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the_scotsman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Am I the only one who agrees that vehicles shouldn't get Bolter Discipline? Also, I think it's a little unfair to say that they lost it, when in fact, they never officially had it to begin with.

Semantics. They had it in a very real sense for many people, in that they were using the rule as it was. The fact it was beta doesn't change that.

I think they should have just said that Hurricane Bolters didn't get it, rather than all Bolters on vehicles. But it's fine.

Yeah, you definitely wouldn't just have sarcastic "oH sO cEnTuRiOnS wErE sO oP???" posts then.

Well, we all know that it's impossible to win with these things! Whatever change you make it will piss off someone haha

 Stux wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Am I the only one who agrees that vehicles shouldn't get Bolter Discipline? Also, I think it's a little unfair to say that they lost it, when in fact, they never officially had it to begin with.

Semantics. They had it in a very real sense for many people, in that they were using the rule as it was. The fact it was beta doesn't change that.

I think they should have just said that Hurricane Bolters didn't get it, rather than all Bolters on vehicles. But it's fine.

I like that they don't have it, but don't think it's a big deal. Having it on vehicles was just an oddity. Marine vehicles are mainly logistics or support, and I'd rather Marines were balanced with their vehicles being logistics or support than gunboats.

I (and just about everyone else) still think Marines are in a bad place. But I don't think leaving it as impacting vehicles would get them balanced - it just further threw off the identity of the book.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
Just had an interesting chat about whether Reborn Drukhari might still be worth a look. More flexibility in list building (no real cabal/cult division) and different sets of stratagems/traits etc.

I think the issue is that it removes at least as much flexibility as it adds.

Yes, you can mix detachments . . . but why would you want to?

The only detachment really worth mixing to unlock is the Brigade (anything else and you're probably better off splitting up your army for extra CPs). However, with Coven and Mandrakes being removed entirely (and Incubi as crap as ever), you'll seriously struggle to find anything meaningful to fill the Elite slots with. This also means that the only half-decent HQ choice is gone, leaving you with just the Archon and Succubus. On the plus side their buffs work on both Kabal and Cult units. On the minus side, their bonuses are crap. I guess it gives you the option of taking a Succubus over an Archon for reasons of cheapness but then you're left with a "melee HQ" who is absolutely worthless in melee.

Furthermore, you're losing out on a good deal of DE stratagems in favour of a smaller pool - including some that are outright worse (e.g. the Ynnari Fire and Fade costs twice as many CPs as the DE one). Not to mention the fact that the Ynnari trait is a melee ability on an army that is banned from using its best melee units (Grotesques and Talos).

Ice_can wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
So, let me get this right the Caste won't be a meta pick because if the other player has one it'll nuke it before the other one goes.

Which would make it not reliable. So wouldn't it make sense then after a bit of time other players will stop taking it, then you'll be safe to take it again as you won't run into mirror matches as often as its a risky pick ?

I mean it was in fact a bit too cheap, at least the imperial version for what it did so now that you're paying a good amount and it's no longer an auto include, it's a never pick ?

This all might be why I never enjoy to chase the meta, unless a pick is a no brainer broke choice, it's awful trash and once it's made fair, it's garbage and should be sold off as utter rubbish. Just seems like such an odd way to play the game. Especially when it can still smash, it's just a smash you pay a proper amount for.

Your also forgetting Slamguinius is coming in hot back from his timeout.

Choas now have some MW spamming version aswell as finding some thunder hammers at the back of Failbadon's wardrobe.

And 40 points of chumps no longer provide 100% immunity to charging ever.

Yes, but there is this huge interplay of smash captains, bananas, assassins, ogryns, and castellans. I'm pretty sure a callidus or eversor can guard the castellan from captain smash.

Another factor in the Castellan debate should be that your kind of locked into Cawl's Wrath as your Heirloom.

A Crusader see's a Smash Captain, it can take Sanctuary as the Heirloom, and Rotate in the combat phase and now has a 4++ in hth. That really blunts a Smash Captain.

Reemule wrote:
Another factor in the Castellan debate should be that your kind of locked into Cawl's Wrath as your Heirloom.

A Crusader see's a Smash Captain, it can take Sanctuary as the Heirloom, and Rotate in the combat phase and now has a 4++ in hth. That really blunts a Smash Captain.

If the opponent has a smash and nothing the Castellan needs Cawl's to kill then why wouldn't it take Sanc as well?

Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Another factor in the Castellan debate should be that your kind of locked into Cawl's Wrath as your Heirloom.

A Crusader see's a Smash Captain, it can take Sanctuary as the Heirloom, and Rotate in the combat phase and now has a 4++ in hth. That really blunts a Smash Captain.

