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 Apple Peel wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
*tin foil hat engaged*

GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"

GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"

GW exec " I see.... squat them then"

GW rules writer "understood sir"

There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.

my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
*tin foil hat engaged*

GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"

GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"

GW exec " I see.... squat them then"

GW rules writer "understood sir"

There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.

my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.

I’m sure Grey Knights could force some tech Priest on Titan to figure their unique geneseed into the mix.

I have, own and play a Supreme Command detachment of Draigo, Voldus, and a GMDK.

It was a nerf, but 2++ wasn't ever really meant to be in the game. It felt more like an exploit when I went 2++.

I am not going to say GK needed this nerf, but I hope it opens some design space in the theorized upcoming GK dex.

I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.

 Apple Peel wrote:

I’m sure Grey Knights could force some tech Priest on Titan to figure their unique geneseed into the mix.

i mean it took belisarius cawl (the top Tech priest basically) 10k years to perfect the primaris recipe, i doubt some techpriest could quickly/easily modify the recipe for it to work with grey knights, which have a part of the Emperor's geneseed (scpeculation). It would be pretty cool to see update Greyknights primaris but honestly, if you want some you can just use greyknight helmets + arms and stick them on primaris bodies

2++ is a cupcake. Having one unit with 2++ doesn't make the 21 point power armor guys less insanely overcosted.

Kindly refrain from using such language to describe game mechanics - BrookM

 Smotejob wrote:
I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.

I think you are alone in this. I think nearly everyone understood this was a oversight, and not intended.

 Smotejob wrote:
I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.

Having a 2++ save through a stratagem is not doing something about it. GK are broken at a fundamental level and essentially always have been. Having all the souped up gear on a basic marine chassis just doesn't work out, they are trying too much to be all around threats and it hurts them on the points front. Everyone is a psyker that can teleport, with a storm bolter, and a force weapon, but has 1 wound and a 3+ save.

They worked OK in 5e, when they all could be S5, and have S 5 storn bolters, but even then outside of paladins actual GK were not generally competitive, it was Vehicles and Dreads.

I think for them to work 2 things would need to happen.

1.) NO Soup
2.) GW would need to price same name marine units differently book to book based on how the book functions not on how the unit compares in a vacuum. GK might get cheaper Land Raiders and Terminators (significantly so) as a trade off for having slightly more expensive marine bodies and fewer options but if regular marines are 13 Strikes should probably be 16-17 with all gear. SO you end up with a slightly smaller more elite force, but not so small as to be crippling.

As a general rule ++2 is probably a bad thing, specially if the rest of the army is good. But am not sure that somehow ++2 for GK made the army break the meta. Other armies have a ton of rules that are faction specific, which would be broken for other factions. Yet those are viewed as characterful and important to the game setting.

Maybe GW should just unglue GK from the meq stat line. Even replace and recost the weapons. This way changing GK bolters or psycannons won't mean they have to fix hvy bolters for normal marines.

2++ is a cupcake. Having one unit with 2++ doesn't make the 21 point power armor guys less insanely overcosted.

Im don't think so, specially in the everything else is overcosted situation. This is one model, which still gets killed by mortal wounds spam. People often say play the objective, ignore things you can't kill. Why not do that if you play vs GK, and it is not even that hard considering how few they are of them. As a bonus the ++2 on the NDK master is on a NDK master and not on a warlord titan or castellan.

And make them what? Custodes? There is no design space between S4 T4 and S5 T5. GW done fethed up.

Martel732 wrote:
And make them what? Custodes? There is no design space between S4 T4 and S5 T5. GW doen fethed up.

Why not? why can't custodes be the CEQ with the jetbikes, stormshields, jump packs etc. And GK the CEQ with psychic powers and wierd guns. If there is place for 4 eldar factions and a bucket of marines, there sure is enough space for two custodes stats armies.

Plus it doesn't have to just or only be the dude stats. It can be the stats of their weapons. you know dark reapers, if they were to run around with shuriken catapults would kind of a suck. Maybe GK need their blessed ammo to not be a 2 CP stratagem, but something build in to their weapons.

but there are smarter people then me that probably have better ideas.

Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.

My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.

Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.

In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.

Karol wrote:
As a general rule ++2 is probably a bad thing, specially if the rest of the army is good. But am not sure that somehow ++2 for GK made the army break the meta. Other armies have a ton of rules that are faction specific, which would be broken for other factions. Yet those are viewed as characterful and important to the game setting.

Maybe GW should just unglue GK from the meq stat line. Even replace and recost the weapons. This way changing GK bolters or psycannons won't mean they have to fix hvy bolters for normal marines.

2++ is a cupcake. Having one unit with 2++ doesn't make the 21 point power armor guys less insanely overcosted.

Im don't think so, specially in the everything else is overcosted situation. This is one model, which still gets killed by mortal wounds spam. People often say play the objective, ignore things you can't kill. Why not do that if you play vs GK, and it is not even that hard considering how few they are of them. As a bonus the ++2 on the NDK master is on a NDK master and not on a warlord titan or castellan.

The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.


Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.

Martel732 wrote:
And make them what? Custodes? There is no design space between S4 T4 and S5 T5. GW done fethed up.

They could model the basic GKT around Paladin Paragons and PAGK as WS 2+ primaris, with army wide shrouding (-1 to hit at 12"+) and more of an emphasis on squad psychic powers and teleportation mobility/shielding.

As i've said before they'd fit in well as a third arm of the talons. Where they don't work is as overequipped tactical marines.

They could do that, I suppose.

