is it YOUR shooting phase on enemy turn. Rule doesn't specify just "shooting phase" but YOUR shooting phase.

Similarly russ won't shoot twice as it says following shooting phase. That's over by the time enemy assault phase comes. It's not just any shooting phase but following one.

What? No! That means nobody would ever be able to use overwatch. BaconCatBug is going to love this one...
Common sense dictates that if you have permission to shoot 'as if it were the shooting phase' then the shooting phase referred to would have to be yours. Otherwise your permission would be utterly meaningless - you're never allowed to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase!

Ah, wait, I checked the rule. I suppose for the grinding advance rule, the 'following shooting phase' can be argued to have passed. I'd assume that's not RaI, but a case could be made for RaW. The Tyrannofex still gets to shoot twice though.

Does that mean minuses to hit would now apply to overwatch shooting?

You hit on unmodified 6 anyway IIRC, so it won't change much.

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

damn... sorry guys. I didn't duoble check that with the codex...
So, that's a problem

It is a shame as it is easily fixed by altering the second sentence so the whole rule reads.

‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but if they do they cannot move further during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain. Models that disembark in this manner must be set up more than 9" from any enemy models unless they have the AERIAL DROP ability in which case they disembark normally.'

Is there a query line to pass on such suggestions?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Does that mean minuses to hit would now apply to overwatch shooting?

Minuses to hit always effected overwatch, but a to hit roll, not result of a 6 is needed in overwatch.
Ie. You shoot at something with -1 to hit you hit on 6 but overheat on 1 or 2.

It's more for the interaction of things like forewarned, auspex scan etc.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

damn... sorry guys. I didn't duoble check that with the codex...
So, that's a problem

It is a shame as it is easily fixed by altering the second sentence so the whole rule reads.

‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but if they do they cannot move further during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain. Models that disembark in this manner must be set up more than 9" from any enemy models unless they have the AERIAL DROP ability in which case they disembark normally.'

Is there a query line to pass on such suggestions?

That would be the rules team email: 40kfaq@gwplc.com

The_Real_Chris wrote:

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

damn... sorry guys. I didn't duoble check that with the codex...
So, that's a problem

It is a shame as it is easily fixed by altering the second sentence so the whole rule reads.

‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but if they do they cannot move further during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain. Models that disembark in this manner must be set up more than 9" from any enemy models unless they have the AERIAL DROP ability in which case they disembark normally.'

Is there a query line to pass on such suggestions?

I assume that this was a deliberate nerf of the Scions from the Vigilus Drop Force as opposed to an accidental nerf that they could/would fix. I was enjoying using a little Drop Force as a Distraction Carnifex. It can still do that with Plasma Guns, but the Hotshot guns and stormtroopers' doctrine are, sadly, relegated to the backseat of the Taurox once again since they never survive the ensuing opponent's turn.

And so the identity crisis Scions suffer from had increased a little more. I'm glad I didn't get any of them.

I'm not seeing how Russes get to shoot twice. That ability only applies during the shooting phase. Overwatch takes place during the Charge phase. It says handle shooting like normal, but it does not say "as if it were the shooting phase"

 Hawky wrote:
And so the identity crisis Scions suffer from had increased a little more. I'm glad I didn't get any of them.

Scions don’t have an identity crisis. All the ol’ hellgun and stormtroopers types just don’t want to move onto the superior killer design and two-syllable “Scions.”

 Ordana wrote:
To those complaining about CP farming.

How many times does GW need to NOT address this before you understand that it is a part of the game that GW is ok with?

These changes may see CP farming reduced in power. You might have a bunch of CP, but what are you fueling with it? With all the big stuff losing their efficiency with force multipliers we may start to see a lot more variety.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
To those complaining about CP farming.

How many times does GW need to NOT address this before you understand that it is a part of the game that GW is ok with?

These changes may see CP farming reduced in power. You might have a bunch of CP, but what are you fueling with it? With all the big stuff losing their efficiency with force multipliers we may start to see a lot more variety.

The only thing lost is a Castellan rotating Ion shields.
So you drop the Castellan down to a Crusader and bring back smash captains. Viola we can burn infinite CP in a turn again.

I don't see how you think these changes have reduced the need for CP.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^aka primaris stuff. So no wonder why I don't think of it.

You might not, but GW definitely should! For example, it is silly that Intercessors have three bolter variants, but two of them are so bad that they might as well not exist.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

That's the text:
Pa ge 117
– Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point
during its move, but if they do they cannot move further
during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.’

The next sentence in the rule says that models that have disembarked using this rule can not be set up within 9” of enemy models.

damn... sorry guys. I didn't duoble check that with the codex...
So, that's a problem

It is a shame as it is easily fixed by altering the second sentence so the whole rule reads.

‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but if they do they cannot move further during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you
must roll a D6 for each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain. Models that disembark in this manner must be set up more than 9" from any enemy models unless they have the AERIAL DROP ability in which case they disembark normally.'

Is there a query line to pass on such suggestions?

This doesn't follow the recent trends on getting things within 9" in the first turn. What you're suggesting is if the comtents of the valkyrie has a rule that allows a form of deepstrike then they can be set up within 9" of enemy.