If the opponent has a smash and nothing the Castellan needs Cawl's to kill then why wouldn't it take Sanc as well?

The could... of course is 1CP for a Crusader to Rotate. Its 3CP for the Castellan.

the_scotsman wrote:
Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

How are you using Mandrakes in a Ynnari detachment?

the_scotsman wrote:
Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

Trueborn with Shredders, they're amazing anti infantry. However, this brings us back to the main quandry of why bother, they're strictly better as Flayed Skull or Obsidian Rose.

Reemule wrote:


The could... of course is 1CP for a Crusader to Rotate. Its 3CP for the Castellan.

Depending on the matchup that could be a nominal cost and then the Castellan has the edge against the Crusader lists.

Should be interesting to see what people do. I think aside from the top 10% people won't want to chuck their Castellan regardless.

2 Crusaders, or even 2 of the melee weapon/main gun variant of Questorus Knights, with 4++ (1 from WL trait, the other from Rotate Ion Shields) is actually a bit scarier to me than 1 Castallen even with the 3++ from before.
That's 48 T8 4++ wounds to get through over 28 T8 3++ wound. And the former is only 1CP, not 3 so less of a drain for the Knight player.

It costs a bit more in points and if you kill one of them, that's half the fire power, but as an Eldar player that doesn't run Skyweavers, I only have 1 trick to down a Knight per turn: Linked Fire Prisms against a Jinxed target.
So I'll kill one of those Knights for sure now, but it won't leave me enough to down the other.
But this is GOOD for the game. Less eggs in one basket for the Knight/ImpSoup player allowing them to keep up the threat level on multiple turns.

-

Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

Trueborn with Shredders, they're amazing anti infantry. However, this brings us back to the main quandry of why bother, they're strictly better as Flayed Skull or Obsidian Rose.

I've got a mixed Ynarri detachment in a list I'm trying out tonight. It's a battalion, the units I want are a unit of Reavers ,a Hypex succubus and Yvraine (to cast spells that buff the Reavers, mainly). I can fit that in a patrol, sure but +60 points in Kabalites to get 5CP instead seems better. I also already have Flayed Skull venoms in my force, 2 with no occupants and, sure, the opportunity cost of 2 of my Kabalites not being Flayed SKull exists, but its only 20 shots (out of >100) and in return I get extra resilient, super killy Reavers.

Just to quickly justify the super killy reavers comment: They have +1A drug and can (if necessary) use an Advance and Charge strat, making them capable of moving at Red Grief speed. They also get Reroll Wounds (strat or power) and +1 to hit early on, plus reroll 1s to hit even outside of Succubus Range (psy power). This gives them 3 attacks each hitting on 2s reroll 1s, S4 AP-1 reroll to wound. This is better against all targets than even another +1 Attack, so they are killier than any reavers DE can produce and are a good target for the Doom Lite that Yvraine is packing.

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Crusaders generally point up to about 500. So yes, 1k points.

The argument holds though. The Castellan's new price is exactly the cost of 2 Gallants. 48 wounds, T8, and the same save.

As a Knight player my lists are generally something like 3x Crusaders, 2x Helverins, 1 Warglaive. Or Porphyrion, 2x Crusaders, Helverin. Or Stryrix, 2x Crusaders, Warden, Assassin.

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Unless you put all the bells and whistles on them (carapace weapons, etc), I think it comes in just over 800pts. So only 100-200pts more than the Castellan now.

-

Drager wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

Trueborn with Shredders, they're amazing anti infantry. However, this brings us back to the main quandry of why bother, they're strictly better as Flayed Skull or Obsidian Rose.

I've got a mixed Ynarri detachment in a list I'm trying out tonight. It's a battalion, the units I want are a unit of Reavers ,a Hypex succubus and Yvraine (to cast spells that buff the Reavers, mainly). I can fit that in a patrol, sure but +60 points in Kabalites to get 5CP instead seems better. I also already have Flayed Skull venoms in my force, 2 with no occupants and, sure, the opportunity cost of 2 of my Kabalites not being Flayed SKull exists, but its only 20 shots (out of >100) and in return I get extra resilient, super killy Reavers.

Just to quickly justify the super killy reavers comment: They have +1A drug and can (if necessary) use an Advance and Charge strat, making them capable of moving at Red Grief speed. They also get Reroll Wounds (strat or power) and +1 to hit early on, plus reroll 1s to hit even outside of Succubus Range (psy power). This gives them 3 attacks each hitting on 2s reroll 1s, S4 AP-1 reroll to wound. This is better against all targets than even another +1 Attack, so they are killier than any reavers DE can produce and are a good target for the Doom Lite that Yvraine is packing.