As for changing the stats, I don't think that is needed, I think in a non-soup world making GK termies say 25 points and Strikes 17-18 etc would work fine because they would be good but not broken.

Breng77 774803 10431205 wrote:

The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.


Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.

But even with soup it wasn't like GK were winning events left and right. Plus why would anyone added NDK to IG, if pre FAQ for more you could have a castellan or a crusader?

Reemule wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.

I think you are alone in this. I think nearly everyone understood this was a oversight, and not intended.

False. Someone a couple posts ahead said something similar.

Reemule wrote:
Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.

In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.

Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.

Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.

Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.

My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.

Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.

Karol wrote:

Breng77 774803 10431205 wrote:

The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.


Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.

But even with soup it wasn't like GK were winning events left and right. Plus why would anyone added NDK to IG, if pre FAQ for more you could have a castellan or a crusader?

The 2++ thing is always more about the experience it gives rather than it winning all the time. It also isn't Pre-FAQ. Either way I think they just have a hard "No invul better than a 3++, rule" The soup argument is largely because someone previously said, "Well GK don't have much CP so they will run out and not have a 2++ , and that does not hold true when they can ally guard for Cheap CP.

IN the end some change to their cost/stats is needed, I think cost is the way to go as I cannot really see a realistic stat change that helps them.

Karol wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.

In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.

Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.

Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.

Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.

My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.

Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.

I give you BA and GK in 8th ed as models people can't use. Well, they can use them if they want to lose. At what point is a squatting more intellectually honest?

Don't get me wrong, 2++ is a terrible game mechanic and should be removed. However, the army does need some army wide durability. I actually like to offensive output of my Grey Knight Army. I often shock people with how much damage I do put out. However, my biggest complaint about the army has always been how easy it is to destroy my expensive units. It is a very glass cannon army, without enough cannon to justify the glass.

I rather like the cost per model and want our models to remain the price they are. I like the offensive output of the army. I am just frustrated by how easy it is to kill grey knights. They are an elite army with "the best armory in the Imperium" but they often topple over just slightly more difficult than guardsmen.

I would love to see GW add some army-wide durability to the army. I don't know the best way to make this happen. Psychic powers would be thematic, but marines, in general, should also be more durable than their current state. I would imagine making all marines more durable and then added another psychic table? or giving us a warlord trait that can ignore the rule of 1 for psychic powers?

Honestly, there are many ways to make the grey knights easily playable with just a warlord trait, another psychic power or two and a couple of new strategms. Only if there was a format for such releases.

 Smotejob wrote:
Don't get me wrong, 2++ is a terrible game mechanic and should be removed. However, the army does need some army wide durability. I actually like to offensive output of my Grey Knight Army. I often shock people with how much damage I do put out. However, my biggest complaint about the army has always been how easy it is to destroy my expensive units. It is a very glass cannon army, without enough cannon to justify the glass.

I rather like the cost per model and want our models to remain the price they are. I like the offensive output of the army. I am just frustrated by how easy it is to kill grey knights. They are an elite army with "the best armory in the Imperium" but they often topple over just slightly more difficult than guardsmen.

I would love to see GW add some army-wide durability to the army. I don't know the best way to make this happen. Psychic powers would be thematic, but marines, in general, should also be more durable than their current state. I would imagine making all marines more durable and then added another psychic table? or giving us a warlord trait that can ignore the rule of 1 for psychic powers?

Honestly, there are many ways to make the grey knights easily playable with just a warlord trait, another psychic power or two and a couple of new strategms. Only if there was a format for such releases.

I"m not shocked. That's why I don't derp my way into double tap/assault range.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. GK should ALL be counted as veterans. They have no scouts. Literally every guy has a suit of Terminator armor in the closet for when he wants it.

Give all infantry +1 attack, buff the special weapons (psycannon with +1 shot, assault, cheaper), give characters full smite, and give them better and more psychic powers.

They'd turn into a psychic version of Deathwatch, which is what they are supposed to be.

Something that might be relevant, a mono Grey Knights army won the Briscon 2019 ETC Tournament.

About 68 participants total, the winner played against some fairly good lists.

Reddit Discussion here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bi7x5j/pure_grey_knights_just_won_an_itc_major/

Games streamed here:
https://www.twitch.tv/downunder_network/videos

Army list:

Brother Captain (halberd + storm bolter) - warlord 112
Loremaster, Gate of Infinity, Hammerhand, Fury of Deimos

Lord Kaldor Driago 180
Gate of infinity, Astral Aim

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight (Great sword) 205
Sanctuary

Apothecary 75
Astral Aim

Paladin Squad (10 models) 514
Gate of infinity, 4x psilencers, 2x Warding stave, 8x halberd

Purifier squad (10 models) 210
Vortex of doom, 10x falchions

Purgation squad (5 models) 105
Sanctuary

Land raider (2x twin lascannon + twin heavy bolter + storm bolter) 299

Land raider (2x twin lascannon + twin heavy bolter + storm bolter) 299

Wow, so few command points

Some guy wins a 35 man event with pure GK..

I’ll say.. So? I think the only take away I have from that is.. he is good and lucky?

nevermind.

Karol wrote:

My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.

Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.

Tell that to the people who only collected Squats. Or Bretonians. Or Corsairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
...That said some of the FAQ answer and then changes kind of imply either the rules team arn't exactlly all on the same page, or they don't actually play the rules as they wrote them they play them as the intended them to be played.

That's not a GW problem, everybody does that. It's why software firms have separate QA departments, nobody is immune to overlooking problems when they know how something is supposed to work.