My comment was specifically towards what you'd run in a Brigaid for the elite slot, but I think your way of doing it in using 30pt Kabalite units as a very cheap troops tax is the better way. My problem with your list is the Reavers themselves, even with all of those buffs thats still only 9 S4, AP -1 D1 attacks for about 60pts on every 3 Reavers you take and they are going to be very easy to kill. For me Reavers are one of the few actually bad units in the Drukhari codex.

Personally I'm going to be running an Ynnari Patrol tomorrow with Yvraine, Troope Master and a squad of 12 Troopes, 5 with Caresses, deep striking. Yvraine has Ancestors Grace to effectively give them re-roll hits and Word of the Phoenix to bring the ablative wounds back to life whilst the Troope Master gives them the re-roll wounds.

 Galef wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Unless you put all the bells and whistles on them (carapace weapons, etc), I think it comes in just over 800pts. So only 100-200pts more than the Castellan now.

-

Absolute bare bones is 904 for 2 Crusaders.

 Stux wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Unless you put all the bells and whistles on them (carapace weapons, etc), I think it comes in just over 800pts. So only 100-200pts more than the Castellan now.

-

Absolute bare bones is 904 for 2 Crusaders.

Ah, I was thinking Wardens/Paladins/Errants then.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Unless you put all the bells and whistles on them (carapace weapons, etc), I think it comes in just over 800pts. So only 100-200pts more than the Castellan now.

-

Absolute bare bones is 904 for 2 Crusaders.

Ah, I was thinking Wardens/Paladins/Errants then.

-

I don't know if I can see that becoming a new standard? It might, but a loyal 32 + 2 Crusaders + a smash captain is a lot of points, and that doesn't leave all that much room. You'd be basically saying I will table you or lose, and there's a lot of armies who could just get too many wounds on the board for that to happen.

 Imateria wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nevermind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandrakes seem like fine elite-slot fillers. Beastmaster in a pinch?

Trueborn with Shredders, they're amazing anti infantry. However, this brings us back to the main quandry of why bother, they're strictly better as Flayed Skull or Obsidian Rose.

I've got a mixed Ynarri detachment in a list I'm trying out tonight. It's a battalion, the units I want are a unit of Reavers ,a Hypex succubus and Yvraine (to cast spells that buff the Reavers, mainly). I can fit that in a patrol, sure but +60 points in Kabalites to get 5CP instead seems better. I also already have Flayed Skull venoms in my force, 2 with no occupants and, sure, the opportunity cost of 2 of my Kabalites not being Flayed SKull exists, but its only 20 shots (out of >100) and in return I get extra resilient, super killy Reavers.

Just to quickly justify the super killy reavers comment: They have +1A drug and can (if necessary) use an Advance and Charge strat, making them capable of moving at Red Grief speed. They also get Reroll Wounds (strat or power) and +1 to hit early on, plus reroll 1s to hit even outside of Succubus Range (psy power). This gives them 3 attacks each hitting on 2s reroll 1s, S4 AP-1 reroll to wound. This is better against all targets than even another +1 Attack, so they are killier than any reavers DE can produce and are a good target for the Doom Lite that Yvraine is packing.

My comment was specifically towards what you'd run in a Brigaid for the elite slot, but I think your way of doing it in using 30pt Kabalite units as a very cheap troops tax is the better way. My problem with your list is the Reavers themselves, even with all of those buffs thats still only 9 S4, AP -1 D1 attacks for about 60pts on every 3 Reavers you take and they are going to be very easy to kill. For me Reavers are one of the few actually bad units in the Drukhari codex.

Personally I'm going to be running an Ynnari Patrol tomorrow with Yvraine, Troope Master and a squad of 12 Troopes, 5 with Caresses, deep striking. Yvraine has Ancestors Grace to effectively give them re-roll hits and Word of the Phoenix to bring the ablative wounds back to life whilst the Troope Master gives them the re-roll wounds.

It's 60 points for 3 if they also do mortal wounds sometimes, which is a nice perk of the unit. 9 S4 AP -1 attacks for 60 points is not bad combined with the movement to get wherever. As I said, they have the attacks they need to kill Eldar Fliers or entire Ork Boy mobs, for 200-250 points and have the ability to keep being relevant if even one is alive. They have alot going for them.

Agreed, and Loyal 32 + 2 Crusaders is already 3 detachments, so it leaves no room for Smash Captains at all for a 3 detachment limit.
Although I could see some players leaning more into 3 Knights (6CPs) + Loyal 32 lists with added tanks or whatever

Possibly 2 Crusaders (1 as WL and 1 for Rotate Ion shield) and 1 Gallant to run up the field as a distraction.
Or many might still take the Castellan and basically pay the extra points but get CPs as a consolation (because you aren't spending 3CPs per turn for the 3++ anymore)

-

All this talk about knights makes me wish so hard they would fix barbed heirodules into playable.


Let them ignore 1 AP and double shoot or +1 to hit if they don't move and they work.

tneva82 wrote:
Now castellan gets into point where rather than it why not take porypho...whatever the thing is called. T9, more wounds, hits on 2+ and guns that makes castellan go green with envy. 2d3 shots vs d6 which is lot better and flat 6 damage? Oolalaa reliability goes up a lot.

Main reasons for not taking Porphyrion would be that it cost a lot of money and is a giant unwieldy lump of resin.

You're not just paying for the model, but also the ability to give your competitors resin poisoning with a 4++ for 1CP.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now castellan gets into point where rather than it why not take porypho...whatever the thing is called. T9, more wounds, hits on 2+ and guns that makes castellan go green with envy. 2d3 shots vs d6 which is lot better and flat 6 damage? Oolalaa reliability goes up a lot.

Main reasons for not taking Porphyrion would be that it cost a lot of money and is a giant unwieldy lump of resin.

Not to mention that moving from d6 volcano shots + 2d6 Cawl's Wrath shots to 4d3 magna-lascannon shots cuts down on your versatility and ability to casually RFP multi-wound infantry a lot, and the Castellan's secondary armament (four meltaguns, two of the gun turrets, and the shieldbreaker missiles) are a heck of a lot more effective than the Porphyrion's two lascannon or autocannons and one missile pod, and Exalted Court specifically works on Dominus and Questoris-class Knights so you can't put Ion Bulwark on an Acastus or Cerastus Knight...

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now castellan gets into point where rather than it why not take porypho...whatever the thing is called. T9, more wounds, hits on 2+ and guns that makes castellan go green with envy. 2d3 shots vs d6 which is lot better and flat 6 damage? Oolalaa reliability goes up a lot.

Main reasons for not taking Porphyrion would be that it cost a lot of money and is a giant unwieldy lump of resin.

It's also terrible at killing armies that have no big models. It could kill maybe 6 to 8 infantry models a turn with a pile of useless super lascannon shots.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now castellan gets into point where rather than it why not take porypho...whatever the thing is called. T9, more wounds, hits on 2+ and guns that makes castellan go green with envy. 2d3 shots vs d6 which is lot better and flat 6 damage? Oolalaa reliability goes up a lot.

Main reasons for not taking Porphyrion would be that it cost a lot of money and is a giant unwieldy lump of resin.

The porphy is kind of a pain. I've never successfully finished a game without breaking something off it, be it a hose or a piece of the back armor.

It is pretty effective on the table though. Easily guns down Knights, and is pretty resistant to damage in turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now castellan gets into point where rather than it why not take porypho...whatever the thing is called. T9, more wounds, hits on 2+ and guns that makes castellan go green with envy. 2d3 shots vs d6 which is lot better and flat 6 damage? Oolalaa reliability goes up a lot.

Main reasons for not taking Porphyrion would be that it cost a lot of money and is a giant unwieldy lump of resin.

It's also terrible at killing armies that have no big models. It could kill maybe 6 to 8 infantry models a turn with a pile of useless super lascannon shots.

Mine does better than that. Average is 8 Magna laser, 4 Autocannon, and 3.5 from the Ironstorm, hits on a 2+, it will slag 10-12 models. Also 9 Str8 melee attacks isn't something to discount.

And its not like it fights alone. With it easily able to handle all anti armor, your other options should be much more anti horde orientated.

Reemule wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:
Isn't 2 crusaders basically 1000 pts? That's a much bigger investment than the old Castellan being 600...

Crusaders generally point up to about 500. So yes, 1k points.

The argument holds though. The Castellan's new price is exactly the cost of 2 Gallants. 48 wounds, T8, and the same save.

As a Knight player my lists are generally something like 3x Crusaders, 2x Helverins, 1 Warglaive. Or Porphyrion, 2x Crusaders, Helverin. Or Stryrix, 2x Crusaders, Warden, Assassin.

How does you list with big P perform in events? I've been pondering getting one for a while, and with the new changes to castellan now might be an appropriate time.

Reemule wrote:


Mine does better than that. Average is 8 Magna laser, 4 Autocannon, and 3.5 from the Ironstorm, hits on a 2+, it will slag 10-12 models. Also 9 Str8 melee attacks isn't something to discount.

And its not like it fights alone. With it easily able to handle all anti armor, your other options should be much more anti horde orientated.

Yea, but that's the same situation as the Castellan would have faced with tons of IS on hand.

I'm still doubtful.